HAL Advanced Light Helicopter Dhruv

[enlightened1]

Dhruv at ILA 2008 in Germany
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vML4ozxYWLg

 

[Rahul Singh]

I said they must not be choosy about allowing domestic aircraft. The loss of Western models illustrates the point that India is more concerned with inducting domestic brands than aviation safety.

To what and whom, you exactly are referring to? If you are pointing towards LOH deal and cancellation of Eurocopter on technical grounds. Then you should know that neither of the contender satisfied the forces. Yet they went for Eurocopter because they didn't had the choice and time..... Currently, repeated testing of DHRUV at altitudes shows that Indian forces are near set to take DHRUV as filler till HAL LOH is ready.

JAA or FAA is not the last word in "Aviation Safety". DGCA certification is not below standard or one who comprises safety. It is standard enough to say safe flying, although not as fancy as western certification. So by continuously saying that Indian forces are compromising on Aviation Safety by not giving impotence to JAA or FAA is only making stupid of you.

Why you bring tanks into it is of no relavence to this conversation.

I brought it because your quote was in general not in specific.

I already did the first time.

Oh! That part must have been in Russian. Heck, i learn English not Russian because it is western and does not comprises on @#$%^**!!!

 

[mattster]

You don't know anything about the Dhruv..do you? It's been in active service since 2002..& what is this Dhruv fiasco BS? They bought nine helicopters & unfortunately one crashed..which aircraft doesn't have a crash rate?..even their air-chief said it was due to pilot error. Dhruvs fly on a daily basis to Siachen with no problem..it was designed to do that whereas other choppers have to be heavily modified.
LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: SPECIAL: Dhruv Shakti In Siachen

This was the first crash, next time HAL will have the experience on how to deal with it.

The countries buying the Dhruv don't seem to know that it's India's first helicopter isn't it?

Here is a link about Dhruv crashes.

Dhruv helicopter crash - Google Search


BTW : Including the Ecuador crash, and the ones in India - there have been at least about 3 to 4 crashes.

I am sure eventually HAL will iron out all the issues, but I am not convinced that India's aerospace industry and HAL in general is ready for any big time export orders.

 

[enlightened1]

Here is a link about Dhruv crashes.

Dhruv helicopter crash - Google Search

& what am i supposed to do with it?

BTW : Including the Ecuador crash, and the ones in India - there have been at least about 3 to 4 crashes.

good information mining...only 1 crash has been fatal..so?

I am sure eventually HAL will iron out all the issues, but I am not convinced that India's aerospace industry and HAL in general is ready for any big time export orders.

Really? why?

 

[Vladimir79]

To what and whom, you exactly are referring to? If you are pointing towards LOH deal and cancellation of Eurocopter on technical grounds. Then you should know that neither of the contender satisfied the forces. Yet they went for Eurocopter because they didn't had the choice and time..... Currently, repeated testing of DHRUV at altitudes shows that Indian forces are near set to take DHRUV as filler till HAL LOH is ready.

Sure, like the lack of cooperation between HAL and Eurocopter on the Shakti didn't have anything to do with it. An RFP where Eurocopter wins makes the Dhruv redundant. Bell and Boeing didn't want to have anything to do with the tender so India had no choice but to cancel it.

JAA or FAA is not the last word in "Aviation Safety". DGCA certification is not below standard or one who comprises safety. It is standard enough to say safe flying, although not as fancy as western certification. So by continuously saying that Indian forces are compromising on Aviation Safety by not giving impotence to JAA or FAA is only making stupid of you.

Why don't you quit the patriotic flag waving and wake up to reality? DGCA is below FAA and JAA standards which is why FAA and ICAO have to audit DGCA to bring them up to international code. DGCA readily accepts FAA and JAA without question. FAA and JAA do not accept DGCA. Your lack of understanding is only making stupid of you.

I brought it because your quote was in general not in specific.

The topic of discussion is pretty obvious, aviation safety standards. Bringing tanks into it is idoitic.

Oh! That part must have been in Russian. Heck, i learn English not Russian because it is western and does not comprises on @#$%^**!!!

Just because you only hear what you want to and ingnore facts doesn't mean it wasn't said.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Sure, like the lack of cooperation between HAL and Eurocopter on the Shakti didn't have anything to do with it. An RFP where Eurocopter wins makes the Dhruv redundant. Bell and Boeing didn't want to have anything to do with the tender so India had no choice but to cancel it.

Don't know from where you are bringing SHAKTI into it. On cancellation of the contract. Well, it was widely reported that contract was canceled because Eurocopter had fielded CIVILIAN variant not a military variant. This in addition to other irregularities lead to the the cancellation.

Why don't you quit the patriotic flag waving and wake up to reality? DGCA is below FAA and JAA standards which is why FAA and ICAO have to audit DGCA to bring them up to international code. DGCA readily accepts FAA and JAA without question. FAA and JAA do not accept DGCA. Your lack of understanding is only making stupid of you.

Did i ever said DGCA is above FAA? All i said that DGCA is standard enough to say safe flying and this why DHRUV have contracts from likes of ONGC, NDMA, etc. And all i had said is not for waving Patriotic Flag. Examples shows what upto DGCA is.

The topic of discussion is pretty obvious, aviation safety standards. Bringing tanks into it is idoitic.

Oh really. I think you need to re-squeeze the idea. That sentence was all to show the choosiness of Indian Armed Forces and . So, no idio*tic! However, it could be for you only. Because..........

Just because you only hear what you want to and ingnore facts doesn't mean it wasn't said.

No man, i do not ignore facts. Although i skip that section of any body's post, where they start using pathetic "WEST is BEST" theory(under camouflage) to prove their assumption. And this is exactly, what you are doing here.

 

[venkat]

vladimir! which russian supplied helo to india meets FAA and JAA standards? i recall russians can only talk of Ghosts (sorry it is GOST) standard every where! right from nuts and bolts to mizziles and to aircrafts! Do you have cross reference to GOST and FAA?
i remember reading trishulgroup blog regarding DHRUVs compliance to mil specs!
http://trishulgroup.blogspot.com/search?q=dhruv

 

[Vladimir79]

Don't know from where you are bringing SHAKTI into it. On cancellation of the contract. Well, it was widely reported that contract was canceled because Eurocopter had fielded CIVILIAN variant not a military variant. This in addition to other irregularities lead to the the cancellation.

Do you really believe that? yxaxa It was a light utility tender, weaponised variants were a formality since no armed testing took place. The models were identical in every important aspect. Eurocopter was cancelled for two reasons, one was the possible corruption of Indian officials on the deal, the second was the lack of cooperation from Turbomeca on Shakti. India grew tired of the French dragging their feet to increase performance so they punished them by cancelling the RFP. India never intended to buy Eurocopter in the first place. It was all a ruse to get them to speed up Shakti. I dare say it failed.

Did i ever said DGCA is above FAA? All i said that DGCA is standard enough to say safe flying and this why DHRUV have contracts from likes of ONGC, NDMA, etc. And all i had said is not for waving Patriotic Flag. Examples shows what upto DGCA is.

What does Indian agencies buying Indian helicopters have to do with helping your case? It only shows that India is more concerned with buying their own products and waving the patriotic flag. There is nothing wrong with that, if they meet the highest safety standards. Problem is, they don't. At least not yet.

Oh really. I think you need to re-squeeze the idea. That sentence was all to show the choosiness of Indian Armed Forces and . So, no idio*tic! However, it could be for you only. Because..........

Because... you don't know tanks can't fly? Aviation safety is all we are concerned with here.

No man, i do not ignore facts. Although i skip that section of any body's post, where they start using pathetic "WEST is BEST" theory(under camouflage) to prove their assumption. And this is exactly, what you are doing here.

If that is only theory, then explain to me why DNGC must use the FAA to audit them to bring them up to international code? Look forward to that answer. :twizt:

 

[Vladimir79]

vladimir! which russian supplied helo to india meets FAA and JAA standards? i recall russians can only talk of Ghosts (sorry it is GOST) standard every where! right from nuts and bolts to mizziles and to aircrafts! Do you have cross reference

Here are Russia's certified EASA (JAA) helo's

Ka-26D
Ka-32A
Mi-8
Mi-17
Mi-171
Mi172

JAA | Licensing Type Ratings - List of Helicopters

i remember reading trishulgroup blog regarding DHRUVs compliance to mil specs!

Doesn't mean much unless it gets the certs

 

[venkat]

MI-17 an improved version of the old MI-8. definetely MI-8 didnt have any of the ccertifications ,when it was supplied to india in the cold war era. MI-171 and Mi-172, i dont think we have them. Ka- series operated by IN are also old. non of them have FAA! ithink FAA is more stringent than JAA!

 

[RPK]

Indigenous Development of Helicopters

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has designed & developed the Advance Light Helicopter (ALH) in 5.5 ton category to suit the requirement of our Armed Forces. The Light combat Helicopter (LCH) and Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) are both at the development stage.

HAL has so far delivered 22 ALHs to Indian Air Force (IAF) and 40 to Army. Contracts for supply of 159 ALHs to Army and IAF were signed in December 2007. These Helicopters are planned to be delivered during 2009-2016.

Around Rs. 6273 crores have been collected by HAL from Army and IAF against delivery of Helicopters, milestone payments for the Helicopters contracted and Design & Development of LCH, LUH & weaponization of ALH.

 

[RPK]

HAL To Supply 159 Helicopters


State-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will supply 159 Advanced Light Helicopters (ALH) to the Army and the Indian Air Force from this year till 2016 at a cost of $1.25 billion.

MM Pallam Raju, Minister of State for Defence informed the parliament that HAL has so far delivered 22 ALHs to Indian Air Force (IAF) and 40 to the Army. Contracts for supply of 159 ALHs to the Army and IAF were signed in December 2007. These Helicopters are planned to be delivered during 2009-2016.

HAL has designed and developed the Advance Light Helicopter (ALH) in 5.5 ton category to suit the requirement of our Armed Forces. In addition, homegrown Light combat Helicopter (LCH) and Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) are at the development stage.
The LCH will be used as an attack helicopter, would weigh around 5.5 tons, be able to fly for three up to a height of six kilometers and be powered by two engines. It will carry a homegrown gyro-stabilized sighting system comprising a high-performance thermal imager and laser rangefinder with a four-kilometer detection range of a NATO tank target.

While HAL is now exploring a foreign partner for its indigenous Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) programme. The LUH programme will be separate from the ongoing Dhruv advanced light helicopter and light combat helicopter programmes.

 

[RPK]

Crash of Helicopter Manufactured by HAL

PIB Press Release

Advance Light Helicopter (Dhruv) sold to Ecuadorian Air Force by HAL crashed in Quito during a military parade injuring two of its pilots, recently. Ecuadorian Air Force have successfully carried out several missions on Dhruv Helicopters in their difficult terrains. As per the reported statements, it appears that the Helicopter may have been manoeuvred excessively. The built-in safety features ensured that both the Pilots walked away without any major injuries after crash landing.

HAL has assured the Ecuadorian Government that HAL will meet all the contractual obligations and are committed to provide full support required by Ecuadorian Air Force. There have been no indications that existing potential customers have viewed this accident as a setback on Dhruv Helicopters’ capabilities.

 

[bengalraider]

Mauritius police dhruv

 

[Rahul Singh]

Do you really believe that? yxaxa.

Yes i do. For it, i have very simple and straight forward reason. And that is, i have all the reason in the word to believe what have been publicly reported by free media of a free and democratic nation than to your words. On the other hand, to me, your words gives impression that you might be burning from inside because DHRUV have not only made your nation lose Indian market but also started defeating your nation on foreign soil.

It was a light utility tender, weaponised variants were a formality since no armed testing took place. The models were identical in every important aspect.

Precisely, that was a tender floated to acquire "Armed Aeroscouts" for multirole uses. Apart from logistics these choppers were supposed to do provide armed support to high altitude heliborne operations and real time battlespace observations at high altitudes. Presently, two variants( both armed and unarmed) of Cheetah(SA.315B lama) are used by IA and IAF in northern sector for the same purpose these new aeroscouts were supposed to come in but as a replacement.

Identical or not, violation of terms of contract is a major issue. One should note that India is not a privet property of anybody and everyone have to come by rules.

Following information(in quote) gives the detail.

EADS had offered India AS550 C3 Fennec military version with an Arriel 2B engine but instead sent AS350 B3 Ecureil civilian variant with Ariel 2B 1 engine for trial.

The sources said Defence Ministry had given permission for the trial of the AS550 C3 model with an Ariel 2B engine, whereas no clearance of the Ministry was taken for trial of AS550 B3 model with an Ariel 2B 1 engine.

Describing it a "deviation", the sources said it could be approved only by the Defence Minister after it was processed by the Defence Procurement Board (DPB), which was not done in this case.

The procurement of a helicopter other than the one approved by the Defence Acquisition Council(DAC) is not permissible under Defence Procurement Policy-2006, which specifies that " a technical offer once submitted should not be materially changed subsequently."

The sources said once these discrepancies came to the notice of the Defence Ministry, it referred the matter to Central Vigilance Commission (CVC) which agreed with the Ministry that there were "major deviations from the approved parameters in terms of both engines and platforms." In view of this, the Ministry has now directed the Army to float a fresh RFP for the helicopters.
LINK

The Bell-407 dropped out last year after the machine it sent for evaluation could not perform a three-axis vector, an essential requirement for flying in areas like the Siachen Glacier in Jammu and Kashmir.

The three-axis vector enables the helicopter to perform a 'U' like manoeuvre to navigate adverse weather conditions in mountainous areas.
LINK

Eurocopter was cancelled for two reasons, one was the possible corruption of Indian officials on the deal, the second was the lack of cooperation from Turbomeca on Shakti. India grew tired of the French dragging their feet to increase performance so they punished them by cancelling the RFP. India never intended to buy Eurocopter in the first place. It was all a ruse to get them to speed up Shakti. I dare say it failed.

Corruption/unfair conduct by Indian official(stupid cold war era officers) was a major issue. Links above clearly points towards that but contract breaching was nevertheless minor atleast not under present arms procurement policy.

On Shakti. I'll believe if you put something concrete(links).
HAL will soon order Shakti in excess of 200 for W-ALH and LCH. Their comfort shows that "all is well" at least now. Now you can keep on saying " I dare say it failed". But i believe(capitalizing on all indications) that it got through. Initial 'Red Taping' creating obstacles are common but this doesn't mean "lack of cooperation" and blah blah blah. Negotiations for FGFA, MTA etc are the classic examples.

What does Indian agencies buying Indian helicopters have to do with helping your case? It only shows that India is more concerned with buying their own products and waving the patriotic flag. There is nothing wrong with that, if they meet the highest safety standards. Problem is, they don't. At least not yet.

Everyone who buys DHRUV is not waving Indian Flag, at least not to help my case. These organizations are autonomous organisations and free to choose what they want. They have selected DHRUV because they are satisfied with its performance and above all it suites their requirements. BTW there are many non-Indian civilian organisations who are interested in DHRUV. I don't think they are doing this to support me or they are interested in waving Indian Flag. The only reason, imo, why they are interested in Dhruvs is because of its outstanding ability and versatility. Having said this, i don't think they are unaware of DHRUV not having either FAA or JAA. May be, unlike you, they take bilateral certifications as sufficient.

I would like to mention that fancy certification is not all, at the end of the day performance do counts and most of the time it does. And this is reason why, IAF - one of the largest operator of IL-76 - doesn't bother about this jet not having certifications like JAA and FAA.

Because... you don't know tanks can't fly? Aviation safety is all we are concerned with here.

May be i am not knowing. But this thread is not all about 'Aviation Safety'. It is about DHRUV. And when i say DHRUV it automatically includes all available and related dimensions.

If that is only theory, then explain to me why DNGC must use the FAA to audit them to bring them up to international code? Look forward to that answer. :twizt:

I think you mean DGCA. If yes? Go ahead, otherwise please discard.

It is not a hidden secret that DGCA uses latest FAA's FAR as the base to give certification to aircrafts which are due to fly in Indian airspace. And what better way than putting mother of FAR to audit.

After saying this, I think DGCA's act itself shows how much strict they are about aviation safety norms and itself proves that certification by them is not biased and meets highest aviation safety standards.

 

[s_bman]

Pilot error caused Dhruv crash in Ecuador: Probe
December 15, 2009 10:36 IST
http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/dec/15/pilot-error-caused-dhruv-crash-in-ecuador-says-pro

In a big relief to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, pilot error was found to have caused the crash of the India [ Images ]-made Advance Light Helicopter 'Dhruv' in Ecuador in October, a probe conducted in the United States and India into the mishap has revealed.

The crash, during a military parade on October 28 in the South American country, injuring two pilots, was considered a major setback to India's efforts to market its indigenous helicopters overseas.

The Ecuadorian Air Force, which bought five Dhruvs from the Bangalore-headquartered HAL, had grounded the entire fleet till the probe was completed.

However, the probe findings have come as a big relief for HAL, which has identified South America as one of the key export markets for Dhruv. The probe revealed that 'over-manoeuvre of the pilot' led to the crash.

"The pilot had taken a very deep left turn. Because he took the left turn, he went down in height and didn't have sufficient time to recover and hit the ground," a senior HAL official said.

An Ecuadorian investigation team was at HAL last week, armed with an independent probe -- conducted with the help of the flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder -- that it had carried out in Washington.

"They had gone to the US and conducted a neutral investigation there. They didn't tell us the results. They came here and we did the probe. Then they (Ecuadorean team) told us whatever they did in Washington exactly matches the results that they got here," the official said.

HAL can't make the probe results public because it has a non-disclosure agreement with the Ecuadorian Air Force, he said

 

[SATISH]

Well I guess the sharp left turn made the aircraft to stall and due to lesser altitude couldnt recover...or it must have obstructed the airflow into the engines by the vortices created by the rotors. Just my wild guess.

 

[Sridhar]

Wednesday, December 16, 2009

It's Official: Ecuadorian Dhruv Crash By Pilot Error

It's what even the Ecuadorian air chief said on the day of the crash. And as reported consistently here on LiveFist, it was indeed cyclic saturation caused by a hard left by the pilots that caused the Dhruv to rapidly lose altitude, tip over and go down. Sources say that the conclusion was drawn as much from the analysis in the US of the FDR/CVR as from the direct testimony of the pilots of the crashed chopper and the one flying directly behind them. More details soon. For now, the HAL folks in Quito can breathe just that little bit easier. But only just.

LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: It's Official: Ecuadorian Dhruv Crash By Pilot Error

 

[Rahul Singh]

Pilot error caused Dhruv crash in Ecuador: Probe
December 15, 2009 10:36 IST
http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/dec/15/pilot-error-caused-dhruv-crash-in-ecuador-says-pro

A deafening slap to Dhruv critics.

As speculated earlier this chopper eventually saved two precious lives. Out of anything this incident was a perfect demonstration of Dhruv's superior design, particularity in safety department.

On other side. One thing which this incident highlighted is, HAL's inability to take on arms traders better say Arms-Mafia. IMO a power-packed 'P.R' department manned by true professionals is a must for any success which HAL might be hopping to achieve in future with its up coming projects like LOH and LCH.

God-willing they will take lessons and implement changes.

 

[Armand2REP]

Of course it was. Turbomecca makes fantastic engines which were too new to fail.