HAL Advanced Light Helicopter Dhruv

[Jagdish58]

Guess this is old Armed dhruv concept

 

[kstriya]

Can we do a comparison with some of the contemporary ASW helicopters and capabilities of ALH Dhruv MK 3 to better understand the short fall and capabilities of ALH Dhruv MK 3.

 

[kamaal]

Dhruv is mature platform now, but HAL is still not successful in meeting the export potential. Dhruv is cheaper than its competitors ans reliable as well but still the number of export is very small. I think HAL should revive this project and try to do something about the Ecuador mishap.

 

[kstriya]

Dhruv is mature platform now, but HAL is still not successful in meeting the export potential. Dhruv is cheaper than its competitors ans reliable as well but still the number of export is very small. I think HAL should revive this project and try to do something about the Ecuador mishap.

I agree Dhruv is a very mature platform and HAL has downplayed the export potential but the requirement within the country is huge. I fail to understand why HAL is not able to offer all possible variant on Dhruv platform like ASW variant. We plan to have 200 vessels which will require multiple rotary assets like ASW, NMRH and LUH. ASW and NMRH is the area neglected by HAL. I think either HAL is too stretched and it should tie up with a private player to take the ALH platform further and also tap the export potential.

 

[Yumdoot]

This is what happens when there is too much noise. The French engines are very good. We should have proposed a collaboration on premium terms for the helicopter engines. Instead the imbeciles hijack all debate and requirements and the rafale gets promoted. An engine is a far more deserving item for paying premium.

We end up losing on both fronts - no engine growth path for helos and an overrated aircraft.

DM Parrikar should have asked the HAL as to how they plan to climb the ladder of helo development without an engine growth path in hand. Does the HAL plan to remain stuck at the Light Helicopter level for the rest of future?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

We use Shakti Engines on Dhruv MK3 ..

 

[abingdonboy]

Can we do a comparison with some of the contemporary ASW helicopters and capabilities of ALH Dhruv MK 3 to better understand the short fall and capabilities of ALH Dhruv MK 3.

Dhruv is mature platform now, but HAL is still not successful in meeting the export potential. Dhruv is cheaper than its competitors ans reliable as well but still the number of export is very small. I think HAL should revive this project and try to do something about the Ecuador mishap.

I agree Dhruv is a very mature platform and HAL has downplayed the export potential but the requirement within the country is huge. I fail to understand why HAL is not able to offer all possible variant on Dhruv platform like ASW variant. We plan to have 200 vessels which will require multiple rotary assets like ASW, NMRH and LUH. ASW and NMRH is the area neglected by HAL. I think either HAL is too stretched and it should tie up with a private player to take the ALH platform further and also tap the export potential.

I don't understand the fixation on the ASW variant that never was. The ALH was designed purely with the IA and IAF requirements in mind and the ASW variant came much later almost as an after thought and the ALH is thus clearly incompatible for the IN's ASW MRH requirements. If you look at the IN's needs:

4 ton NLUH (utility with limited ASW)
10 ton NMRH (ASW and utility)
12 ton NMRH (ASW and utility)

the 5.5 ton ALH just doesn't fit into the IN's integral requirements; it is too large/heavy for the NLUH bid and far too small (and thus too limited in range and sensor fit) for the 10/12 ton NMRH role.

That said, they (and the ICG) are still ordering the Mk.3 for shore based SAR roles.

The ALH is a HIGHLY succesful project that is in service with more than half a dozen operators, the Ecuador experience was a one off and entirely down to the FAE's inability to operate ANY platform safely (look it up). They were the worst possible export customer and sadly that may have tarnished the ALH's image abroad but its performance in India speaks for itself.

Furthermore, the ALH has lead to both the LCH and LUH derivatives that will be HIGHLY succesful in India (and abroad). I expect there to be a demand for 300+ LCH and easily >1000 LUH.

Now it is time to further build on this success with the IMRH, I hope HAL don't play it safe and go for a 12 ton MRH that can fit the IAF, IA and IN's requirements (in the long term) and can have a 10 ton variant.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

This has been discussed before, ALH are being used by Navy on Navy ships including flag ships, They are on rotation like any other unit ..

This has been posted repeatedly on various threads specifically to your replies ..

the 5.5 ton ALH just doesn't fit into the IN's integral requirements; it is too large/heavy for the NLUH bid and far too small (and thus too limited in range and sensor fit) for the 10/12 ton NMRH role.

 

[abingdonboy]

This has been discussed before, ALH are being used by Navy on Navy ships including flag ships, They are on rotation like any other unit ..

This has been posted repeatedly on various threads specifically to your replies ..

They are NOT being used in the ASW role though. Yes they are being used in the SAR role but this is mostly shore based now.

Once the IN has their new NLUH there will be less of a need for the ALH to be deployed to ships BUT it will continue the shore based SAR role just fine (the IN and ICG have just placed a joint order for 32 Mk.3 for this role).

 

[Jagdish58]

The Ecuador Dhruv was Mk1 / Mk2 variant powered by Turbomeca engine , majority of accidents & mishaps are with Mk1/ Mk2 variant , Yup HAL / MOD should pitch in with offer to replace Ecuador suspended inventory of dhruv with Mk3 version ( Which comes in with Shakti Turbo shaft)

Indian Navy / Coast guard is planning to buy Mk3 version for shore base surveillance since they come with huge array of sensors , Electronic warfare equipment & excellent cock pit features . Mk4 rudra is already inducted with Indian Army

Naval ASW Dhruv previously Navy rejected it had issues like non-foldable rotor , sensors & payload issues
But yes if HAL works with Navy on Mk3 ASW version with all the features , definitely it will be through since Navy has good track record of harbouring indigenous platforms

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Regardless they are for ASW or SAR, Rotation of unit is must as for Any-other helicopter unit they goes under rotation from one station to another, They are not stationary and certainly not dedicated shore based SAR unlike MI-8 and MI-17 units of Navy ..

We are talking abt present not future or near future of 'may' or 'will', More ALH are ordered in absence of large helicopters for SAR duties, Being shore or ship is based on their rotation ..

They are NOT being used in the ASW role though. Yes they are being used in the SAR role but this is mostly shore based now.

 

[Yumdoot]

Nearly all the Indian Navy vessels can take in Chetak (smaller side) and land Sea Kings (larger side). ALH with its two engines is perfect for NLUH also.

And the ASW version itself may happen in time. After all only a few vessels can take host (not just land) the Sea Kings, S-70s and Ka-28. Once the PLAN subs start coming in regularly into the IOR and the Pakis mature, Indian Navy will not have any option by to buy ALH for ASW roles. As it is the Chinese are helping Pakis with the VLF facility. So its only a matter of time.

 

[abingdonboy]

Regardless they are for ASW or SAR, Rotation of unit is must as for Any-other helicopter unit they goes under rotation from one station to another, They are not stationary and certainly not dedicated shore based SAR unlike MI-8 and MI-17 units of Navy ..

We are talking abt present not future or near future of 'may' or 'will', More ALH are ordered in absence of large helicopters for SAR duties, Being shore or ship is based on their rotation ..

Only aircraft carriers (and maybe LHD) have dedicated SAR birds (for obvious reasons) so I imagine these are the only ships the ALH are deployed to. The integral helos for all other types of ship do not have dedicated SAR birds (which is what the ALH in the IN).

I know the ALH SQNs will rotate around naval air stations and carriers/LHD but they won't see that much roation really. They are almost solely shore based SAR assets and this is the need of the hour, there is no shame in employing the ALH in this role.

 

[abingdonboy]

Nearly all the Indian Navy vessels can take in Chetak (smaller side) and land Sea Kings (larger side). ALH with its two engines is perfect for NLUH also.

Not the smallest vessels (NOPVs), they can't land the 5.5 ton ALH, there is a reason the NLUH have to be under 4 tons.

And the ASW version itself may happen in time. After all only a few vessels can take host (not just land) the Sea Kings, S-70s and Ka-28. Once the PLAN subs start coming in regularly into the IOR and the Pakis mature, Indian Navy will not have any option by to buy ALH for ASW roles. As it is the Chinese are helping Pakis with the VLF facility. So its only a matter of time.

The ALH will not be employed by the IN as a dedicated ASW asset, it falls in a very awkward weight class. Consider that most ASW helos are 10 or 12 tons and the 5.5 ton ALH simply doesn't have the endurance to compete with a S-70B (10 tons) or H225M (12 tons). I don't see it as inevitable at all that the IN will buy the ALH for the ASW role, they have made their case and it is fair enough.

HAL aren't even working on the ASW version of the ALH anymore but the IN and ICG are still ordering the Mk.3 for SAR roles.


I am very interested to see the 10-12 ton IMRH, hopefully it is designed from the outset with an ASW variant and to be capable of operating with the navy.

@Kunal Biswas any updates on the IMRH? I am hoping HAL start working on it sooner rather than later, it is going to be a game changer for the Indian military (the Indian Army in particular).

 

[Yumdoot]

@abingdonboy , you have essentially repeated what Col. Ajai Shukla keeps repeating. In fact I doubt if even Col. Ajai Shukla would say it often so because his own views may have been voiced on two different occasions about two different engineering propositions regarding ALH.

Firstly Col. Ajai stated that the blades of ALH overhang the smaller ships that till now used to host only the Chetak. I cannot locate this report but this must have been said when ALH had no folding blades. Some people from there on probably rationalized that to imply that only smaller helos can be taken on NOPV Sukanya Class (1890 tonnes displacement) which is the smallest vessel meant for ocean going from our side and that have anything to do with helicopters.

Secondly Col. Ajai Shukla also said in this article - "between two stools" that ALH is too heavy to be an NLUH and too light to be an ASW helo. This was said before HAL confirmed in an idrw report that Indian Navy has accepted their new segmented blade folding. This again was confirmed by Adml. Dhowan that the Indian Navy is in negotiations for more ALH. Now you could claim that the new negotiations are only for SAR versions but even for those you still need to admit that there may arise a need to have the ALH-SAR land on the smallest NOPV-Sukanya Class. And if the SAR version can land and be folded up then off course the ALH-ASW version too.

The problem with Col. Ajai Shukla’s version of objections is that they are outdated. The simple solution of segmented blades will work. Even the Sukanya Class can host ALH, without doubt. And smaller then Sukanya's is only the 355 odd tonne patrol vessel which has nothing to do with helicopter stationing.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

In case you in navy or part of it somehow, Will take your words ..

INS Satpura air wing consist of a single Dhruv and a Seaking, They were flying over my house ..

I know the ALH SQNs will rotate around naval air stations and carriers/LHD but they won't see that much roation really. They are almost solely shore based SAR assets and this is the need of the hour, there is no shame in employing the ALH in this role.

 

[Yumdoot]

Mod Janab, Maafi mangta hun janab. Jai Hind.

=========

However, I am too mule headed to take heed. Unless off course the orders come from Shri Maharaj Yumraaj. So I take leave to continue in the same vein.

What has happened is that people have been given an impression due to the main stream media reports that ALH as a ASW platform is only second fiddle to S-70B or other such platforms. The little facts like 6 out of 10 Kamovs being allowed to rot, too, must have been leaked and that kind of, officially sets the standards - Only Apple phone kaam karega ji, No Micromax please.

Nothing could be farther from the truth. Mull this:

1) The ALH-ASW was criticized because it was 5.1 meters after folding up. It could easily have been presumed that HAL has good kartavya prarayan engineers on hire who would ask the Indian Navy as to what was the biggest helo they were managing to push into there ship's hangers, after folding up. This presumption requires one to junk the a-priori presumption that - Indian engineers who have never given a thought to a Green Card, are just plain stupid. The fact is that helos like Sea King are substantially in the same ball park width as the ALH-ASW, both considered after being folded (my guess is Sea King is exactly 5.1 meter width from tail rotor position on one side to landing gear position on another side). This is relevant for stowage of ALH-ASW.

2) Fact also is that that overhang issue should not have been brought up at all. Unless the idea was to stupefy the inattentive. Even if you encounter a situation where you have to make a big helo land on a Kora class sized corvette, the option of Helimesh and Helipad nettings is always there. Its not like your small Corvette is going to play Limbo. Ocean is a vast place and the service crew or tools going overboard while manually folding rotors can be caught easily by way of these Helimeshes. Using helimeshes and nets a simple corvette can sport the same width as an Aircarft carrier if it has to.

Fence cum Helimesh and nettings, like this:

&

See you Tomorrow. Bye.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

June 16, 2014

The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited-built ALH Dhruv is undergoing trials for carrying out role of detecting hostile submarines using systems developed by the DRDO, Defense officials said here.

The system was put under trial at Vishakhapatnam and would be tried further before any final decision is taken on deploying the twin-engine chopper on board the carrier, they said.

Source : http://news.rediff.com/commentary/2...vikramaditya/e0735584b58b7c4afb0d89e12ad0ddfc

===================

Probably under service ..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Outstanding ..

Please enter a message with at least 30 characters.

 

[abingdonboy]

@abingdonboy , you have essentially repeated what Col. Ajai Shukla keeps repeating. In fact I doubt if even Col. Ajai Shukla would say it often so because his own views may have been voiced on two different occasions about two different engineering propositions regarding ALH.

Firstly Col. Ajai stated that the blades of ALH overhang the smaller ships that till now used to host only the Chetak. I cannot locate this report but this must have been said when ALH had no folding blades. Some people from there on probably rationalized that to imply that only smaller helos can be taken on NOPV Sukanya Class (1890 tonnes displacement) which is the smallest vessel meant for ocean going from our side and that have anything to do with helicopters.

Secondly Col. Ajai Shukla also said in this article - "between two stools" that ALH is too heavy to be an NLUH and too light to be an ASW helo. This was said before HAL confirmed in an idrw report that Indian Navy has accepted their new segmented blade folding. This again was confirmed by Adml. Dhowan that the Indian Navy is in negotiations for more ALH. Now you could claim that the new negotiations are only for SAR versions but even for those you still need to admit that there may arise a need to have the ALH-SAR land on the smallest NOPV-Sukanya Class. And if the SAR version can land and be folded up then off course the ALH-ASW version too.

The problem with Col. Ajai Shukla’s version of objections is that they are outdated. The simple solution of segmented blades will work. Even the Sukanya Class can host ALH, without doubt. And smaller then Sukanya's is only the 355 odd tonne patrol vessel which has nothing to do with helicopter stationing.

Mod Janab, Maafi mangta hun janab. Jai Hind.

=========

However, I am too mule headed to take heed. Unless off course the orders come from Shri Maharaj Yumraaj. So I take leave to continue in the same vein.

What has happened is that people have been given an impression due to the main stream media reports that ALH as a ASW platform is only second fiddle to S-70B or other such platforms. The little facts like 6 out of 10 Kamovs being allowed to rot, too, must have been leaked and that kind of, officially sets the standards - Only Apple phone kaam karega ji, No Micromax please.

Nothing could be farther from the truth. Mull this:

1) The ALH-ASW was criticized because it was 5.1 meters after folding up. It could easily have been presumed that HAL has good kartavya prarayan engineers on hire who would ask the Indian Navy as to what was the biggest helo they were managing to push into there ship's hangers, after folding up. This presumption requires one to junk the a-priori presumption that - Indian engineers who have never given a thought to a Green Card, are just plain stupid. The fact is that helos like Sea King are substantially in the same ball park width as the ALH-ASW, both considered after being folded (my guess is Sea King is exactly 5.1 meter width from tail rotor position on one side to landing gear position on another side). This is relevant for stowage of ALH-ASW.

2) Fact also is that that overhang issue should not have been brought up at all. Unless the idea was to stupefy the inattentive. Even if you encounter a situation where you have to make a big helo land on a Kora class sized corvette, the option of Helimesh and Helipad nettings is always there. Its not like your small Corvette is going to play Limbo. Ocean is a vast place and the service crew or tools going overboard while manually folding rotors can be caught easily by way of these Helimeshes. Using helimeshes and nets a simple corvette can sport the same width as an Aircarft carrier if it has to.

Fence cum Helimesh and nettings, like this:

&

See you Tomorrow. Bye.

I am not simply repeating Ajai Shukla's worlds (I don't even bother reading that presstitute's words). I am only basing what I'm saying in logic and reason as well as on what facts we have available to us.

The issue with the ALH for the Navy is NOT it's physical dimensions/size but its WEIGHT, which is what I have been sayin until now. If you look at how helicopters (actually all a/c) are rated, it is not by size but by weight class. As such the ALH falls between two weight classes- the LUH (3.5-4 ton) and MRH (10-12 ton) as far as the IN is concerned.

The IN's smaller ships (NOPVs and such) are built house and land Cheetak class NLUH and this is why they have issued a RFP for NLUH (Panther and Bell 429 are frontrunners). Such smaller ships cannot land the heavier 5.5 ton ALH it's as simple as that. Flight decks on naval vessels ahve very specific ratings, the smallest ships in the IN simply haven't been certified to land 5.5 ton helos.

As for the ASW role, it si amply clear the IN does not want a light weight ASW platform (let's not forget the ALH is the Advanced Light Helicopter). The world over, large ships deploy heavy (10 or 12 ton) NMRHs, the ALH is simply too small to house all of the high-end ASW electronics AND to ahve high endurance- this is just simple physics. Why pretend the ALH is going to be as capable as the 10 ton S-70B or 12 ton H225M?

There is a reason the IN has open RFP for 3.5-4 ton NLUH and 10 ton NMRH and 12 ton NMRH DESPITE ALSO inducting the 5.5 ton ALH (mostly for the shore based SAR role).


Why would the IN- the service that favours Indian products more than any other- be needlessly searching for a NLUH or NMRH if the ALH was suitable to replace both? There is not a conspiracy at work here nor is it a criticism of the HIGHLY susccesful ALH project that the ALH isn't being employed in thsi ONE very specific role (integral ASW asset). That doesn't mean it isn't a very suitable SAR asset and that the IN and ICG won't order many of them for this role (and are).


Again, i don't understand why there is so much agitation from these words, the ALH was NEVER meant to be a long range/endurance/high performance ASW platform- it was/is a utility platform (for the IN). There is no shame in that. There is no such thing as a jack of all trades in these matters.

As I have said, time to apply the lessons learnt from the ALH,LCH, LUH and go on to greater things (10-13 ton) IMRH. Why fixate on the ALH?