@abingdonboy
I am sorry if the Ajai Shukla reference and his views on dimensions seemed like a wrongful conflation to you. Overall I believe Shukla ji too, is merely working for the good of India, to the limits of his capacity. I just hope his capacity increases. People just do what they think is in the best interest of they countries. Its just that the information itself is not properly made available to everybody.
Re. NLUH:
ALH has no difficulty meeting either the NLUH requirement nor does it lag in the ASW role. That is why there has always been heavy criticism of it
. ALH is simply too good.
The NLUH-RFP says nothing about the weight restrictions. And IIRC, the NLUH-RFP is released under the Buy & Make India category.
Even if it did, then any competition that is willing to consider a Panther in LUH category, cannot seriously keep the ALH out. ALH weighs about 122 kgs more than Panther (empty weight basis).
And helo stationing requirements with respect to weight are not tight for the Shipboard use as you claim. Here is a link showing a vessel of 1200 tonne full load displacement carrying helo with an empty weight of 2960 kg. The vessel is lighter than the lightest helo capable vessel (Khukri Class at 1350 tonne) that Indian Navy has – also a lesser beam. And needless to add the empty weight of that helo (Bell Agusta AB212-ASW) is about 18%-20% higher than that of ALH.
http://www.helis.com/database/sys/778_Serviola_class/
Hope that convinces you that ALH is not heavy for the NLUH category.
Re. ASW category:
I agree the heavier helos are good for bigger ships and aircraft carriers and I don’t rue the fact that Indian Navy bought as many of them as they have ordered. But even for that category the NH-90 should have been taken because of its much better sensor capabilities. After all, an ASW asset is primarily its sensors. S-70B seems to be a political buy to say thank you for the so called life saving benefits that Indian has enjoyed on account of 123 accord.
Anyhow even here the ALH-ASW is actually better than both the heavier types, from the overall perspective. Because while the NH-90 and S-70B can only be used from the heavier ships the landing of these heavier ASW platforms at the far end of the operating area will not necessarily get an equally big ship. The so called ideal S-70B may well find itself under-utilized, because the only ship available near the outer limit of its range is a Khukri class vessel. Had it been an ALH-ASW it would easily have landed on the Khukri class and replenished and returned to duty in double fast time.
Mostly the requirements are just visions as to the use of the proposed asset. I usually tend to believe in the methods instead of requirements. With methods the weakest equipped have repeatedly beaten bigger foes with well recognized and well met requirements (aka vision).
Now once you get the fun in all these range-calculations you will be forced to admit that the only way to employ an S-70B is to keep it nearer to the bigger vessels it is based out of, say 75 NM max. And nearer that range again the ALH-ASW has advantage because it can take all the sensors and weapons that S-70B can for as long as an ASW helo actually needs to be on station considering the available resources.
If you state that –
It only means you have never gotten round to calculating the weights of different payload combinations possible for given mission requirements considering different landing platforms available. The X-Band radar will be around 100 kg, the dunking Sonar around 400 kg, the sonobuoys each will weigh between 9-15 kg (say 400 kg for 25 of these) and the TAL torpedo each at 250 kg (total 500 kg for 2). The ALH still has space for 1000 kg of fuel if you wish. Though the same fuel may not be needed at all, if you really try to figure out how at the very best an ASW helo can be used. The ASW helos cannot realistically operate, independent of the landing platforms available in a given sector. And in this the ALH will always have the upper hand because of its smaller size. BTW ALH has same installed power as a Sea King with much better disc loading. So that will power up the nearly the same payload if not more. And Sea King is not small. ALH merely packages it all better.
The only reason ‘world navies’ are using heavier helos for ASW is because only of the money power and not because there is any real use for it. The same as F-35 JSF.
BTW a few moneyed navies do not constitute the world’s navies. The real world’s navies are still using the lighter helos for ASW missions.
Anyhow its water under the bridge now that the Indian Navy has already ordered the lousy S-70B only to say thank you to world’s biggest Protection Racketeer for the 123 agreement.
But yes the Indian Navy as an institution is still very much into indigenous capabilities and which is why they have repeatedly expressed interest in the ALH-ASW both by words and deeds. I also agree that HAL has not been able to manage its priorities strategically. HAL could have thought of the segmented blades earlier. HAL could have preempted the vibration issues, entirely. HAL could have offered the pricing better. The whole ASW version could have come earlier even if with foreign sensors (to be later replaced). HAL could insist in the negotiations, or at least could have leaked news to create pressure, that the only version they will supply to the Indian Navy will be the segmented blade version (I wonder if they have).
But in any case the Indian Navy will never be able to command the kind of monetary resources it needs for the vast requirements it actually has to meet. Which will force it to rely on the ALH-ASW, as and when it is made properly available.
Even more importantly no politico in MOD/PMO (not even a laggard like Anthony/MMS) would like to rely on the foreign suppliers for the real fight category. Its simply too risky in political terms.
And do not count the sundry RFIs and RFPs as anything special. It is only a professional’s job to be abreast of the latest which is something to be encouraged. Deals/proposals have been canceled at much-much later stages. The IMRH you had mentioned was only a HAL proposal and that itself is a clear indication that there are gears within gears within gears. Off course the IMRH should have been started by now. That is why I also mentioned the 3-engined variant of Dhruv. But its not (and that is an input worth archiving for later use).
I am sorry if the Ajai Shukla reference and his views on dimensions seemed like a wrongful conflation to you. Overall I believe Shukla ji too, is merely working for the good of India, to the limits of his capacity. I just hope his capacity increases. People just do what they think is in the best interest of they countries. Its just that the information itself is not properly made available to everybody.
Re. NLUH:
ALH has no difficulty meeting either the NLUH requirement nor does it lag in the ASW role. That is why there has always been heavy criticism of it
. ALH is simply too good.The NLUH-RFP says nothing about the weight restrictions. And IIRC, the NLUH-RFP is released under the Buy & Make India category.
Even if it did, then any competition that is willing to consider a Panther in LUH category, cannot seriously keep the ALH out. ALH weighs about 122 kgs more than Panther (empty weight basis).
And helo stationing requirements with respect to weight are not tight for the Shipboard use as you claim. Here is a link showing a vessel of 1200 tonne full load displacement carrying helo with an empty weight of 2960 kg. The vessel is lighter than the lightest helo capable vessel (Khukri Class at 1350 tonne) that Indian Navy has – also a lesser beam. And needless to add the empty weight of that helo (Bell Agusta AB212-ASW) is about 18%-20% higher than that of ALH.
http://www.helis.com/database/sys/778_Serviola_class/
Hope that convinces you that ALH is not heavy for the NLUH category.
Re. ASW category:
I agree the heavier helos are good for bigger ships and aircraft carriers and I don’t rue the fact that Indian Navy bought as many of them as they have ordered. But even for that category the NH-90 should have been taken because of its much better sensor capabilities. After all, an ASW asset is primarily its sensors. S-70B seems to be a political buy to say thank you for the so called life saving benefits that Indian has enjoyed on account of 123 accord.
Anyhow even here the ALH-ASW is actually better than both the heavier types, from the overall perspective. Because while the NH-90 and S-70B can only be used from the heavier ships the landing of these heavier ASW platforms at the far end of the operating area will not necessarily get an equally big ship. The so called ideal S-70B may well find itself under-utilized, because the only ship available near the outer limit of its range is a Khukri class vessel
. Had it been an ALH-ASW it would easily have landed on the Khukri class and replenished and returned to duty in double fast time.Mostly the requirements are just visions as to the use of the proposed asset. I usually tend to believe in the methods instead of requirements. With methods the weakest equipped have repeatedly beaten bigger foes with well recognized and well met requirements (aka vision).
Now once you get the fun in all these range-calculations you will be forced to admit that the only way to employ an S-70B is to keep it nearer to the bigger vessels it is based out of, say 75 NM max. And nearer that range again the ALH-ASW has advantage because it can take all the sensors and weapons that S-70B can for as long as an ASW helo actually needs to be on station considering the available resources.
If you state that –
.
It only means you have never gotten round to calculating the weights of different payload combinations possible for given mission requirements considering different landing platforms available. The X-Band radar will be around 100 kg, the dunking Sonar around 400 kg, the sonobuoys each will weigh between 9-15 kg (say 400 kg for 25 of these) and the TAL torpedo each at 250 kg (total 500 kg for 2). The ALH still has space for 1000 kg of fuel if you wish. Though the same fuel may not be needed at all, if you really try to figure out how at the very best an ASW helo can be used. The ASW helos cannot realistically operate, independent of the landing platforms available in a given sector. And in this the ALH will always have the upper hand because of its smaller size. BTW ALH has same installed power as a Sea King with much better disc loading. So that will power up the nearly the same payload if not more. And Sea King is not small. ALH merely packages it all better.
The only reason ‘world navies’ are using heavier helos for ASW is because only of the money power and not because there is any real use for it. The same as F-35 JSF.
BTW a few moneyed navies do not constitute the world’s navies. The real world’s navies are still using the lighter helos for ASW missions.
Anyhow its water under the bridge now that the Indian Navy has already ordered the lousy S-70B only to say thank you to world’s biggest Protection Racketeer for the 123 agreement.
But yes the Indian Navy as an institution is still very much into indigenous capabilities and which is why they have repeatedly expressed interest in the ALH-ASW both by words and deeds. I also agree that HAL has not been able to manage its priorities strategically. HAL could have thought of the segmented blades earlier. HAL could have preempted the vibration issues, entirely. HAL could have offered the pricing better. The whole ASW version could have come earlier even if with foreign sensors (to be later replaced). HAL could insist in the negotiations, or at least could have leaked news to create pressure, that the only version they will supply to the Indian Navy will be the segmented blade version (I wonder if they have).
But in any case the Indian Navy will never be able to command the kind of monetary resources it needs for the vast requirements it actually has to meet. Which will force it to rely on the ALH-ASW, as and when it is made properly available.
Even more importantly no politico in MOD/PMO (not even a laggard like Anthony/MMS) would like to rely on the foreign suppliers for the real fight category. Its simply too risky in political terms.
And do not count the sundry RFIs and RFPs as anything special. It is only a professional’s job to be abreast of the latest which is something to be encouraged. Deals/proposals have been canceled at much-much later stages. The IMRH you had mentioned was only a HAL proposal and that itself is a clear indication that there are gears within gears within gears. Off course the IMRH should have been started by now. That is why I also mentioned the 3-engined variant of Dhruv. But its not (and that is an input worth archiving for later use).
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