F-35 Joint Strike Fighter

[Immanuel]

There's no 'atleast'. Its an Indefinite quantity/amount order, meaning it can be terminated any year. That 144/200 quantity and $20B is absolute 'cap'.(max)

The requirement for usaf is 64 jets per year. If F35 line satisfies that requirement, then there will be no more F15 orders, since F35 is preferred both by cost and mission capabilities. The only reason F15 is bought is because F35 didnt hit FRP and the line was coming short on deliveries.

Again, you're confusing year or year purchases vs grand strategy. There will be no reduction in F-15EX orders not unless Biden wins even then it's a hard sell. Also you're missing the mere fact that the F-35 was never meant to be a f-15 replacement.

F-35 is great but no where near in terms of pure tonnage/ range of the proposed F-15EX. Moreso, the F-15 can already deploy every type of weapon in USAF arsenal. It's operational costs are well established and the F-35 has been slow to achieve. Again FRP doesn't mean all F-35 are fully combat ready (as per USAF requirements) when rolling off the line since a lot of weapons still need integrating. F-35's operating costs aren't stable yet.

Actually it's the Pentagon that pushed for the F-15EX so it's a done deal, many on both sides of the aisle were lobbied and paid for with hard work.

 

[Bhurki]

Again, you're confusing year or year purchases vs grand strategy. There will be no reduction in F-15EX orders not unless Biden wins even then it's a hard sell. Also you're missing the mere fact that the F-35 was never meant to be a f-15 replacement.

F-35 is great but no where near in terms of pure tonnage/ range of the proposed F-15EX. Moreso, the F-15 can already deploy every type of weapon in USAF arsenal. It's operational costs are well established and the F-35 has been slow to achieve. Again FRP doesn't mean all F-35 are fully combat ready (as per USAF requirements) when rolling off the line since a lot of weapons still need integrating. F-35's operating costs aren't stable yet.

Actually it's the Pentagon that pushed for the F-15EX so it's a done deal, many on both sides of the aisle were lobbied and paid for with hard work.

Tonnage doesn't matter if you can't survive within the A2/AD threat bubble.

The fact that F-15ex was awarded an ID/IQ contract in itself means that pentagon isn't sure if it wants to continue buying it.

If it was sure of buying a set (144)number, it would have gone in for a multi year buy, which would've saved it about 10% of the total cost. This is the norm with literally everything else.

Infact, just this week, it bought $62B of F-16 even when all the FMS buyers are not know yet. Neither have the international contracts been signed, and still it went for a multi year buy.

Just think about it, when's the last time USAF ever bought a tested and certified, not to mention already operational aircraft, in a batch of just 8 ?

 

[Immanuel]

Tonnage doesn't matter if you can't survive within the A2/AD threat bubble.

The fact that F-15ex was awarded an ID/IQ contract in itself means that pentagon isn't sure if it wants to continue buying it.

If it was sure of buying a set (144)number, it would have gone in for a multi year buy, which would've saved it about 10% of the total cost. This is the norm with literally everything else.

Infact, just this week, it bought $62B of F-16 even when all the FMS buyers are not know yet. Neither have the international contracts been signed, and still it went for a multi year buy.

Just think about it, when's the last time USAF ever bought a tested and certified, not to mention already operational aircraft, in a batch of just 8 ?

Again you're missing the point. Around 245 F-15C/D need to be replaced eventually. The F-35 is not a replacement of the F-15. The average F-15C/D have around 8K hours of usage and 35 years in age. Upgrades to this entire fleet was deemed more expensive. You're confusing two programs. One has little to do with another unless you get a very regressive Admin like Obama was after 2020. But in reality with increased issues with China, Russia, Iran and others and year on year defence budget is only being blown out past 750 Billion. Regardless of who is in power defence spending will remain the same.

F-15 C/D/E s are also based extensively in Europe and in the UK/Germany they have nuclear deployment role which is why the F-15E is the first one to be able to deploy the latest upgraded B-63-12 nuclear bomb.

The F-16s are for Taiwan (66), Bulgaria (8), Morrocco (25), Indonesia (32) and others that come along.

Also pound for pound the F-15EX would outclass all 4.5 gen aircraft except for may be a Super MKI on a overall ability. F-15E even in current form can deploy weapons like JASSM-ER (900km), HARM-ER (km range) which frankly none of the Eurocanards can match. Tonnage matters and ability to deploy long range weapons matters even more. Not to mention, it's over mach 2.5 speed makes it an official Speed demon. Many have tried to shoot it down in combat, only few have succeeded.

F-15E becomes first aircraft compatible with new nuclear bomb design

Two successful test launches of B61-12 designs mean the F-15E is ready to go with the newest nuclear gravity bomb design.

www.defensenews.com

It will be the much needed missile truck of the skies.

 

[Bhurki]

Korean military to buy 40 more fighter jets from U.S

Korean military to buy 40 more fighter jets from U.S.

Korea will double the number of F-35 stealth fighter jets it will buy from the United States, including variants that will operate on the country’s first aircraft carrier, according to military sources.

koreajoongangdaily.joins.com

 

[BON PLAN]

It's still outselling that Rafale though.
It's also nice that the delay of a bomb is in your mind, somehow attributed to the F-35.

US is 7 bigger than France. It's not surprising they can sell more items. Fighters is a strong diplomatic weapon in the uncle Sam hands, for years.

All is late with F35. This bomb delay is just another exemple. And during this time, the FOC of the bird is postponed. Again.

 

[BON PLAN]

Yep, more than 500 produced to date vs 200 for the Rafale even though the F-35 first flew in 2006, 20 years after the Rafale's first flight in 1986.

Bull Shit from another F35 noob.

1986 is the flight of the demonstrator Rafale A. The serial product is Rafale C/B/M with a first flight in 1991.
The equivalent is JAST, then JSF with F35. It flew for the first time in 2000.

Next time, check your datas please.

 

[LDev]

Bull Shit from another F35 noob.

1986 is the flight of the demonstrator Rafale A. The serial product is Rafale C/B/M with a first flight in 1991.
The equivalent is JAST, then JSF with F35. It flew for the first time in 2000.

Next time, check your datas please.

OK, to compare like to like, it is 1986 for the Rafale technical demonstrator vs 2001 for the X-35. And then 1991 for the first Rafale prototype vs 2006 for the first F-35. Both flights respectively are still 15 years after the Rafale. And of course the F-35 will sell more than the Rafale. Also the US designs it's fighters to go up against near peer competitors like the Russians or Chinese. While the Rafale is a commendable aircraft, in the kind of coalition operations that France would typically operate in NATO, the Rafale will not be utilized for kicking the doors down specially against the Russians or Chinese. That job will be for the F-22s and F-35s of the USAF and those countries that operating the F-35s. The Rafale's first test against an integrated AD system will be in IAF operations against China if it does come to that.

 

[Flying Dagger]

French used to criticize even F-16 and termed Mirage 2k way better but eventually it turned out F-16 is still in production and have turned out to be a much better jet economically and in capabilities.

Their respective replacement Rafale for French Mirage and F-35 for American F-16 will see the same fate.

It's a fact as far as IAF is concerned F-16 was a no go zone then and F-35 too despite better relationship is still a no go zone for us.

 

[Manticore]

US is 7 bigger than France. It's not surprising they can sell more items. Fighters is a strong diplomatic weapon in the uncle Sam hands, for years.

All is late with F35. This bomb delay is just another exemple. And during this time, the FOC of the bird is postponed. Again.

That really digs at you, huh? Sweden doesn't need to make that excuse with how much gripens there are vs Rafale. Haven't heard anything about the French stealth jet for a while. Still on schedule? Finally, did you even read the cause of the bomb delay? Of course you didn't.

 

[Tactical Frog]

Israel still opposes F-35 sale to UAE, despite normalization deal, senior officials say

***

www.haaretz.com

Seems like UAE will now get the F-35. Wow

The only AF to operate Block-60, Rafale and eventually F-35.

Israel won’t let UAE get F-35. No way. You never know what the next coup or dynasty change may bring.

 

[Tactical Frog]

Yep, more than 500 produced to date vs 200 for the Rafale even though the F-35 first flew in 2006, 20 years after the Rafale's first flight in 1986.

No need to be so biased The actual first flight was in 1991, not 1986. Rafale was redesigned to be stealthier between 1986 and 1991.

Also, what is the point of comparing numbers ? The F-35 is supposed to clear the 3,000 jets bar some day, that was always the plan. Rafale had only support from one country til 2015, while F-35 had support from US, Japan, UK, Italy, Australia, Netherlands, Israel...

 

[Manticore]

No need to be so biased The actual first flight was in 1991, not 1986. Rafale was redesigned to be stealthier between 1986 and 1993.

Also, what is the point of comparing numbers ? The F-35 is supposed to clear the 3,000 jets bar some day, that was always the plan. Rafale had only support from one country til 2015, while F-35 had support from US, Japan, UK, Italy, Australia, Netherlands, Israel...

The actual first flight also applies to when the X-35 was modified to become the F-35, 2000 & 2006.

The facts about the numbers is fair to state to those who call the plane a failure and only bought for diplomacy. Diplomacy won't make the Rafale stovl on a Korean carrier deck. Call it what you will, it is selling.

 

[BON PLAN]

OK, to compare like to like, it is 1986 for the Rafale technical demonstrator vs 2001 for the X-35. And then 1991 for the first Rafale prototype vs 2006 for the first F-35. Both flights respectively are still 15 years after the Rafale. And of course the F-35 will sell more than the Rafale. Also the US designs it's fighters to go up against near peer competitors like the Russians or Chinese. While the Rafale is a commendable aircraft, in the kind of coalition operations that France would typically operate in NATO, the Rafale will not be utilized for kicking the doors down specially against the Russians or Chinese. That job will be for the F-22s and F-35s of the USAF and those countries that operating the F-35s. The Rafale's first test against an integrated AD system will be in IAF operations against China if it does come to that.

1) it's better indeed to compare properly.
2) You're wrong. Rafale enter first and alone in Lybian airspace, without SEAD/DEAD operation. And India, a country that faces 2 fierce potential opponents with russian and chinese weapons, decided to purchase Rafale and not a US product, despite strong pressure from uncle Sam....

 

[BON PLAN]

French used to criticize even F-16 and termed Mirage 2k way better but eventually it turned out F-16 is still in production and have turned out to be a much better jet economically and in capabilities.

Their respective replacement Rafale for French Mirage and F-35 for American F-16 will see the same fate.

It's a fact as far as IAF is concerned F-16 was a no go zone then and F-35 too despite better relationship is still a no go zone for us.

F16 was a versatile and powerfull bird. It's a fact.
Fact is also that the sole F16 shooted down in air to air engagement was the prey of a M2000.... (I don't imagine if it was the opposite....)

 

[BON PLAN]

That really digs at you, huh? Sweden doesn't need to make that excuse with how much gripens there are vs Rafale. Haven't heard anything about the French stealth jet for a while. Still on schedule? Finally, did you even read the cause of the bomb delay? Of course you didn't.

Facts :

Gripen C/D (E/F is another plane) : entry service in 1996. 270 units ordered. Line closed I think (replaced by E/F)

Rafale : entry service in 2005 (F2 french airforce std). 276 units ordered. 30 more to come until 2022 from France. At least a follow on order likely from India. Competition in Switzerland (the deal will be between SH18 and Rafale) and Finland. rumors of an order very soon from Greece.... The final countdown will be > 350.

French stealth jet? SCAF is now funded from France and Germany. But as it is on time, and on budget you will never heard anything about it. Unlike the US stealthy groose.

 

[BON PLAN]

The facts about the numbers is fair to state to those who call the plane a failure and only bought for diplomacy. Diplomacy won't make the Rafale stovl on a Korean carrier deck. Call it what you will, it is selling.

just wait the first REAL engagement...

 

[BON PLAN]

US’ F-35s Jets Not Really Stealth As German, Russian Firms Expose Its Loopholes

US’ F-35s Jets Not Really Stealthy As German, Russian Firms Expose Its Loopholes

If there are any aircraft that are most sought-out for anywhere across the world, they are America’s elite set of F-35 fifth-generation stealth jets. Renowned for their stealth technology, the jets have enabled the US to stamp absolute air dominance as it provides the Air Force, Navy, and...

eurasiantimes.com

 

[LDev]

1) it's better indeed to compare properly.
2) You're wrong. Rafale enter first and alone in Lybian airspace, without SEAD/DEAD operation. And India, a country that faces 2 fierce potential opponents with russian and chinese weapons, decided to purchase Rafale and not a US product, despite strong pressure from uncle Sam....

There is a massive difference between Libyan AD and PLAAF/PLA AD. It is possible to go up against Libya without a dedicated SEAD/DEAD operation, but would you go up against China without one?

As far as India's Rafale buy is concerned, it is because of the wariness that still exists in the Indian military/political establishment about throwing in it's lot 100% with the US. Another equally important reason which flows from the first is the integration of existing and future Indian weapons systems on the bought aircraft. France and India have a history of this. With the US, India will have to begin a whole new set of negotiations. Which by the way are underway. Because a pre-requisite for getting the latest US weapons systems is the signing of the 3 foundational agreements between the recipient country and the US. As of date India has signed 2 of them, LSA and COMCOSA. The 3rd foundational agreement, BECA, is likely to be signed later this year. I think that these 3 agreements with the intelligence information that the US is currently providing India in the China stand off is likely to confirm in the Indian establishment's mind that the US is finally a reliable partner. And at that stage it will be interesting to see if India does finally go in for a US fighter.

 

[LDev]

US’ F-35s Jets Not Really Stealth As German, Russian Firms Expose Its Loopholes

US’ F-35s Jets Not Really Stealthy As German, Russian Firms Expose Its Loopholes

If there are any aircraft that are most sought-out for anywhere across the world, they are America’s elite set of F-35 fifth-generation stealth jets. Renowned for their stealth technology, the jets have enabled the US to stamp absolute air dominance as it provides the Air Force, Navy, and...

eurasiantimes.com

Sour grapes. I think this website has some Turkish connections. The Turks are mad because they have been shut out of the F-35 program after they bought the S-400.

 

[Manticore]

just wait the first REAL engagement...

Thanks for that well thought out rebuttal. I would like to see how Rafale would cope over China as well. Also, the French stealth program is on time and budget because your government doesn't talk about it. Really? That's what you're going with?