F-35 Joint Strike Fighter

[BON PLAN]

yes the F-35 has had very rocky start and several delays but no one else has taken up a program of this scale ever

Apollo?
Polaris missile?
SSBN?

F35 is becoming complicated because LM lost some of its ancient skill.

 

[StealthFlanker]

Absolutely not.
I'm not at home for the week. Next monday I will send you scan of the article, so you can see it's all the truth and anything else.

I literally post the link to the article above
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ing-third-of-f-35s-if-upkeep-costs-aren-t-cut

Ah Ah Ah...
So you are the only one understanding things on this forum? total BS ! .

Well iam not the one who said structure G limit is the deciding factor for agility or stealth only effective from the frontal...and many other laughable stuff

 

[BON PLAN]

I literally post the link to the article above
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ing-third-of-f-35s-if-upkeep-costs-aren-t-cut


Well iam not the one who said structure G limit is the deciding factor for agility or stealth only effective from the frontal...and many other laughable stuff

It's a fact my dear. G factor is one of the deciding factor for agility. Pilot skill, T/W ratio, ITR ... are others. but a 7.5G limited plane in front of a 9G one with same skilled pilot, same classe T/W etc... lose. it's as simple as that.

Stealth is made of shape and material. But in a plane case you can't put all the RAM you want or adopt all the shape you want. So it'a a compromise. No plane is 360° stealthy. So is the F35.

 

[Immanuel]

Apollo?
Polaris missile?
SSBN?

F35 is becoming complicated because LM lost some of its ancient skill.

Please atleast they have skill, the French haven't any.

 

[Immanuel]

It's a fact my dear. G factor is one of the deciding factor for agility. Pilot skill, T/W ratio, ITR ... are others. but a 7.5G limited plane in front of a 9G one with same skilled pilot, same classe T/W etc... lose. it's as simple as that.

Stealth is made of shape and material. But in a plane case you can't put all the RAM you want or adopt all the shape you want. So it'a a compromise. No plane is 360° stealthy. So is the F35.

Complete nonsense of the highest order, wonder why then did a F-4 run circles around the Rafale. Give us a break from your stupidity or evn the Rafale once got lucky with the F-22. Your logic goes to shit went facts are brought in.

 

[Immanuel]

OR NOT !

A 7th Astute is waiting funds.
The Daring Destroyers has no anti ship missile.
The SSBN program is the priority 1.
The Pound has lost 20% of its value.
Brexit is to come, with the maximum effects to come.

See the EF program : GB didn't take all the 232 planes. F35 will follow the same way.

You see the F-35 will have a long life cycle unlike the Rafale or any of this generation aircraft, so UK can always order more in a phased manner, while the Rafale line will probably close around 2025-27, the F-35's willl remain open till well into the 2040s. Brexit will effect short term, long term UK is far better off while most if not all of EU continues to sit on even increasing weight of inconsistent bureacracy. UK will be UK 10 years down the line, EU has a great chance of collapsing under it's own weight.

 

[StealthFlanker]

It's a fact my dear. G factor is one of the deciding factor for agility. Pilot skill, T/W ratio, ITR ... are others. but a 7.5G limited plane in front of a 9G one with same skilled pilot, same classe T/W etc... lose. it's as simple as that.

No, it is absolutely not simple as that.
F-15C structure G-limit is 7.33G, F-16 fbw G limit is 9G, yet F-15 will run circle around F-16 at high altitude.
Or F-14 structure G limit is 6.5G, F-16 G limit is 9G, guess which one have higher ITR and STR? You think it would be the one with higher structure limit? absolutely wrong.

Aircraft agility in general can be divided into several criterias:
1- Instantaneous turn rate (ITR)
2- Sustained turn rate (STR)
3- Acceleration rate
4- Pitch rate
5- Roll rate
6- Post stall maneuver (sort of like very low speed nose pointing)
For an aircraft, there are 3 kind of forces that are most important:
Thrust: pretty self explanatory, created by engine, varied with speed and altitude (air density)
Lift: normally generated by wing (and body if the aircraft is at a positive angle of attack)
To estimate lift, there is this equation
lift = 0.5*Cl*reference wing area*air density*speed^2
CL = lift coefficient, varied with speed and angle of attack
This is the reason why using wing loading as a criteria is actually very dumb if you don't know the actual lift coefficient.
Drag: created by the interaction of the airframe with the air
To estimate drag there is this equation
drag = 0.5*Cd*reference wing area*air density*speed^2
Cd = drag coefficient, varied with speed and angle of attack
in general, higher AoA lead to higher Cl and Cd, up until stall point.

Back to the criterias, i mentioned earlier:
Max G pulled is decided solely by lift/weight, which mean the more lift you can generate, the more G you can pull. Drag and thrust aren't actually important here. At high altitude, air density is lower, which mean the lift generated is reduced, as you can easily deduce from the equation above. So at higher altitude max G you can pull will reduce no matter what your structure limit is
Max G sustained is decided not only by lift and weight but also drag and thrust. Basically, not only that you have to generate enough lift, you need to generate enough thrust to counter the drag that come with that lift. Sustained G reduce even quicker than max G pulled with altitude. Basically, low air density of altitude will reduce your lift, and also your thurst ( unless your aircraft use rocket engine).
Acceleration rate = (Thrust-drag)/Mass and not thrust/weight, people like to talk about thurst/weight value because it is simple and easy to understand but in fact doesn't actually give you the acceleration rate.
Pitch rate: is how fast your aircraft can pint it's nose, it is very different from a turn because you change the AoA rather than the direction of travel
Roll rate: sort of like how fast you can spin, it important to pull away from bandit at your 6. In general, the more mass concentrated at the center, the faster you can roll so single engine aircraft such as F-16 can roll much faster than twin engine aircraft like F-15
Post stall maneuver: basically nose pointing while your aircraft go so slow that it can't turn or pitch normally. Useful to force and overshot then counter but not very useful when adversary have more than one aircraft. In general, aircraft with TVC is obviously best at post stall, followed by aircraft with V tail because their tail can "bite" into airflow at high AoA. Single vertical tail aircraft such as F-16 or Typhoon are very bad at high AoA

In short, structure G limit is not the deciding factor for agility, not even close.

Stealth is made of shape and material. But in a plane case you can't put all the RAM you want or adopt all the shape you want. So it'a a compromise. No plane is 360° stealthy. So is the F35.

There is compromise so you can't have the same RCS value from all direction. But that doesn't mean a stealth aircraft can't be made stealthy around 360 degrees azimuth. Because of the Doppler effect and side lobes clutter, RCS = 10 dBsm at the frontal is very different from 10 dBsm at the side or aft. It is acceptable for stealth platform to have extremely high side RCS because side reflection blends with ground clutter much easier

 

[BON PLAN]

Please atleast they have skill, the French haven't any.

It's this sort of thing Admiral Rickover said about the french SSBN program : "they will failed to fire a missile from a submerged sub".

And you know what? It was a success.

 

[BON PLAN]

Complete nonsense of the highest order, wonder why then did a F-4 run circles around the Rafale. Give us a break from your stupidity or evn the Rafale once got lucky with the F-22. Your logic goes to shit went facts are brought in.

The stupid here is you. And you know that.

So just explain me why the RAF didn't want to train against Rafale since a famous 7-1 in Corsica....
And the RAF planes were not F4, nor Tornado, but brand new EUROFIGHTER...

 

[BON PLAN]

You see the F-35 will have a long life cycle unlike the Rafale or any of this generation aircraft, so UK can always order more in a phased manner, while the Rafale line will probably close around 2025-27, the F-35's willl remain open till well into the 2040s. Brexit will effect short term, long term UK is far better off while most if not all of EU continues to sit on even increasing weight of inconsistent bureacracy. UK will be UK 10 years down the line, EU has a great chance of collapsing under it's own weight.

What a melting pot ! Rafale, F35, EU, UK.... Stop writing just to write. It's all BS.

 

[BON PLAN]

No, it is absolutely not simple as that.
F-15C structure G-limit is 7.33G, F-16 fbw G limit is 9G, yet F-15 will run circle around F-16 at high altitude.
Or F-14 structure G limit is 6.5G, F-16 G limit is 9G, guess which one have higher ITR and STR? You think it would be the one with higher structure limit? absolutely wrong.

Aircraft agility in general can be divided into several criterias:
1- Instantaneous turn rate (ITR)
2- Sustained turn rate (STR)
3- Acceleration rate
4- Pitch rate
5- Roll rate
6- Post stall maneuver (sort of like very low speed nose pointing)
For an aircraft, there are 3 kind of forces that are most important:
Thrust: pretty self explanatory, created by engine, varied with speed and altitude (air density)
Lift: normally generated by wing (and body if the aircraft is at a positive angle of attack)
To estimate lift, there is this equation
lift = 0.5*Cl*reference wing area*air density*speed^2
CL = lift coefficient, varied with speed and angle of attack
This is the reason why using wing loading as a criteria is actually very dumb if you don't know the actual lift coefficient.
Drag: created by the interaction of the airframe with the air
To estimate drag there is this equation
drag = 0.5*Cd*reference wing area*air density*speed^2
Cd = drag coefficient, varied with speed and angle of attack
in general, higher AoA lead to higher Cl and Cd, up until stall point.

Back to the criterias, i mentioned earlier:
Max G pulled is decided solely by lift/weight, which mean the more lift you can generate, the more G you can pull. Drag and thrust aren't actually important here. At high altitude, air density is lower, which mean the lift generated is reduced, as you can easily deduce from the equation above. So at higher altitude max G you can pull will reduce no matter what your structure limit is
Max G sustained is decided not only by lift and weight but also drag and thrust. Basically, not only that you have to generate enough lift, you need to generate enough thrust to counter the drag that come with that lift. Sustained G reduce even quicker than max G pulled with altitude. Basically, low air density of altitude will reduce your lift, and also your thurst ( unless your aircraft use rocket engine).
Acceleration rate = (Thrust-drag)/Mass and not thrust/weight, people like to talk about thurst/weight value because it is simple and easy to understand but in fact doesn't actually give you the acceleration rate.
Pitch rate: is how fast your aircraft can pint it's nose, it is very different from a turn because you change the AoA rather than the direction of travel
Roll rate: sort of like how fast you can spin, it important to pull away from bandit at your 6. In general, the more mass concentrated at the center, the faster you can roll so single engine aircraft such as F-16 can roll much faster than twin engine aircraft like F-15
Post stall maneuver: basically nose pointing while your aircraft go so slow that it can't turn or pitch normally. Useful to force and overshot then counter but not very useful when adversary have more than one aircraft. In general, aircraft with TVC is obviously best at post stall, followed by aircraft with V tail because their tail can "bite" into airflow at high AoA. Single vertical tail aircraft such as F-16 or Typhoon are very bad at high AoA

In short, structure G limit is not the deciding factor for agility, not even close.


There is compromise so you can't have the same RCS value from all direction. But that doesn't mean a stealth aircraft can't be made stealthy around 360 degrees azimuth. Because of the Doppler effect and side lobes clutter, RCS = 10 dBsm at the frontal is very different from 10 dBsm at the side or aft. It is acceptable for stealth platform to have extremely high side RCS because side reflection blends with ground clutter much easier

"F-15 will run circle around F-16 at high altitude" Maybe (F16 was not specially made for high altitude, contrary to F15) but what about low and medium altitude ?

Do you want to compare Gmax, ITR, STR, T/W, roll rate of the Fat Turkey and Rafale ???

And about post stall manoeuver, the Fat Turkey is a bad exemple. Just compare it to a Tornado.

"Single vertical tail aircraft such as F-16 or Typhoon are very bad at high AoA" LOL. A closed coupled canard plane managed the air flow over the wings to create lift AND to energive the flow around the tail. Ask F22 is a Rafale is "very bad" at very low speed and high AoA, despite no vectorised thrust.

 

[StealthFlanker]

"F-15 will run circle around F-16 at high altitude" Maybe (F16 was not specially made for high altitude, contrary to F15) but what about low and medium altitude ?.

low altitude F-16 is better
medium altitude they are about equal.
But the point is structure G -limit is meaningless in most case when you want to evaluate aircraft agility seriously.

Do you want to compare Gmax, ITR, STR, T/W, roll rate of the Fat Turkey and Rafale ???

which one of those criteria do you actually have the real value other than structure G-limit? none.
And as i explained before, T/W is actually useless because:
1- engine thrust varied with speed/altitude/inlet pressure recovery
2- F=ma so acceleration = (Drag-thrust)/mass , thrust/weight is actually meaningless.
3- Aircraft can have very different combat radius and combat time even with the same fuel percentages, because some of them such as F-35, Sukhoi family are designed to carry a significant amount of fuel internally.

And about post stall manoeuver, the Fat Turkey is a bad exemple. Just compare it to a Tornado.
"Single vertical tail aircraft such as F-16 or Typhoon are very bad at high AoA" LOL.Ask F22 is a Rafale is "very bad" at very low speed and high AoA, despite no vectorised thrust.

Yes, Rafale is very bad in post stall situation compared to F-22 /F-35. When was the last time Rafale perform post stall in air show? they didn't and that for a good reason

A closed coupled canard plane managed the air flow over the wings to create lift AND to energive the flow around the tail

LERX have the same function yet the F-16 have to be AoA limited to around 26 deg

 

[BON PLAN]

US urges UK to push ahead with F-35 fighter jets deal

Woody Johnson, the US ambassador to the UK, has urged British ministers to increase defence spending and push ahead with the F-35 programme, echoing Donald Trump’s warning that America’s allies had to become more self-sufficient. UK defence officials are carrying out a wide-ranging review of the UK’s military capabilities. The review is expected to be finished in July, in time for a Nato summit in Brussels that Mr Trump will attend.

Gavin Williamson, the UK defence minister, is pushing chancellor Philip Hammond to increase the amount of money the UK spends on defence from the current level of 2 per cent of GDP, or just over £37bn a year. Military chiefs have feared they could face further spending cuts to pay for a funding shortfall of up to £20bn over the next decade.[Donald Trump] wants everybody involved in mutual defence, not just the US doing everything.

Woody Johnson, US ambassador to UKSpeaking to reporters in London, Mr Johnson said: “You’re going to have to make trade-offs and go through the emotional and practical and philosophical arguments in terms of what you want to do, what you want to be, how important is defence, how you want to be perceived, by the US, but also by Russia and others.“I know the president has stated that he doesn’t want to pay for everything. He’s going to rely on our allies,” he added. “He wants everybody involved in mutual defence, not just the US doing everything.” Mr Johnson was speaking ahead of the arrival in the UK this summer of the first batch of US-made F-35 fighter jets.The programme to build the first 48 of a potential total of 138 F-35s is costing the UK over £9bn (=187 £ million each .....).

While the UK government says it remains committed to buying the full quota of 138 jets from US defence company Lockheed Martin, there has been speculation that Britain could reduce the size of the final order to cut costs. Recommended Analysis UK defence spending UK army unease mounts after decade of ‘underfunding’ Such a move would ease the strain on the finances of the Ministry of Defence. But it could have a knock-on for UK defence companies that form a vital part of the F-35 global supply chain.“The UK is going to make a lot of money. There are going to be a lot of jobs,” Mr Johnson said about the F-35 programme.“To me, as an American, I would be looking at where do we want to be in the future, 10, 15, 20 years from now,” he added. “How important is it to defend yourself? My mission is security and prosperity, and you really can’t have prosperity unless you have security.”

 

[BON PLAN]

which one of those criteria do you actually have the real value other than structure G-limit? none.

Are you serious?

Rafale :
Gmax = 11G (used for exemple during the rafale display solo)
ITR >> 30°/sec
STR > 24°/sec (360° in less than 15sec)
roll rate : 270°/sec (Peter Collins, british test pilot : "The steady state roll rate at 350kt was 270°/s and the roll onset felt rapid but comfortable. At 450kt, the same steady-state roll rate was achieved, but the rate of roll onset was simply staggering. I have never experienced any fighter aircraft start or stop to roll so quickly ..." )
Thrust to Weight Ratio ( for air to air load at sea level ) : 1.10 ~ 1.15 with afterburners , 0.73 to 0.77 without afterburners

And the datas of the Fat Turkey ?

 

[BON PLAN]

LERX have the same function yet the F-16 have to be AoA limited to around 26 deg

Maybe because of air intake limitation, or stall due to the wing arrangment ?
Rafale has its air domain open up to 100° AoA (OK, not so manoeuver there) and 15kt (15kt used by a test pilot during a simulated combat against a M2000)

 

[Armand2REP]

Brexit will effect short term, long term UK is far better off while most if not all of EU continues to sit on even increasing weight of inconsistent bureacracy. UK will be UK 10 years down the line, EU has a great chance of collapsing under it's own weight.

Looking at the UK and its anemic growth rate, soon to be recession, I would beg to differ.

 

[Immanuel]

Rafale :
Gmax = 11G (used for exemple during the rafale display solo)
ITR >> 30°/sec
STR > 24°/sec (360° in less than 15sec)
roll rate : 270°/sec (Peter Collins, british test pilot : "The steady state roll rate at 350kt was 270°/s and the roll onset felt rapid but comfortable. At 450kt, the same steady-state roll rate was achieved, but the rate of roll onset was simply staggering. I have never experienced any fighter aircraft start or stop to roll so quickly ..." )
Thrust to Weight Ratio ( for air to air load at sea level ) : 1.10 ~ 1.15 with afterburners , 0.73 to 0.77 without afterburners

And the datas of the Fat Turkey ?[/QUOTE]
Well Gmax at a air show and G max during combat is completly different, add a couple of heavy stores like fuel tanks and this reduces for all 4.5 gen aircraft including Rafale, Rafale with full load probably can't go beyond 5-6G.

While F-35 is 9 capable wth ful internal load, so there is no comparison. Your Rafale will be gasping to turning while the F-35 will out turn it.

 

[Immanuel]

Looking at the UK and its anemic growth rate, soon to be recession, I would beg to differ.

Same shit can be said about all of Western Europe including France. Decades of laziness to work will do that to countries.

 

[Armand2REP]

Same shit can be said about all of Western Europe including France. Decades of laziness to work will do that to countries.

The closer Britain gets to Brexit, the closer it gets to recession
Jim Edwards

Apr. 29, 2018, 7:16 AM
1,657
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Homeless and unemployed people shelter from the cold in a doorway in Hull, November 3, 2017.
REUTERS/Russell Boyce

• UK GDP growth was just 0.1% in Q1, and Britain is just 11 months away from Brexit.
• The housing market is crashing, and Brits are feeling poorer.
• They've slowed down their consumer spending too.
• Suddenly, this whole Brexit thing is not looking so rosy.

LONDON — The closer Britain gets to Brexit, the closer the country gets to a recession.

UK GDP growth was just 0.1% quarter-on-quarter in Q1, the government reported on Friday. With the March 2019 Brexit deadline now less than a year away, that's "near stagnation," according to economist Chris Williamson of IHS Markit. Over the last 12 months, "The economy was just 1.2% larger than a year ago, the weakest performance for nearly six years," he says.

You can see from this chart that economic growth in the UK (the black line) has been in decline for a while. The EU Referendum did not halt that slowdown.

Pantheon Macroeconomics
Britons are suddenly feeling much poorer than they were a year or two ago. House price growth is declining. The property market is dangerously close to entering an actual contraction. British people can no longer rely on their houses to add significantly to their wealth.

Pantheon Macroeconomics
More worryingly, the forward-looking index of mortgage approvals and new buyer enquiries has collapsed. People don't want to buy houses if they think the value of those houses is going to go down.

Pantheon Macroeconomics
It's not just about houses. Consumers generally are spending less. Consumer spending and retail sales are two of the main drivers of economic growth. And yet they are in a near-slump, with growth somewhere around 0%.

Pantheon Macroeconomics
Consumers have become more worried about the future. Their "confidence" in their own financial situation and the economy generally is zero, at best, and sharply negative at worst, according to ESI data.

Pantheon Macroeconomics
Few economists are predicting an official recession — two consecutive quarters of contraction — right now, even with growth at near-zero. But consumers are behaving as if they are about to go through hard times. Consumer confidence is in decline. Their response has been to increase their intention to save money.

Pantheon Macroeconomics
These declines have all come at the same time as a 7-point collapse in support for Brexit, as tracked by YouGov (and monitored in this chart by analyst Samuel Tombs of Pantheon Macroeconomics). There has not been a majority in favour of Brexit since May of last year.

Pantheon Macroeconomics
Clearly, delinking Britain from its largest and richest free-trade neighbour will have negative economic consequences. After the 2016 referendum, the economy got a short-term boost as the pound was devalued and exports went up. But the sugar-rush has now gone. Businesses are making long-term decisions on where to invest, where to create jobs. And as Koji Tsuruoka, the Japanese ambassador said recently, it won't be the UK if Britain doesn't stay closely aligned with the Single Market and the customs union: "One thing I can say for certain, based on fact, is that the companies operating today in the UK are not expanding their investment in the UK today."

"This is the best gateway to Europe," he said last week. "If that is in danger, if that is no longer sustainable, of course they will have to look at what they will have to do best. The existing arrangement for the single market is a total frictionless trade."

Predictably, the economy is already responding. The closer we get to Brexit, the worse the picture looks.

http://www.businessinsider.com/britain-brexit-recession-2018-4

 

[Immanuel]

US urges UK to push ahead with F-35 fighter jets deal

Woody Johnson, the US ambassador to the UK, has urged British ministers to increase defence spending and push ahead with the F-35 programme, echoing Donald Trump’s warning that America’s allies had to become more self-sufficient. UK defence officials are carrying out a wide-ranging review of the UK’s military capabilities. The review is expected to be finished in July, in time for a Nato summit in Brussels that Mr Trump will attend.

Gavin Williamson, the UK defence minister, is pushing chancellor Philip Hammond to increase the amount of money the UK spends on defence from the current level of 2 per cent of GDP, or just over £37bn a year. Military chiefs have feared they could face further spending cuts to pay for a funding shortfall of up to £20bn over the next decade.[Donald Trump] wants everybody involved in mutual defence, not just the US doing everything.

Woody Johnson, US ambassador to UKSpeaking to reporters in London, Mr Johnson said: “You’re going to have to make trade-offs and go through the emotional and practical and philosophical arguments in terms of what you want to do, what you want to be, how important is defence, how you want to be perceived, by the US, but also by Russia and others.“I know the president has stated that he doesn’t want to pay for everything. He’s going to rely on our allies,” he added. “He wants everybody involved in mutual defence, not just the US doing everything.” Mr Johnson was speaking ahead of the arrival in the UK this summer of the first batch of US-made F-35 fighter jets.The programme to build the first 48 of a potential total of 138 F-35s is costing the UK over £9bn (=187 £ million each .....).

While the UK government says it remains committed to buying the full quota of 138 jets from US defence company Lockheed Martin, there has been speculation that Britain could reduce the size of the final order to cut costs. Recommended Analysis UK defence spending UK army unease mounts after decade of ‘underfunding’ Such a move would ease the strain on the finances of the Ministry of Defence. But it could have a knock-on for UK defence companies that form a vital part of the F-35 global supply chain.“The UK is going to make a lot of money. There are going to be a lot of jobs,” Mr Johnson said about the F-35 programme.“To me, as an American, I would be looking at where do we want to be in the future, 10, 15, 20 years from now,” he added. “How important is it to defend yourself? My mission is security and prosperity, and you really can’t have prosperity unless you have security.”

So 36 Rafale costing India €7.8 billion i.e €216 million per unit so whats the issue here? At £187 million which at today's conversion is €213 million, so actually the F-35 is cheaper.