F-35 Joint Strike Fighter

[BON PLAN]

Haha, the F-35 going up against the F-18G or EF is no joke, both are excellent for dogfighters and capable in BVR. This red flag was in all cases a test to see if the F-35 can hold it's own against what the F-35 customers recieve. To laugh away the F-18G is silly to say the least, it is a more combat proven platform than the Rafale and perhaps the only aircraft to have a simulated BVR kill on the F-22.

It's not OUR question. OUR question is : was the F35 opposed in a Red Flag to a modern and non US aligned opponent ? I don't think so.

 

[Armand2REP]

It's not OUR question. OUR question is : was the F35 opposed in a Red Flag to a modern and non US aligned opponent ? I don't think so.

All of the reports said the F-35 at Red Flag was the bomb truck while the F-22s were doing air superiority. Those kill ratios are based against simulated SAM sites. It it typical disinformation marketing from USAF on behalf of Lockheed. Remember when USAF said they destroyed the Rafale at Al Dafra and then the HUD kills of Rafale defeating F-22 showed up? They probably didn't even let the F-35 go into DACTs for fear of more HUD kills popping up.

 

[StealthFlanker]

of course not.
The F16bk30 (not so youg !), with 2 external tanks was better. It was publicly released.

Firstly, older F-16 is generally better in dogfight
Secondly, as have been explained to you a thousand times already, those was AoA test and not the test to see which aircraft is better in dogfight

About F35, it's not the facts.
stable platform : probably because not agile. This plane is limited to 7G and loose against a F16. Just facts Bro.
Sensors : the data fusion doesn't work after 10 years of dev.
Stealth : yes, but only in the front sector.

F-35A is limited to 9G, have been tested to 9.9G, F-35C is limited to 7.5G but that to conserve airframe life given that it is a carrier aircraft and subject to corrosion. Moreover, i have taught you already, structure G limit is not the main factor that will limit aircraft agility, at altitude, aircraft rarely reach their structure limit

Sensor fusion: work, simple as that.
Stealth: both F-35 and F-22 have all aspect stealth, just because the side and rear aspect RCS is bigger doesn't mean the aircraft only stealthy from the frontal. The myth that stealth aircraft is only stealth from frontal came from the fact that most enthusiasts like you don't have the slightest idea how radar operates.
Most radar energy is transmitted and received via a main lobe aligned with the antenna’s boresight, but smaller amounts enter through sidelobes that point in almost all directions.

Radar performance degrades at viewing angles where a target must be distinguished from background clutter. Clutter can enter the receiver via the sidelobes, and the processor has no way of knowing the return did not come from the main lobe. Such returns can mask that of the target. Modern radars mitigate this phenomenon with Doppler processing. A pulse-Doppler radar records the time of arrival of a return and also compares its phase with that of the transmitted wave. The difference between the two reveals the target’s radial velocity. The computer creates a 2D range/velocity matrix of all returns, which puts approaching targets in cells with no stationary ground clutter. This is why airborne radars exhibit their best detection ranges against approaching targets. But if the target is being chased, its radial velocity will match some of the ground clutter, and it will be harder to detect.

For example, the Sukhoi Su-35’s Irbis-E radar in high-power, narrow-beam search can detect a 3-m2 (32-ft.2) target at 400 km (250 mi.) from the front but only 150 km from behind, and these ranges drop by half in normal search mode. The hardest airborne targets to see are those moving perpendicular to the radar, because their Doppler profile matches the ground directly below the aircraft. For ground-based radars, the same principles apply, but the antenna is stationary. Fleeing targets stand out as much as approaching aircraft. But ground-based radars are especially challenged in detecting targets moving perpendicularly, because their Doppler profile matches the stationary clutter all around. A tactic used by fighter pilots against ground radars, called “notching,” is to turn perpendicular to the radar, placing the aircraft in the “Doppler notch” in which the radar suffers significantly reduced range.

 

[StealthFlanker]

F35 is and will remain to 7G. It's far, far too late to expect an increase. The so called software limitation is only BS for some knowing quite nothing to the process of test of a fighter.

F-35A is 9G, F-35C is 7.5 G to conserve airframe life

Excellent sensor integration ? It doesn't work so far. EOTS is to be reworked. DAS suffer malfunctions. Radar (AESA) and HMD are not a specificity of the F35.

EOTS, DAS both work just fine, and even upgrade version in the work
Same goes for sensor integration

AIM9X ? a old Syrian SU22 with (or without?) old flares escape to this last gen missile..... very difficult to escape you say?

That is a pretty stupid argument , so because a missile miss once, it is instantly useless?
What weapon have 100% PK ? none

 

[StealthFlanker]

All of the reports said the F-35 at Red Flag was the bomb truck while the F-22s were doing air superiority. Those kill ratios are based against simulated SAM sites.

Wrong, while it true that F-35 was tasked for SEAD, those kill ratio is what it achieved against adversary fighter

 

[Armand2REP]

Wrong, while it true that F-35 was tasked for SEAD, those kill ratio is what it achieved against adversary fighter

This debunks the myth...

The 15:1 kill ratio in particular is nebulous, because it seems this may be skewed in terms of what data it actually includes. Kill ratios attributed to a platform naturally make us think of direct engagements with enemy aircraft, but Red Flag is a highly integrated air battle...

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...t-those-f-35-kill-ratio-reports-from-red-flag

Unless they tell us what platforms were engaged and what ROEs were used, it is a useless number.

 

[StealthFlanker]

This debunks the myth...

The 15:1 kill ratio in particular is nebulous, because it seems this may be skewed in terms of what data it actually includes. Kill ratios attributed to a platform naturally make us think of direct engagements with enemy aircraft, but Red Flag is a highly integrated air battle...

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...t-those-f-35-kill-ratio-reports-from-red-flag

Unless they tell us what platforms were engaged and what ROEs were used, it is a useless number.

Given that Tyler Rogoway are known to be opponent of F-35 program, i wouldn't say it is a fair article but more or less him trying to justify the contradiction between his opinions about F-35 in previous articles and what F-35 shown in exercises. It is actually quite funny how he jumps at the conclusion when the report about F-35 vs F-16 was published (ignored many important details) but demand to know the RoE and detail information of Red flag.

Anyway: Kill ratio of a platform type = number of aircraft shot down by it/ shot down number of that specific platform. If F-35 didn't launch missiles then it won't count toward its ratio. That not to say jamming and others support asset isn't important, however. But that how it will happen in the real world, not 1 vs 1 vacuum.
Also, aggressor F-16 has IRST, very big dedicated IRST with massive aperture in fact

 

[BON PLAN]

F-35A is 9G, F-35C is 7.5 G to conserve airframe life

Just have a look how lazy the F35 is in aero show....

F35C limited to 7.5G ..... to preserve airframe ! LOL. A brand new plane limited to preserve it....poor LM engineers. They fall so deep. It's the BS of the week.

 

[BON PLAN]

Same goes for sensor integration

See swiss eval. It was not so impressive.
The switzerland testers were very impressived how fast and accurate was the sensor fusion of Rafale. A compliment not made about EF one.

 

[BON PLAN]

That is a pretty stupid argument , so because a missile miss once, it is instantly useless?
What weapon have 100% PK ? none

It was my answer to : " it's very difficult escape AIM9x or any modern LOAL" from asianobserve.

But this missile miss once on... just one war fire. => 100% miss. And against a old russian export version horse...

US engineers are definitively not the specialists they were.

 

[bhramos]

F-35 designed for Turkey made its first flight in Texas !!! Turkey to buy 100 fighters...

 

[StealthFlanker]

See swiss eval. It was not so impressive.
The switzerland testers were very impressived how fast and accurate was the sensor fusion of Rafale. A compliment not made about EF one.

What ???? Since when F-35 was in Swiss evaluation ????

Just have a look how lazy the F35 is in aero show....

F35C limited to 7.5G ..... to preserve airframe ! LOL. A brand new plane limited to preserve it....poor LM engineers. They fall so deep. It's the BS of the week.

Lazy ? i think not, it's ITR was among the best, same goes for acceleration, and no other Western aircraft bar the F-18 demonstrated post stall style maneuver
and you don't seem to understand very simple doctrine for Navy aircraft, they almost always use a lower limit to extend airframe life, given the corrosive condition of carrier operation, the same goes for F-18 and F-14. Those limit are there so that you can use aircraft for longer period of time, if you wait until these airraft too old then it is too late. Furthermore, you still fail to understand the fact that structure limit has very little to do with aircraft agility.

It was my answer to : " it's very difficult escape AIM9x or any modern LOAL" from asianobserve.
But this missile miss once on... just one war fire. => 100% miss. And against a old russian export version horse...
US engineers are definitively not the specialists they were

It is very difficult to survive 33k feet fall without a parachute, yet there are people who survive it, an exception treated as the norm is just pure stupidity, given that every things can malfunction

 

[nongaddarliberal]

First F-35 jet delivery to Turkey slated for June 21

https://www.trtworld.com/turkey/first-f-35-jet-delivery-to-turkey-slated-for-june-21-17395

I hope they dont start covertly sharing tech with their buddies pakistan and china. You can't trust Erdogan and his Islamist cronies. Anyway, this will be a major upgrade for Turkey over its F 16 fleet. Sad that Turkey will have a stealth jet before us. With the number of countries getting F 35's, India is likely to lose its place as the 4th most powerful Air Force in the world, until AMCA comes in.

 

[Flame Thrower]

It was my answer to : " it's very difficult escape AIM9x or any modern LOAL" from asianobserve.

But this missile miss once on... just one war fire. => 100% miss. And against a old russian export version horse...

US engineers are definitively not the specialists they were.

Why don't you consider it as manufacturing defect!!!?? Or poor maintenance of missile...

 

[BON PLAN]

What ???? Since when F-35 was in Swiss evaluation ????

It was my answer to your question "EOTS, DAS both work just fine, and even upgrade version in the work
Same goes for sensor integration".

EOTS and DAS in F35 ? Have a small rest my friend. You are tired.

 

[BON PLAN]

Lazy ? i think not, it's ITR was among the best, same goes for acceleration, and no other Western aircraft bar the F-18 demonstrated post stall style maneuver
and you don't seem to understand very simple doctrine for Navy aircraft, they almost always use a lower limit to extend airframe life, given the corrosive condition of carrier operation, the same goes for F-18 and F-14. Those limit are there so that you can use aircraft for longer period of time, if you wait until these airraft too old then it is too late. Furthermore, you still fail to understand the fact that structure limit has very little to do with aircraft agility.

LOL.
Rafale during test remain under control up to 100° AoA and negative speed...
ITR among the best? maybe. I have an attentioned look to the Le Bourget Show : I don't find its ITR so impressive, bt mainly see the sustained turn rate lazy, and after each "hard" turn, even beeing quite empty, it need to recover some speed and the manoeuvers were difficult to stop.

So yes, it's a lazy plane.

 

[BON PLAN]

Why don't you consider it as manufacturing defect!!!?? Or poor maintenance of missile...

Poor maintenance? We are not dealing about Namibia air force !
Manufacturing defect? Why not. But you will agree with me : it's unfortunate.


I do not dare to imagine what would have been said in the same case of a French up to date missile failure ....

 

[Flame Thrower]

Poor maintenance? We are not dealing about Namibia air force !
Manufacturing defect? Why not. But you will agree with me : it's unfortunate.


I do not dare to imagine what would have been said in the same case of a French up to date missile failure ....

Please do check the reasons for why two missiles are launched towards a single target. Seeker failure is one of them. This seeker failure could be a manufacturing defect or poor maintenance. Do you know that missiles will go through a maintenance checkup after certain number of flight hours....!!

Even US has maintenance issues.

If you ask me, this stupid incident has wasted enough bandwidth of the forum and time of folks in the forum. Let's end discussion on Aim 9x failure.

 

[BON PLAN]

Read today in "DSI" (International Defense & security) of may-june 2018 :

ALL THE F35 PRODUCED UNTIL 2024 WILL BE BLOCK 3F. (BLOCK 3 F IS NOT FULLY VALIDATED SO FAR...)

ALL THE PLANES PREVIOUSLY PRODUCED, ie 998 units, WILL HAVE TO BE PUT TO BLOCK 4, NOW CALLED C2D2 (Continuous Capability Development and Delivery).

THE COST OF C2D2 MAY EXCEED 16 $BILLIONS, TO ADD TO TH 55 BILLIONS ALREADY SPENT ON DEVELOPMENT.

 

[BON PLAN]

USAF said at the end of march that if the support costs are not decreasing by 38% (a straw ), IT WILL HAVE TO CUT THE TOTAL NUMBERS BY 590 (on the 1763 of the beginnng).

=> USAFwill, as ALL the other customers, cuts its orders. So the final and definitiv price of the F35 is :
- Not really known (because cuts in Qty)
- Increasing (contrary to the propaganda of LM).

Wonderfull !!!