F-35 Joint Strike Fighter

[Immanuel]

Some doesn't think like you....

Even some US top brass say that it is not made for air superiority : "It had an air-to-air capability, but it was not intended to be an air-superiority fighter."

US has F22,
UK, Italy, Spain has EF,
Japan has a big fleet of F15 and are studying a new plane.
Israel has a lot of F15 and are intended to buy some more.
for the others.... they will never be in front line alone. Or they will be defeat.

They are stating a fact your, from what angle does the F-35 look like an air superirority fighter? It was designed to replace the F-16 primarily which is multirole fighter again and not an air superiority fighter like the F-15. Dude, you need to learn to interpret better, your understanding of the english language sucks.

In team or in a 1 to 1 the F-35 today already gave plenty of F-15s and F-16s a run for their money in recent red flags and exchanges.

So one thing's clear, it is better than the aicraft it replaces both F-16s and F-18s. It is miles ahead in capability even from the Rafale and EF in terms of sensors, LPDs and Helmets even by Block 3F standards. All the test pilots so far agree, the F-35 allows them to be a lot more carefree in their handling of their aircraft while allowing them to be a lot more agressive, good luck even in a dogfight.

 

[BON PLAN]

When FOC achieved the Block 4 F-35 will have AESA with GaN, Stealth, Large Panel Display, new age helmets, upgraded DAS, upgraded EOTs, and uprated engines.

when when when.... yes but finally when will it be ready for war?

A new plane needed 4 block to be combat ready? And you say it's transparent.... It's all but transparent.

This plane will NEVER be a F16 like technical success.

 

[BON PLAN]

In team or in a 1 to 1 the F-35 today already gave plenty of F-15s and F-16s a run for their money in recent red flags and exchanges.

LOL.
The exact rules of the fight is never released.
The opponent during these red flags is always US pilots or a very near ally (more a vassal than a ally in fact).

Never remember the F16 vs F35 flight. The fat turkey, even with some improvements in FBW and even a more powerfull engine will never be agile as a dancer.

 

[BON PLAN]

Dude, you need to learn to interpret better, your understanding of the english language sucks.

It's your problem : you over interpret facts.
My simple english is enough to understand. No need to interpret what is crystal clear.

 

[Immanuel]

when when when.... yes but finally when will it be ready for war?

A new plane needed 4 block to be combat ready? And you say it's transparent.... It's all but transparent.

This plane will NEVER be a F16 like technical success.

F-16 sold over 4000 units over a 40 year time span, F-35 will do atleast just as well, 3000 airframes over it's life time is inevitable considering US alone will take over 2500, give or take another 1000+ in exports. You forget the power of money, influence that LM has within the US and it's politics.

Rafale is pretty much a DUD till F-3 came along, heck Rafale even today can't match the weapon's choice that even EF, SH and F-15s offer. Let's see does Rafale even have a helmet mouted cueing system yet?

 

[Immanuel]

LOL.
The exact rules of the fight is never released.
The opponent during these red flags is always US pilots or a very near ally (more a vassal than a ally in fact).

Never remember the F16 vs F35 flight. The fat turkey, even with some improvements in FBW and even a more powerfull engine will never be agile as a dancer.

When were the rules for any of the Red flags ever released, heck the video of Rafale having a gun kill on the Raptor also didn't have any ROE released, so by this account that Rafale kill on the F-22 was probably just as easily discarded right?

Why soo much 'Fake News', opponents during Red Flag can be from many countries as in past from France and India or Israel, so while France may not be a Vassal state of the US, it's still an ass licking ally, so what's your problem really?

Red Flag involves countries be it Pak or France sending usually a mix of their best pilots along with some intructors and some newbies so a whole wide of set of pilots can play a part in this massive excercise. IAF also had MKI flying as part of the 'Red Force' In this particular case they had RAF Typhoons, RAAF F-18Gs and I am sure they went up against the F-35, heck they are future operators, the least they can do is go up against it in a simulated battle.

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/16...hine_in_Red_Flag_Alaska_Exercise#.Wune18sUk74

 

[BON PLAN]

F-16 sold over 4000 units over a 40 year time span, F-35 will do atleast just as well, 3000 airframes over it's life time is inevitable considering US alone will take over 2500, give or take another 1000+ in exports. You forget the power of money, influence that LM has within the US and it's politics.

NO WAY.
USA will NEVER take the 1700 intended. Never. They already are preparing a 6th gen light fighter, because all except you are aware this plane is far too average because of too many compromises.
The VSTOL model was a burden for the whole programm. If not....

As said x times, just see how all the others had reduced their orders : GB, Italy, Netherlands, Australia...

A max of 2000 for US and export will be nice.

 

[BON PLAN]

Why soo much 'Fake News', opponents during Red Flag can be from many countries as in past from France and India or Israel, so while France may not be a Vassal state of the US, it's still an ass licking ally, so what's your problem really?

Ass licking ally? Just remember France was the sole ally of the USA that didn't want to make war in Irak for "fake news" weapons of mass destruction...
The mess in Irak and much more in this area came from the irresponsability of a US president. A US speciality it seems...

The ass licking ally are GB, Australia and New Zealand.

 

[BON PLAN]

Red Flag involves countries be it Pak or France sending usually a mix of their best pilots along with some intructors and some newbies so a whole wide of set of pilots can play a part in this massive excercise. IAF also had MKI flying as part of the 'Red Force' In this particular case they had RAF Typhoons, RAAF F-18Gs and I am sure they went up against the F-35, heck they are future operators, the least they can do is go up against it in a simulated battle.

1) It's why sometime when there is a newbie pilot that, for exemple, a F4 can "shoot" a rafale or a F15....
2) Give me evidence F35 was opposed to non US planes in red flag.

 

[Immanuel]

NO WAY.
USA will NEVER take the 1700 intended. Never. They already are preparing a 6th gen light fighter, because all except you are aware this plane is far too average because of too many compromises.
The VSTOL model was a burden for the whole programm. If not....

As said x times, just see how all the others had reduced their orders : GB, Italy, Netherlands, Australia...

A max of 2000 for US and export will be nice.

The F-35 replaces the following in the USAF: all F-15s, F-16s & A-10s (there are around 1300 in total of these in active inventory) which the USAF plans to replace with 1700 F-35s. This number was achieved at taking in considering the 750 F-22 initially planned later capped to 183, the extra F-35s are to cater to this shortfall in the F-22. So while it's possible there is at times an excercise to determine how many are finally ordered, One can expect finally the USAF might order to a max of 1300 aircraft while foregoing the option for more to augment the shortage faced due to limited F-22 orders and the make up the difference with stealth drones or so.

But atleast 1300 orders for F-35 in the USAF are a minimum.

USMC need of the F-35 B is for 340 and 80 F-35C, there are planned for over 20 sqds replacing both Harriers and F-18s, the Hornets now are undergoing SLEP to absorb delays with the F-35B & F-35C. There are some new build Block 3s ordered as well. So the Navy will operate both aircraft till the oldest blocks. This entire buy is virtually inevitable since there have been no reduction in LPDs or Amphi warfare ships.

USN plans 260 F-35Cs, again oldest SH Blocks are undergoing SLEP to Block 3 to cater to delays. These will be replaced after 3K hrs. So this entire buy is inevitable since there has been no reduction in Carrier Groups or air wings.
So you see the biggest cut could from the USAF which is likely. Taking into consideration these cuts, 1300+340+80+260= 1980, this is minimum figure needed to maintain the same fleet size across the services.

There is no indication whatsoever of any kind of force shrinkage specially now with massive budgets. Plus, the economy is booming.
All orders are in a phased manner, therfore every LOT has it's own cost, usually gets cheaper. For the next 6.5 years with Trump, orders will keep coming. By 2022, production will peak at over 130 aircraft per year, price will be lower too, this is when subsequent orders will be made. I expect original estimates of 2500 to shrink a little to around 2200.

Add another 600-1000 orders from export clients and we are looking atleast at a 2600-3000+ aircraft orderbook over it's life cycle. This is inevitable taking even basic numbers. Keep in mind the F-35 will be the key pusher for may F-16 replacement programs across the world (Belgium, Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, Greece (probably a very small fleet), Crotia, Italy, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Bahrain, Egypt, Israel, Turkey, Singapore, Taiwan, Thailand, Indonesia, Chile, UAE, Iraq) and the F-35 is easy logical step forward even if smaller numbers are ordered to replace the F-16s due to better war fighting ability of the F-35.

 

[Immanuel]

1) It's why sometime when there is a newbie pilot that, for exemple, a F4 can "shoot" a rafale or a F15....
2) Give me evidence F35 was opposed to non US planes in red flag.

I gave you evidence that non US planes are also used as 'Red Force' in the Red Flag like in the case of MKI. The last excercise where the F-35 shined also had RAAF F-18Gs, RAF EFs participating both F-35 clients, so I am virtually certain the F-35 went up against these. In it's kills were most certainly F-16s, F-15s, F-18 G's and EFs. It probably got killed either by Growler or the EF.

 

[BON PLAN]

I gave you evidence that non US planes are also used as 'Red Force' in the Red Flag like in the case of MKI. The last excercise where the F-35 shined also had RAAF F-18Gs, RAF EFs participating both F-35 clients, so I am virtually certain the F-35 went up against these. In it's kills were most certainly F-16s, F-15s, F-18 G's and EFs. It probably got killed either by Growler or the EF.

as far as I know, the non US planes are only in the same side the F35 are. Never against.

 

[BON PLAN]

The F-35 replaces the following in the USAF: all F-15s, F-16s & A-10s (there are around 1300 in total of these in active inventory) which the USAF plans to replace with 1700 F-35s. This number was achieved at taking in considering the 750 F-22 initially planned later capped to 183, the extra F-35s are to cater to this shortfall in the F-22. So while it's possible there is at times an excercise to determine how many are finally ordered, One can expect finally the USAF might order to a max of 1300 aircraft while foregoing the option for more to augment the shortage faced due to limited F-22 orders and the make up the difference with stealth drones or so.

But atleast 1300 orders for F-35 in the USAF are a minimum.

USMC need of the F-35 B is for 340 and 80 F-35C, there are planned for over 20 sqds replacing both Harriers and F-18s, the Hornets now are undergoing SLEP to absorb delays with the F-35B & F-35C. There are some new build Block 3s ordered as well. So the Navy will operate both aircraft till the oldest blocks. This entire buy is virtually inevitable since there have been no reduction in LPDs or Amphi warfare ships.

USN plans 260 F-35Cs, again oldest SH Blocks are undergoing SLEP to Block 3 to cater to delays. These will be replaced after 3K hrs. So this entire buy is inevitable since there has been no reduction in Carrier Groups or air wings.
So you see the biggest cut could from the USAF which is likely. Taking into consideration these cuts, 1300+340+80+260= 1980, this is minimum figure needed to maintain the same fleet size across the services.

There is no indication whatsoever of any kind of force shrinkage specially now with massive budgets. Plus, the economy is booming.
All orders are in a phased manner, therfore every LOT has it's own cost, usually gets cheaper. For the next 6.5 years with Trump, orders will keep coming. By 2022, production will peak at over 130 aircraft per year, price will be lower too, this is when subsequent orders will be made. I expect original estimates of 2500 to shrink a little to around 2200.

Add another 600-1000 orders from export clients and we are looking atleast at a 2600-3000+ aircraft orderbook over it's life cycle. This is inevitable taking even basic numbers. Keep in mind the F-35 will be the key pusher for may F-16 replacement programs across the world (Belgium, Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, Greece (probably a very small fleet), Crotia, Italy, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Bahrain, Egypt, Israel, Turkey, Singapore, Taiwan, Thailand, Indonesia, Chile, UAE, Iraq) and the F-35 is easy logical step forward even if smaller numbers are ordered to replace the F-16s due to better war fighting ability of the F-35.

Time after time the cost of a fighter increased much more than the defense budget. In USA and everywhere else => The fleet will go down (see Augustine law) . 1980 is a far too ambitious figure.

F35 will never be a F22 short fall. Absolutely not studied for.
USA will probably developp a new superiority fighter (as Virginia SSN class to remplace the too costly Seawolf class).

The plane is showing year after year that it is not the perfect F16 replacement plane as promoted : not so versatile, absolutely not affordable, not so efficient, with much more sovereinty problems thanks to ALIS. Many F16 customers will not switch from F16 to F35.

But it's just a question of time to see who's right....

 

[Immanuel]

as far as I know, the non US planes are only in the same side the F35 are. Never against.

Not true, MKI already flew as part of Red Force.

 

[Immanuel]

Time after time the cost of a fighter increased much more than the defense budget. In USA and everywhere else => The fleet will go down (see Augustine law) . 1980 is a far too ambitious figure.

F35 will never be a F22 short fall. Absolutely not studied for.
USA will probably developp a new superiority fighter (as Virginia SSN class to remplace the too costly Seawolf class).

The plane is showing year after year that it is not the perfect F16 replacement plane as promoted : not so versatile, absolutely not affordable, not so efficient, with much more sovereinty problems thanks to ALIS. Many F16 customers will not switch from F16 to F35.

But it's just a question of time to see who's right....

I can understand 2500 is a very ambitious figure but nearly 2000 is a minimum else they will face shortages. Point here is, there is no upcoming reduction in the US military in anyway. F-22 was planned for a 750 aircraft run but ended with 183 and the F-35 was offering some of the abilities at a lower cost. Hence the USAF planned for 1300 (current active aircraft A-10, F-16, F-15) + 400+ as gap filler for the F-22. Now I can imagine USAF not buying more than 1300 but the rest of aircraft for USMC & USN will be a full order book. USN will maintain 11 Carriers, there is no change in fleet strength of Amphi warfare ships. Already over 200 F-35 fly around, by 2022/23 they will hit peak production so by then there should be well over 400 already flying. Next lots will only be cheaper.

Soon only the F-18 SLEP will remain with the USMC while Harriers are out and F-35B comes in. After 3000k hours sometime next decade 5 F-35C Sqds will come for USMC when these Hornets go away. F-35C will also replace all F-18 Super Hornets block 1 &2 (undergoing SLEP now for 3000hrs) while flying in parallel with Block 3 SH for a while.

A massive reduction of orders below to 2000 are not happening as there is no competitve product (either manned or unmanned) available next decade. I seriously doubt they'll leave many Ampibious Assault ships or carriers without any fighters or even at half capacity. Deliveries of the US orders of F-35 will be done by 2030.

The only way orders are getting cut is if USAF disbands many SQDS and down sizes (not happening for the next 6 years), if USMC get's rid of it's Amphi assault ships and the USN reduces the number of Carriers it operates, again no indication of any of that happening. Program cost is one thing but minimum operational fleet needs are entirely another thing.

 

[BON PLAN]

Not true, MKI already flew as part of Red Force.

and F35 was part of the blue force ?

 

[Immanuel]

and F35 was part of the blue force ?

F-35 didn't take part in the Red flag when MKI came over. However both RAAF F-18Gs and EFs from RAF were present when F-35 took part. When MKI went, it took part in both Blue and Red Force ops.

 

[BON PLAN]

F-35 didn't take part in the Red flag when MKI came over. However both RAAF F-18Gs and EFs from RAF were present when F-35 took part. When MKI went, it took part in both Blue and Red Force ops.

RAF and RAAF are the 2nd and third branch of USAF .....
And are customers of F35.

So only the very good news came out.

The real test would be a Red Flag with F35 on one side and real opponent on the other side (MKI, Rafale, SU35, no RAF Eurofighter...)

 

[Immanuel]

RAF and RAAF are the 2nd and third branch of USAF .....
And are customers of F35.

So only the very good news came out.

The real test would be a Red Flag with F35 on one side and real opponent on the other side (MKI, Rafale, SU35, no RAF Eurofighter...)

Haha, the F-35 going up against the F-18G or EF is no joke, both are excellent for dogfighters and capable in BVR. This red flag was in all cases a test to see if the F-35 can hold it's own against what the F-35 customers recieve. To laugh away the F-18G is silly to say the least, it is a more combat proven platform than the Rafale and perhaps the only aircraft to have a simulated BVR kill on the F-22.

 

[BON PLAN]

Not true, MKI already flew as part of Red Force.

That doesn't mean F35 was this time in the blue one.

My question is clear : does a MKI, a Rafale, or a EF non English be opposed to a F35 in a Red Flag?