F-35 Joint Strike Fighter

[BON PLAN]

Cost of the locally built Japanese F35 is 53% higher than intended (now stands at 137,6 $millions).

Yen vs dollar explain a part. But only a part.

 

[StealthFlanker]

LOL.
Rafale during test remain under control up to 100° AoA and negative speed...

Ability to resist spin at high AoA or recover from a spin at high AoA is not the same as having the high level of nose authority at high AoA that can be used for combat.
Legacy fighters such as F-14, F-15, F-16 have all been brought to very high AoA in test, F-15 was brought to AoA of around 100 degrees also. Yet among the teen series only F-18 can use post-stall maneuver in combat and airshow. There a good reason why you never see F-14, F-15, F-16, Rafale, Typhoon perform post-stall maneuver in airshows. Yet you see many from F-18, F-35, F-22, Sukhoi series.

ITR among the best? maybe. I have an attentioned look to the Le Bourget Show : I don't find its ITR so impressive, bt mainly see the sustained turn rate lazy, and after each "hard" turn, even beeing quite empty, it need to recover some speed and the manoeuvers were difficult to stop.
So yes, it's a lazy plane.

That honestly nothing more than a form of confirmatory bias,Unlike ITR/STR which can be timed and calculated from video. It impossible to know what exactly the maneuver pilot intended to perform so to say the maneuvers are hard to stop is baseless. It may be that pilot intended to do just what you saw. Same goes for the argument that F-35 need to recover speed after a hard turn, unless you have a video side by side comparison of another aircraft perform the same turn, it is impossible to tell. Nevermind others factor like air density due to weather (hot vs cold day).

It was my answer to your question "EOTS, DAS both work just fine, and even upgrade version in the work
Same goes for sensor integration".

How is that even an answer? what did you try to say ????
You said sensor integration doesn't work, then brought up Swiss evaluation which F-35 didn't even took part in

EOTS and DAS in F35 ?

Yes EOTS and DAS are part of F-35

 

[StealthFlanker]

USAF said at the end of march that if the support costs are not decreasing by 38% (a straw ), IT WILL HAVE TO CUT THE TOTAL NUMBERS BY 590 (on the 1763 of the beginnng).

=> USAFwill, as ALL the other customers, cuts its orders. So the final and definitiv price of the F35 is :
- Not really known (because cuts in Qty)
- Increasing (contrary to the propaganda of LM).

Wonderfull !!!

If you want others to respect you, the first step is to be honest, no point lying when everything you said can be checked in less than 2 second
Let me quote the article directly for everyone else to see:

The U.S. Air Force may have to cut its purchases of Lockheed Martin Corp.’s F-35 by a third if it can’t find ways to reduce operations and support costs by as much as 38 percent over a decade, according to an internal analysis.

The Air Force analysis doesn’t represent anything close to a final decision, according to spokeswoman Ann Stefanek. The potential reduction in aircraft was a “staff assessment on aircraft affordability. It’s premature for the Air Force to consider buying fewer aircraft at this time,” Stefanek said.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ing-third-of-f-35s-if-upkeep-costs-aren-t-cut

 

[Immanuel]

Problems with budgets will go away under 8 years of Trump, US will continue on a stable growth pattern, the USAF won't need to cut orders

 

[BON PLAN]

If you want others to respect you, the first step is to be honest, no point lying when everything you said can be checked in less than 2 second
Let me quote the article directly for everyone else to see:


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ing-third-of-f-35s-if-upkeep-costs-aren-t-cut

Respect? what's the problem? A fact is a fact. A news (WITH SOURCE) is a news.

I gave you my source : "DSI" (International Defense & security) of may-june 2018.

And, independantly of what you think, It's for me absolutely clear that USAF will cut its order.
As USN, RAF, Italian air force, Dutch air force, Israel...

You are desesperatly trying to save the soldier F35. But it's a one-armed soldier.

 

[BON PLAN]

Problems with budgets will go away under 8 years of Trump, US will continue on a stable growth pattern, the USAF won't need to cut orders

8 years of Trump? LOL.
and even in this case : 2017 + 8 = 2025. at those time nearly 1200 planes will have been produced. The next US president can stop it at this moment. 3 years of long delay lead time = 2028. A grand total, including export, can stand to 1800.

 

[StealthFlanker]

Respect? what's the problem? A fact is a fact. A news (WITH SOURCE) is a news.
And, independantly of what you think, It's for me absolutely clear that USAF will cut its order.
As USN, RAF, Italian air force, Dutch air force, Israel...

Yes fact is fact, but:
1) Your opinions # fact, trying to represent your opinion as fact is dishonest
2) Modified and cherry picking information from a source to support your agenda is dishonest also.

You are desesperatly trying to save the soldier F35. But it's a one-armed soldier.

Saving? what make you think amateur enthusiasts opinion about a military program actually have any effect on it?

8 years of Trump? LOL.
and even in this case : 2017 + 8 = 2025. at those time nearly 1200 planes will have been produced. The next US president can stop it at this moment. 3 years of long delay lead time = 2028. A grand total, including export, can stand to 1800.

It will still exceed the number of Rafale that will be produced several times at the very least, so what the big deal ?

 

[Immanuel]

8 years of Trump? LOL.
and even in this case : 2017 + 8 = 2025. at those time nearly 1200 planes will have been produced. The next US president can stop it at this moment. 3 years of long delay lead time = 2028. A grand total, including export, can stand to 1800.

Well, still lets say another 6.5 years of Trump so budgets are not an issue. This sort of reporting on order cuts is also to put pressure on LM, as I suggested last week a order cut from the USAF for 400-500 is very well possible, but USAF will still take 1200-1300 fighters because there is no other aircraft to replace these which are in active service. Currently the F-35 is scheduled to replace all F-16s in active inventory as well as the F-16s/ F-15Cs in the Air National Gaurd. This 400-500 aircraft extra was thought of as cheaper & easier option to compensate for the low production run on the F-22. Shedding this order is always possible but in the end USAF in my opinion will take 1500 aircraft while cutting around 200-300 orders. However there is no planned reduction of any orders for USN & USMC which means atleast 2000 aircraft will be made for the US alone and regardless of what you say the F35 is the best replacement for existing F-16 operators and that alone is a potential order book of over a 1000 aircraft.

Don't be talking about long delay lead times, all fighters have a 3 year lead time. The next US present after another 6.5 years of Trump will probably be a republican so no worries there. Also the bulk of the orders will be placed well within Trump era. Also any US president would be careful at a future day like 2024 to cut orders since closing line or putting people out of work will lead to chaos and there are many many many hurdles before such an order cut is actually passed. Also LM & US MIL Complex has way too much money, influence to keep this thing going. Don't be surprised if they are peddling the F-35 late into the 2040s and still taking orders just like they do with the F-16.

 

[asianobserve]

Britain 'Unlikely To Reduce F-35 Order' Despite Budget Pressures

https://www.forces.net/news/britain-unlikely-reduce-f-35-order-despite-budget-pressures

 

[BON PLAN]

Yes fact is fact, but:
1) Your opinions # fact, trying to represent your opinion as fact is dishonest
2) Modified and cherry picking information from a source to support your agenda is dishonest also.

Here are my 2 posts :

Read today in "DSI" (International Defense & security) of may-june 2018 :

ALL THE F35 PRODUCED UNTIL 2024 WILL BE BLOCK 3F. (BLOCK 3 F IS NOT FULLY VALIDATED SO FAR...)

ALL THE PLANES PREVIOUSLY PRODUCED, ie 998 units, WILL HAVE TO BE PUT TO BLOCK 4, NOW CALLED C2D2 (Continuous Capability Development and Delivery).

THE COST OF C2D2 MAY EXCEED 16 $BILLIONS, TO ADD TO TH 55 BILLIONS ALREADY SPENT ON DEVELOPMENT.

***

USAF said at the end of march that if the support costs are not decreasing by 38% (a straw ), IT WILL HAVE TO CUT THE TOTAL NUMBERS BY 590 (on the 1763 of the beginnng).

=> USAFwill, as ALL the other customers, cuts its orders. So the final and definitiv price of the F35 is :
- Not really known (because cuts in Qty)
- Increasing (contrary to the propaganda of LM).

Wonderfull !!!


My sole opinion is the last word .... All the rest came from a identified source, quite serious.

So your claim is more a confession how embarassed you are than anything else.

 

[BON PLAN]

Britain 'Unlikely To Reduce F-35 Order' Despite Budget Pressures

https://www.forces.net/news/britain-unlikely-reduce-f-35-order-despite-budget-pressures

Sure !

Some weeks ago they were dealing about the order or not of the 7th Astute SSN....

So 138 x F35 are 100% unlikelly. AND THIS IS AN OPINION, at least mine.

 

[BON PLAN]

Saving? what make you think amateur enthusiasts opinion about a military program actually have any effect on it?

Tha same can be said about your own opinion.

To be a F35 blind supporter, despite all the technicals shortfalls, timeout, over budget really make you the amateur of the forum.

 

[BON PLAN]

It will still exceed the number of Rafale that will be produced several times at the very least, so what the big deal ?

The sole thing I agree with.

Already discussed. USA is 7th bigger than France, so....

 

[BON PLAN]

Britain 'Unlikely To Reduce F-35 Order' Despite Budget Pressures

https://www.forces.net/news/britain-unlikely-reduce-f-35-order-despite-budget-pressures

"The UK Department of Defense [MoD] was pinned by the House of Commons Public Accounts Committee, which in a May 11 report said it "just does not have enough money to acquire all the equipment he needs.

...

the public accounts committee warned of a "worrying" funding gap, with variances from forecast costs ranging from 4.9 to 20.8 billion pounds. In addition, this would leave no room for maneuver to take into account other threats, such as cyber, or strategic innovations, particularly in the field of artificial intelligence"

http://www.opex360.com/2018/05/14/r...iards-deuros-programmes-de-marins-nucleaires/

And you always think GB will order 138 x F35?

NOOOOO WAYYYYY

 

[StealthFlanker]

Here are my 2 posts :

Read today in "DSI" (International Defense & security) of may-june 2018 :

ALL THE F35 PRODUCED UNTIL 2024 WILL BE BLOCK 3F. (BLOCK 3 F IS NOT FULLY VALIDATED SO FAR...)

ALL THE PLANES PREVIOUSLY PRODUCED, ie 998 units, WILL HAVE TO BE PUT TO BLOCK 4, NOW CALLED C2D2 (Continuous Capability Development and Delivery).

THE COST OF C2D2 MAY EXCEED 16 $BILLIONS, TO ADD TO TH 55 BILLIONS ALREADY SPENT ON DEVELOPMENT.

***

Unsurprisingly, you don't seem to grasp the concept of software block nor the C2D2
1- This is what these block represent, so obviously they want block 3F and up for future purchase
https://ibb.co/dzyfGJ
2- This is what Continuous Capability Development and Delivery or C2D2 mean, in short, instead of having big block upgrade for software, they make a series of continuous small software upgrades to improve the aircraft. Think of how your phone/Ipad software upgrade work.

Vice Adm. Mat Winter will bring a new plan to the U.S. Defense Department’s top acquisition official for final approval in late October, Winter said during a keynote speech at the Defense News Conference.

“The current acquisition strategy has us doing a serial [and] sequential design, develop, integrate, test [and] deliver strategy. I’m not convinced that’s the most efficient and effective way, most importantly, to deliver and continuously deliver capability to our war fighters ... as we go beyond Block 3F,” he said.

“Envision in your head: The pilot jumps in the jet, fires it up, the panoramic cockpit display comes up. We have different sensors on the airplane. One of them is an electro-optic system” called EODAS for short, he said. “Envision a little window pops up and says: ‘latest EODAS software update ready for download, yes or no?’ Similar to what you do on your smartphone.”

That will entail changing the F-35’s acquisition strategy to allow for agile software development where development and testing happen concurrently, and incremental updates are continuously pushed out, he said.
The result will allow the JPO to more effectively prioritize corrections for software and firmware deficiencies that impact every part of the F-35 enterprise, including the sensors, mission-planning system and logistics suite, he said.

Those deficiencies are usually pretty trivial — for instance, a map that refreshes in five seconds instead of the three seconds specified by requirements — but they need to be corrected, he said.

“There is a DR [deficiency report] database against the 3F capability. We are going to continue to chip away where we have time and it makes sense, to enhance and improve the Block 3F capability while putting the design/development plan together for these brand new requirements and bring them into a blended correction of deficiency and Block 4 development delivery,” he said.

https://www.defensenews.com/smr/def...office-floats-new-agile-acquisition-strategy/

USAF said at the end of march that if the support costs are not decreasing by 38% (a straw ), IT WILL HAVE TO CUT THE TOTAL NUMBERS BY 590 (on the 1763 of the beginnng).

=> USAFwill, as ALL the other customers, cuts its orders. So the final and definitiv price of the F35 is :
- Not really known (because cuts in Qty)
- Increasing (contrary to the propaganda of LM).

Wonderfull !!!
My sole opinion is the last word .... All the rest came from a identified source, quite serious.

So your claim is more a confession how embarassed you are than anything else.

Nope, your opinion isn't only the part in blue, you cut out very important detail in the article

The Air Force analysis doesn’t represent anything close to a final decision, according to spokeswoman Ann Stefanek. The potential reduction in aircraft was a “staff assessment on aircraft affordability. It’s premature for the Air Force to consider buying fewer aircraft at this time,” Stefanek said.

Tha same can be said about your own opinion.
To be a F35 blind supporter, despite all the technicals shortfalls, timeout, over budget really make you the amateur of the forum.

The difference is, unlike you, i actually do understand the technical aspect of stealth/radar/IRST/Aerodynamic, and i don't form my opinion based on tabloid article

 

[BON PLAN]

Nope, your opinion isn't only the part in blue, you cut out very important detail in the article

Absolutely not.
I'm not at home for the week. Next monday I will send you scan of the article, so you can see it's all the truth and anything else.

 

[BON PLAN]

The difference is, unlike you, i actually do understand the technical aspect of stealth/radar/IRST/Aerodynamic, and i don't form my opinion based on tabloid article

Ah Ah Ah...
So you are the only one understanding things on this forum? total BS ! Are you so disapointed by the reality?

And... Tabloid is an english psecialty, not a french one.

 

[Immanuel]

"The UK Department of Defense [MoD] was pinned by the House of Commons Public Accounts Committee, which in a May 11 report said it "just does not have enough money to acquire all the equipment he needs.

...

the public accounts committee warned of a "worrying" funding gap, with variances from forecast costs ranging from 4.9 to 20.8 billion pounds. In addition, this would leave no room for maneuver to take into account other threats, such as cyber, or strategic innovations, particularly in the field of artificial intelligence"

http://www.opex360.com/2018/05/14/r...iards-deuros-programmes-de-marins-nucleaires/

And you always think GB will order 138 x F35?

NOOOOO WAYYYYY

Sure, they have a funding gap, everyone in EU does, it seems you forget half the Rafales in France sit around eating dust partly because of no money. They'll find a way to prioritize and find a way to phase their order much like India is doing with Rafale. India too has funding gaps but buying 36 more Rafale at a later date is very much possible.

 

[Immanuel]

Tha same can be said about your own opinion.

To be a F35 blind supporter, despite all the technicals shortfalls, timeout, over budget really make you the amateur of the forum.

Well no one here a blind supporter of anything.

Technical shortfalls are 'meant' to be found in the test phase and yes the F-35 has had very rocky start and several delays but no one else has taken up a program of this scale ever. Many aspects of the F-35 are revolutionary and are years ahead of any of the 4.5 gen aircraft. While the Rafale still doesn't have a good helmet mounted cueing system.

 

[BON PLAN]

They'll find a way to prioritize and find a way to phase their order

OR NOT !

A 7th Astute is waiting funds.
The Daring Destroyers has no anti ship missile.
The SSBN program is the priority 1.
The Pound has lost 20% of its value.
Brexit is to come, with the maximum effects to come.

See the EF program : GB didn't take all the 232 planes. F35 will follow the same way.