F-35 Joint Strike Fighter

[Immanuel]

The closer Britain gets to Brexit, the closer it gets to recession

http://www.businessinsider.com/author/jim-edwards

Well no one doubted that there will be a short term economic down turn from leaving the EU. What I said was 10 years down the line UK will be UK while EU will probably collapse into a Banana Republic. UK will survive, they're just jumping off a sinking ship and good for them, they'll get wet in the process but they won't go down with the ship. Brexiting was also their choice and they are very used to thriving in tough times far more than any of the EU countries, you can thank them for this ability & their resilience (with the mass of British Indian Army) is the reason that you all celebrate your freedom.

 

[Immanuel]

What a melting pot ! Rafale, F35, EU, UK.... Stop writing just to write. It's all BS.

BS that you started writing like a headless chicken

 

[Armand2REP]

Well no one doubted that there will be a short term economic down turn from leaving the EU. What I said was 10 years down the line UK will be UK while EU will probably collapse into a Banana Republic. UK will survive, they're just jumping off a sinking ship and good for them, they'll get wet in the process but they won't go down with the ship. Brexiting was also their choice and they are very used to thriving in tough times far more than any of the EU countries, you can thank them for this ability & their resilience (with the mass of British Indian Army) is the reason that you all celebrate your freedom.

UK could SNUB US fighter jets and opt for cheaper EUROPEAN aircrafts after defence review

THE UK Government is considering backing out of a multi-billion-pound deal to buy a new generation of US fighter jets and instead purchase cheaper European jets, in an epic snub to the country across the pond.
By Martina Bet
PUBLISHED: 00:52, Thu, May 17, 2018 | UPDATED: 01:24, Thu, May 17, 2018

Getty Gavin Williamson seems to favour the option that would ensure the viability of a joint European jet

The Ministry of Defence has already acquired 48 aircrafts from the US at a cost of £91billion but instead of honouring the pledge to buy an extra 138 F-35 fighter jets, it is now looking at purchasing Eurofighter aircrafts, made by a European consortium.

This bone of contention has been linked to the Westland scandal, a struggle during Thatcher’s Government in 1985-86 over whether a US or a European-led consortium should take over Britain’s last remaining helicopter company.

The affair resulted in the resignation of the then defence secretary Micheal Heseltine and a weakened Government.

Gavin Williamson, the Defence Secretary, is planning to publish a defence review in July, which could bring into question the affordability of the new F-35 Lightning II air, the most expensive but technically advanced fighter jet in history.

Related articles

• 
  
  Ministry of Defence faces a £21BILLION budget shortfall

Williamson also set in motion a Combat Aircraft Industrial Strategy, which will be published this summer and will decide the future spending on jet fighters and determine whether the UK will opt for a European fighter over a US-developed jet, despite Brexit.

The Defence Secretary seems to favour the option that would ensure the viability of a joint European jet fighter business until 2050 at least.

However, US ambassador Woody Johnson pointed out last week some of the components of the “amazing” American aircraft - in particular the tailplane - are being manufactured in the Britain by BAE Systems, which means that the project provides thousands of jobs for an estimated value of £13billion to the UK economy.

Mr Johnson previously said he was very impressed by the joint partnership between the UK and the US.

Getty

The new F-35 Lightning II air is the most expensive but technically advanced fighter jet in history
He said: “This is an example of a programme that is absolutely incredible. The UK is going to make a lot of money. There are going to be a lot of job.”

Despite the comments, the Ministry of Defence is currently negotiating with the Joint Programme Office, the US department in charge of contracts, over the expensive cost of the Lockheed Martin built aircraft.

Mark Francois, Conservative MP, former defence minister and a member of the defence select committee also raised concerns over the affordability of the American aircrafts: “We are sceptical about the viability of all 138 aircraft, which is what we are theoretically committed to.

“Unless Lockheed Martin can bring the cost down, the F-35 will suck up other funds for other programmes in the defence budget.

Gavin Williamson: Russia ripped up the international rule book

“If the costs continue as they are that will have a serious knock-on effect to the rest of the defence spending programme.”

He added: “The MoD are looking again at the costs of the F-35. The question remains from aircraft 49 onwards how many of these are you going to end up buying and the MoD is looking at that at the moment.”

The first four F-35s will be delivered to the UK by the US next month and will be based at RAF Marham in Norfolk.

The cheaper European option, Eurofighter Typhoon, which is jointly built by Germany, Italy and Spain, as well as the UK is already in service with the RAF but in order to compete with the more technically advanced and more expensive F-35 will require a mid-life upgrade.

Tim Ripley, aerospace expert at Jane’s Defence Weekly, commented on the row comparing it to the Westland affair.

PA

Gavin Williamson will publish a defence review in July over the affordability of the F-35
He said: “It’s shaping up to be a grand stand-off, a transatlantic dog-fight, the defence-industrial saga of the summer and a Westland-esque moment for the British Aerospace industry.”

Mr Ripley also said that the Defence Secretary was “reputedly dead keen on the European plane”, which is the reason why he launched the Combat Aircraft Strategy.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...-US-American-military-jets-European-aircrafts

 

[Immanuel]

The stupid here is you. And you know that.

So just explain me why the RAF didn't want to train against Rafale since a famous 7-1 in Corsica....
And the RAF planes were not F4, nor Tornado, but brand new EUROFIGHTER...

OK WTF does Corsica have to do with anything?

It's a fact my dear. G factor is one of the deciding factor for agility. Pilot skill, T/W ratio, ITR ... are others. but a 7.5G limited plane in front of a 9G one with same skilled pilot, same classe T/W etc... lose. it's as simple as that.

Stealth is made of shape and material. But in a plane case you can't put all the RAM you want or adopt all the shape you want. So it'a a compromise. No plane is 360° stealthy. So is the F35.

You claimed better G performance equals wins but I said that it was horseshit with a cherry on top. Eitherway, Rafale with combat load cannot attain 9G while a F-35 with full internal load can.

 

[Immanuel]

UK could SNUB US fighter jets and opt for cheaper EUROPEAN aircrafts after defence review

THE UK Government is considering backing out of a multi-billion-pound deal to buy a new generation of US fighter jets and instead purchase cheaper European jets, in an epic snub to the country across the pond.
By Martina Bet
PUBLISHED: 00:52, Thu, May 17, 2018 | UPDATED: 01:24, Thu, May 17, 2018

Getty Gavin Williamson seems to favour the option that would ensure the viability of a joint European jet

The Ministry of Defence has already acquired 48 aircrafts from the US at a cost of £91billion but instead of honouring the pledge to buy an extra 138 F-35 fighter jets, it is now looking at purchasing Eurofighter aircrafts, made by a European consortium.

This bone of contention has been linked to the Westland scandal, a struggle during Thatcher’s Government in 1985-86 over whether a US or a European-led consortium should take over Britain’s last remaining helicopter company.

The affair resulted in the resignation of the then defence secretary Micheal Heseltine and a weakened Government.

Gavin Williamson, the Defence Secretary, is planning to publish a defence review in July, which could bring into question the affordability of the new F-35 Lightning II air, the most expensive but technically advanced fighter jet in history.

Related articles

• 
  
  Ministry of Defence faces a £21BILLION budget shortfall

Williamson also set in motion a Combat Aircraft Industrial Strategy, which will be published this summer and will decide the future spending on jet fighters and determine whether the UK will opt for a European fighter over a US-developed jet, despite Brexit.

The Defence Secretary seems to favour the option that would ensure the viability of a joint European jet fighter business until 2050 at least.

However, US ambassador Woody Johnson pointed out last week some of the components of the “amazing” American aircraft - in particular the tailplane - are being manufactured in the Britain by BAE Systems, which means that the project provides thousands of jobs for an estimated value of £13billion to the UK economy.

Mr Johnson previously said he was very impressed by the joint partnership between the UK and the US.

Getty

The new F-35 Lightning II air is the most expensive but technically advanced fighter jet in history
He said: “This is an example of a programme that is absolutely incredible. The UK is going to make a lot of money. There are going to be a lot of job.”

Despite the comments, the Ministry of Defence is currently negotiating with the Joint Programme Office, the US department in charge of contracts, over the expensive cost of the Lockheed Martin built aircraft.

Mark Francois, Conservative MP, former defence minister and a member of the defence select committee also raised concerns over the affordability of the American aircrafts: “We are sceptical about the viability of all 138 aircraft, which is what we are theoretically committed to.

“Unless Lockheed Martin can bring the cost down, the F-35 will suck up other funds for other programmes in the defence budget.

Gavin Williamson: Russia ripped up the international rule book

“If the costs continue as they are that will have a serious knock-on effect to the rest of the defence spending programme.”

He added: “The MoD are looking again at the costs of the F-35. The question remains from aircraft 49 onwards how many of these are you going to end up buying and the MoD is looking at that at the moment.”

The first four F-35s will be delivered to the UK by the US next month and will be based at RAF Marham in Norfolk.

The cheaper European option, Eurofighter Typhoon, which is jointly built by Germany, Italy and Spain, as well as the UK is already in service with the RAF but in order to compete with the more technically advanced and more expensive F-35 will require a mid-life upgrade.

Tim Ripley, aerospace expert at Jane’s Defence Weekly, commented on the row comparing it to the Westland affair.

PA

Gavin Williamson will publish a defence review in July over the affordability of the F-35
He said: “It’s shaping up to be a grand stand-off, a transatlantic dog-fight, the defence-industrial saga of the summer and a Westland-esque moment for the British Aerospace industry.”

Mr Ripley also said that the Defence Secretary was “reputedly dead keen on the European plane”, which is the reason why he launched the Combat Aircraft Strategy.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/960897/Brexit-news-Gavin-Williamson-US-American-military-jets-European-aircrafts

Well actually this is no different than USAF claiming they'll look at cutting 590 orders, this is all an excercise that could lead to nothing. Even if brokeass EU and Britian can't afford the F-35, doesn't matter. The aircraft will have around 2000 units in domestic builds with atleast another 500-1500 orders for export. LM will make it's money, US Govt. will make it's money and program will be a long term success. By the time a joint EU aircraft is is made, the F-35 will be available for export at a far lower price where a EU plane can't even compete on the same level.

 

[Armand2REP]

Well actually this is no different than USAF claiming they'll look at cutting 590 orders, this is all an excercise that could lead to nothing. Even if brokeass EU and Britian can't afford the F-35, doesn't matter. The aircraft will have around 2000 units in domestic builds with atleast another 500-1500 orders for export. LM will make it's money, US Govt. will make it's money and program will be a long term success. By the time a joint EU aircraft is is made, the F-35 will be available for export at a far lower price where a EU plane can't even compete on the same level.

USAF cutting, USN cutting, RAF cutting, Turkey sanctioned, Italy already cut and may cut again, Korea under DAPA probe... the future doesn't look anything like they planned. You forget that the F-35 was originally billed as costing the same as an F-16, we all know how that turned out.

 

[BON PLAN]

While F-35 is 9 capable wth ful internal load, so there is no comparison. Your Rafale will be gasping to turning while the F-35 will out turn it.

Rafale is fully 9G in a air superiority config, ie with full fuel, all the AAM needed, and up to 3 1200L external tanks.

the rest is simply.... an @Immanuel joke.

 

[BON PLAN]

So 36 Rafale costing India €7.8 billion i.e €216 million per unit so whats the issue here? At £187 million which at today's conversion is €213 million, so actually the F-35 is cheaper.

You are so angry and blind that you compare just dry planes on the GB one side and planes+7th years support+weapons+bases accomodation+50% offset on the indian side.

Try to modify the reality as you want. At the end the truth remain the truth : The Fat Turkey is a money black hole.

 

[BON PLAN]

LM will make it's money,

SURE !!!

money is the only last thing they managed to. F22 was their last technical success.

 

[BON PLAN]

The British Government is committed to buying 138 F-35 fighter aircraft from US manufacturer Lockheed Martin.
The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has so far bought 48 aircraft at a cost of £9.1 billion but is now reconsidering its pledge to buy a further 90 F-35s.

Instead, the Telegraph understands it is looking at purchasing Eurofighter jets, made by a European consortium that includes the UK.
The European manufactured jets are currently, on best estimates, about half the price of an F-35.
Gavin Williamson, the Defence Secretary, is publishing a defence review in July, which may cast doubt on the affordability of the further 90 F-35 Lightning II aircraft, the most expensive but technically advanced fighter jet in history.

He has also launched a Combat Aircraft Industrial Strategy, due to report in the summer, which is set to decide the balance of future spending on jet fighters - and whether the UK goes for a predominantly European fighter, despite Brexit, or a US-developed jet.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ge-buy-american-fighter-jets-could-play-like/

@smestarz @Immanuel

 

[BON PLAN]

https://www.rt.com/uk/426991-eurofighter-f-35-bae-williamson/

More F-35s vs the Eurofighter: MoD decisions as funding gap row grows

At the latest estimate, the cost of a Eurofighter and the fifth-generation F-35 comes in at £87 million and £197 million respectively. So far, the UK has paid for 49 F-35s at a cost of £9.1 billion to the taxpayer.

waiting your answers....

 

[BON PLAN]

Specially for @StealthFlanker

So if you understand the french half the way I do for english, you will realize I only write the exact truth.

Have a nice day.

 

[StealthFlanker]

Are you serious?

Yes iam, i said real value and not some forum guesstimate or outright nonsense like what put out by Picard.

Gmax = 11G (used for exemple during the rafale display solo)

F-35A was tested to 9.9G
As impressive as that may sound, it really doesn't have much impact in reality. Firstly, apart from sea level or low altitude condition, you will be out of lift before you can reach your structure G limit.
Secondly, it is not unusual for pilot to over G their aircraft, the 6.5G limited F-14 pulled 8-9G many times in exercise, the 5G limited Mig-25 once pulled 8G, whereas F-4 and F-15 pulled 12G in combat.
Thirdly, G pulled is not directly proportional to turn rate, in other words, an aircraft pulled 11G while another pulled 7G that doesn't mean the 11G aircraft turn 50% faster. For example, at 10k feet, an F-16 pulled 9G ,0,8M have the same turn rate as F-14 pulling 6.5G at 0.6M.

ITR >> 30°/sec
STR > 24°/sec (360° in less than 15sec)

I can be almost 100% certain that these number didn't come from Dassault but rather some forum rumor. Feel free to prove me wrong with some reputable sources.
With that being said, those value still doesn't say much because you need to know altitude and speed (that why they used doghouse plot rather than fixed value to evaluate aircraft agility).
Any way,
F-35 block 3i demonstrated ITR around 35-40°/second
(turn 70-80° between 5:03-5:05)

Dutch F-35 demonstrated STR around 25.7°/second
(turn 180° between 2:44-2:51)

roll rate : 270°/sec (Peter Collins, british test pilot : "The steady state roll rate at 350kt was 270°/s and the roll onset felt rapid but comfortable. At 450kt, the same steady-state roll rate was achieved, but the rate of roll onset was simply staggering. I have never experienced any fighter aircraft start or stop to roll so quickly ..." )

Sound decent, not as crazy as the A-4 720°/sec roll rate, but then again, it is the on-set roll rate value that is important rather than the steady state roll rate because the main purpose of the roll is to jerk the enemy off your 6

Thrust to Weight Ratio ( for air to air load at sea level ) : 1.10 ~ 1.15 with afterburners , 0.73 to 0.77 without afterburners

as explained earlier, T/W doesn't really tell you anything

Maybe because of air intake limitation, or stall due to the wing arrangment ?

It because the flow is blocked by the airframe and can't reach the single vertical stabs at high AoA.

Rafale has its air domain open up to 100° AoA (OK, not so manoeuver there)

Rafale was tested for spin resistant at 100° AoA but in operational its' FCS isn't open up to 100° AoA. The very same way F-16, F-15,F-14 was tested at 100-110° AoA in operational their AoA limit is significantly lower (such as only 25-16° AoA for F-16). Ability to resist spin or recover from spin at high AoA such as F-15/F-16/F-14 is very different from having a high level of control authority at high AoA like F-18, F-22, F-35, Sukhoi.
Even pre-IOC F-35 can generate a constant 28°/sec pedal turn
https://www.heritage.org/defense/re...rgues-full-program-procurement-and-concurrent

and 15kt (15kt used by a test pilot during a simulated combat against a M2000)

Du côté des basses vitesses, la limite est 100 kt mais 80 kt est parfois pratiqué lors des démonstrations en vol par des pilotes désireux de mettre en valeur les qualités de l’avion. Un minimum de 15 kt a été pratiqué dans un exercice de combat contre on Mirage 2000 par un pilote vindicatif

http://rafalefan.e-monsite.com/medias/files/essais-en-vol.pdf
so 15kt is the exception rather than the rule, kinda similar to one Mig-25 that pulled 8G in combat, normally Rafale is limited to minimum of 80-100 kt. On the otherhand, we see F-35 demonstrated post stall manuevers where it stop moving forward all the time

Rafale is fully 9G in a air superiority config, ie with full fuel, all the AAM needed, and up to 3 1200L external tanks.

Source?

 

[StealthFlanker]

Specially for @StealthFlanker
So if you understand the french half the way I do for english, you will realize I only write the exact truth.
Have a nice day.

you know that the original article is actually the one i posted right?

 

[Immanuel]

Rafale is fully 9G in a air superiority config, ie with full fuel, all the AAM needed, and up to 3 1200L external tanks.

the rest is simply.... an @Immanuel joke.

Complete nonsense, there is no proof of this, besides all that weight would mean the Rafale's wings would rip off.

You are so angry and blind that you compare just dry planes on the GB one side and planes+7th years support+weapons+bases accomodation+50% offset on the indian side.

Try to modify the reality as you want. At the end the truth remain the truth : The Fat Turkey is a money black hole.

Complete nonsense, all US deals when finally signed always have training, infrastructure, service, maintenance costs included in the deal value. You seem to be the only cock gobbler who doesn't get this point. Here's an example for Korea (60 offer for 10 billion, finally 40 signed for 7 billion, funny they are asking for 20 more now)

Read if you can you little mdget

The Government of the Republic of Korea has requested a possible sale of (60) F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Conventional Take Off and Landing (CTOL) aircraft. Aircraft will be configured with the Pratt & Whitney F-135 engines, and (9) Pratt & Whitney F-135 engines are included as spares. Other aircraft equipment includes: Electronic Warfare Systems; Command, Control, Communication, Computer and Intelligence/Communication, Navigational and Identification (C4I/CNI); Autonomic Logistics Global Support System (ALGS); Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS); Full Mission Trainer; Weapons Employment Capability, and other Subsystems, Features, and Capabilities; F-35 unique infrared flares; reprogramming center; F-35 Performance Based Logistics. Also included: software development/integration, aircraft ferry and tanker support, support equipment, tools and test equipment, communication equipment, spares and repair parts, personnel training and training equipment, publications and technical documents, U.S. Government and contractor engineering and logistics personnel services, and other related elements of logistics and program support. The estimated cost is $10.8 billion.

http://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/korea-f-35-joint-strike-fighter-aircraft

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/21/impossible-predict-costs-f-35-numbers-may-fall-mps-hear/

Likewise the UK deal worth, read again

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/21/impossible-predict-costs-f-35-numbers-may-fall-mps-hear/

Britain has already signed a contract for the first batch of 48, which are estimated to cost £9.1bn by 2025, including support such as training and maintenance.

So yes, the F-35 for the UK is cheaper still than Rafale for India.

 

[Immanuel]

https://www.rt.com/uk/426991-eurofighter-f-35-bae-williamson/

More F-35s vs the Eurofighter: MoD decisions as funding gap row grows

At the latest estimate, the cost of a Eurofighter and the fifth-generation F-35 comes in at £87 million and £197 million respectively. So far, the UK has paid for 49 F-35s at a cost of £9.1 billion to the taxpayer.

waiting your answers....

Again I say this to you, you are full of shit, the facts remain 48 for £9.1 billion is cheaper than 36 Rafale for India. 48 for the UK will come by 2025 and there is no rush to order another 90 which they will later on. They will be shocked to learn the EF with all the upgrades to make it good including new avionics etc. will cost them just the same if not more. By 2023 The F-35 line will be red hot and that's when you order Block 4 version and take deliveries over 7-8 years and in those timelines 90 for the UK should be affordable. There is nothing stopping the UK from renegotiating it's pledge and spread it's deliveries.

 

[BON PLAN]

Secondly, it is not unusual for pilot to over G their aircraft

Only non FBW plane. F35 is FBW so non relevant.

F14 was a flying brick. Only the Top Gun fan think it's an agile plane. In 2001, first training between F14 and Rafale was a butchery. Rafale take the lead at first turn. It need 3 turns to beat FA18.

If max G is so useless, why the high speed, high altitude F22 is designed for high agility ?
Same about stealth : why F22, able according to some fan like you to kill its ennemy before beeing seen has 2 x AIM9 ???

But it's not your first contradiction.

 

[BON PLAN]

I can be almost 100% certain that these number didn't come from Dassault but rather some forum rumor. Feel free to prove me wrong with some reputable sources.

First Farnborough show, in 1986 : Rafale made a 360° turn in less than 15 seconds. It was a written milestone in the development agreement between Dassault and french DGA.
360°/15 s = 25°/sec. And ITR of a Delta is always far superior to STR (a quality/défault well know of all the Delta plane : their ability to move the nose quickly, but with a lost of energy. So a Delta pilot has to take the lead in the beginning of a fight, because after that it will lose faster its energy than a classical tailed plane. A classical aspect of the F16 vs M2000 trainings)

Feel free to give me reputable source about RCS of the F35.

 

[BON PLAN]

F-35A was tested to 9.9G

In static maybe .

 

[BON PLAN]

F-35 block 3i demonstrated ITR around 35-40°/second

Ah Ah Ah.... 40°/sec. And why not 50° ?