F-35 Joint Strike Fighter

[BON PLAN]

A rare instance where Republicans and Democrats can agree: Opposing the costly and wasteful F-35

ESR | November 23, 2020 | A rare instance where Republicans and Democrats can agree: Opposing the costly and wasteful F-35

 

[BON PLAN]

An analogy would be:

F-35

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Bon Plan:Nothing Special. Tech well known in Rafale.


Rafale

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Nice indeed.
Same price level,
same level of reliability.

 

[BON PLAN]

PAF Fears Rafale Ambush, Cautions forward bases – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

 

[MUCSpotter]

F-35 USAF Heritage Flight P-51D Mustang Supermarine Spitfire Flyby

 

[BON PLAN]

F-35 USAF Heritage Flight P-51D Mustang Supermarine Spitfire Flyby

The Spitfire heritage : the F136 powerplant.

Oh shit ! it was canceled

 

[Manticore]

The Spitfire heritage : the F136 powerplant.

Oh shit ! it was canceled

 

[BON PLAN]

That old good stealth....

Yes, Serbian Air Defenses Did Hit Another F-117 During Operation Allied Force In 1999

New details regarding the incident confirm long-standing rumors of an F-117 being damaged by a surface-to-air missile over Serbia.

www.thedrive.com

 

[Manticore]

That old good stealth....

Yes, Serbian Air Defenses Did Hit Another F-117 During Operation Allied Force In 1999

New details regarding the incident confirm long-standing rumors of an F-117 being damaged by a surface-to-air missile over Serbia.

www.thedrive.com

Then it's a good thing that only the US is going down this dead end tech path and not every other military on earth. If France does not have stealth for their next gen then I will accept it, but if they are then you can't have it both ways. Also, do not bring up any electronics defence because everyone has that and is upgrading that too.

 

[Fonck83]

Then it's a good thing that only the US is going down this dead end tech path and not every other military on earth. If France does not have stealth for their next gen then I will accept it, but if they are then you can't have it both ways. Also, do not bring up any electronics defence because everyone has that and is upgrading that too.

That's not even the subject. Stealth is of course a must have asset. Submarines use stealth from long time ago and of course france is perfectly aware of the advantages of such technology. No the problem is that the second hit of the f-117 has been from decades negated by the US.
And sorry but with Spectra active stealth is perfectly mastered by France.

 

[Swiftfarts]

The European T/R modules are smaller than the old US ones selled by uncle Sam to France for prototyp.
And th european one are also more efficient.
The RBE2 AA (prototyp) offered a 30% increased range over PESA.
The serialy produce RBE2 AESA offer a 70 to 100% increase in range. With the same nose cone.

there is a limit to how small they can be and how much you can fit and no.... Euro TRM are no smaller than US one but bigger and no more efficient and i can prove it.
Let's calculate shall we. Here is the equation.

E = (4*A)/lamda ^2.

E = number of elements.
A= antenna physical area.

aperture size Diameter of Rafale is 55 cm and since antenna size of a radar need to be comparable to it's wavelength and RBE2 AESA being and X band radar.
the wavelength is between 2.5cm - 3.75cm.
Using above equation , we can easily calculate hypothetical TRM fill factor in Rafale main radar.

Since official TRM count is 838 in RBE 2 AESA on a 55cm diameter aperture we can calculate the Lamda value using above formula easily.

838 = (4)(2375.83)/x^2
838 = 9503.32/X^2
838x^2 = 9503.32
838x^2/838 = 9503.32/838
x^2 = 11.340
X = √11.340
X= 3.36.

So lamda is 3.36 well with X band and close to upper 3.75cm limit which make TRM quite big.

hypothetical TRM fill factor is between 675 minimum and 1520 max at 100% fill factor no gap nothing which is still less than 1676 TRM count of F 35 radar.

at 1676 TRM count and with 70 cm aperture size Lamda value turn out to be around 3
Well within X band and smaller than lambda value for RBE2 AESA. Which means AN/APG 81 AESA TRM are smaller , much more densely packed than that in RBE 2 AESA. so sorry to bust your bubble bon plan you are wrong once again like most of the times.

 

[BON PLAN]

there is a limit to how small they can be and how much you can fit and no.... Euro TRM are no smaller than US one but bigger and no more efficient and i can prove it.
Let's calculate shall we. Here is the equation.

E = (4*A)/lamda ^2.

E = number of elements.
A= antenna physical area.

aperture size Diameter of Rafale is 55 cm and since antenna size of a radar need to be comparable to it's wavelength and RBE2 AESA being and X band radar.
the wavelength is between 2.5cm - 3.75cm.
Using above equation , we can easily calculate hypothetical TRM fill factor in Rafale main radar.

View attachment 68984

Since official TRM count is 838 in RBE 2 AESA on a 55cm diameter aperture we can calculate the Lamda value using above formula easily.

838 = (4)(2375.83)/x^2
838 = 9503.32/X^2
838x^2 = 9503.32
838x^2/838 = 9503.32/838
x^2 = 11.340
X = √11.340
X= 3.36.

So lamda is 3.36 well with X band and close to upper 3.75cm limit which make TRM quite big.

hypothetical TRM fill factor is between 675 minimum and 1520 max at 100% fill factor no gap nothing which is still less than 1676 TRM count of F 35 radar.

View attachment 68984

at 1676 TRM count and with 70 cm aperture size Lamda value turn out to be around 3
Well within X band and smaller than lambda value for RBE2 AESA. Which means AN/APG 81 AESA TRM are smaller , much more densely packed than that in RBE 2 AESA. so sorry to bust your bubble bon plan you are wrong once again like most of the times.

My dear fart,
I just said that The euroepan T/R modules useds in the RBE2 AESA are more efficient than the US ones used on the AA prototyp (because I really have a doubt that our dear ally sent to a fierce competitor the best components on the shelf in overall dimension and efficience).
I already explained why.

Stop counting the modules on the sole official pic of the Rafale radar : it is a +/- 15 years old pic, the prototyp one. All know that this prototyp was made of less than 850 modules.
And It's an evidence the modules are becoming smaller and smaller. The reduced thickness is the key to produce the then to come conformal array.

More modules on the APG? why not. It's not and it wasn't my point.

 

[Swiftfarts]

Stop counting the modules on the sole official pic of the Rafale radar : it is a 12 years old pic, the prototyp one. All know that this prototyp was made of less than 900 modules.

did you even read the post ? There is a physical limit to how many TRM can be packed in 55 cm diameter main aperture of Rafale and that limit is 1520 TRM max ( 2.5 cm Lamda ) at 100% fill factor in Rafale which is impossible by the way if you still stuck in X band.
That still less than 1676 TRM count on AN/APG 81 AESA of F 35....since technological level are same ( both are top class western airborne AESA ) TRM factor alone give F 35 radar superior advantage over RBE 2 from range to resolution to better LPI, ECM, ECCM capabilities etc.
Until you can provide pic of RBE 2 AESA with more TRM count as you claimed.
Your point can not be taken seriously about smaller TRM and other things.

 

[BON PLAN]

Until you can provide pic of RBE 2 AESA with more TRM count as you claimed.
Your point can not be taken seriously about smaller TRM and other things.

My dear Fart,
Thales didn't communicate an official RBE2 AESA pic.
The AA radar was built in 2004-2006. You can easily imagine that the US didn't sent the best components, and that huge progress have been made since.

 

[Fonck83]

Since official TRM count is 838 in RBE 2 AESA

No official TRM count in RBE2-AA are said to be around 1000 by Thalès Itself. But the efficiecy of such an antenna doesn't rely only on the TRM count but much more on the energy dissipation. And you can perhaps recognize that french mastered such technomogy since we are able to obtain a thickness of 5cm for an GaN antenna.

 

[Swiftfarts]

My dear Fart,
Thales didn't communicate an official RBE2 AESA pic.
The AA radar was built in 2004-2006. You can easily imagine that the US didn't sent the best components, and that huge progress have been made since.

Cut your BS buddy it doesn't matter if it has little bit more TRM ( which is very unlikely by the way ), it will still be inferior on every parameter other than probably miniaturisation and packaging. Let's say even if it has more TRM , it doesn't matter since theoretical limit is 1520 elements. Still less than 1676 elements in current AN/APG 81 AESA radar of F 35. Same limit is 2643 elements for F 35 radar.

No official TRM count in RBE2-AA are said to be around 1000 by Thalès Itself. But the efficiecy of such an antenna doesn't rely only on the TRM count but much more on the energy dissipation. And you can perhaps recognize that french mastered such technomogy since we are able to obtain a thickness of 5cm for an GaN antenna.

French members are sounding more and more like russian, Indian & Chinese Fanboys lately. there is basically no proof of either higher TRM count or greater efficiency of Thales radar.

 

[BON PLAN]

Cut your BS buddy it doesn't matter if it has little bit more TRM ( which is very unlikely by the way ), it will still be inferior on every parameter other than probably miniaturisation and packaging. Let's say even if it has more TRM , it doesn't matter since theoretical limit is 1520 elements. Still less than 1676 elements in current AN/APG 81 AESA radar of F 35. Same limit is 2643 elements for F 35 radar.

It is very strange that request to have a big antenna on a stealthy fighter, with a so amazing DAS....
But it doesn't hurt you.

 

[BON PLAN]

French members are sounding more and more like russian, Indian & Chinese Fanboys lately. there is basically no proof of either higher TRM count or greater efficiency of Thales radar.

French have the habbits to do easily things made with difficulty by the US.
A famous exemple : When France lauched the Nuclear deterrent sub + Sub lauched Missile programs, The famous Admiral Rickaver said : 'they will failed", because the Polaris Missile Program was difficult to fine tune.
And..... Yes ! we dit it ! on time, on spec, on budget.
Good fart my dear.

 

[Swiftfarts]

French have the habbits to do easily things made with difficulty by the US.
A famous exemple : When France lauched the Nuclear deterrent sub + Sub lauched Missile programs, The famous Admiral Rickaver said : 'they will failed", because the Polaris Missile Program was difficult to fine tune.
And..... Yes ! we dit it ! on time, on spec, on budget.
Good fart my dear.

Monsieur even french are bound by laws of nature and physics. it doesn't matter what some admiral said. You can not increase element count above 1500 without moving from X band to Ku band, it's physically impossible for such aperture even 1500 is impossible... best RBE 2 can achieve is 1000-1200 TRM using GaN probably that's it.

 

[StealthFlanker]

That's not even the subject. Stealth is of course a must have asset. Submarines use stealth from long time ago and of course france is perfectly aware of the advantages of such technology. No the problem is that the second hit of the f-117 has been from decades negated by the US.
And sorry but with Spectra active stealth is perfectly mastered by France.

if active cancellation actually worked, then Dassault 6 gen wouldn't have that easy to identify facet + blended edge stealth shape but it clearly is

 

[Fonck83]

Monsieur even french are bound by laws of nature and physics. it doesn't matter what some admiral said. You can not increase element count above 1500 without moving from X band to Ku band, it's physically impossible for such aperture even 1500 is impossible... best RBE 2 can achieve is 1000-1200 TRM using GaN probably that's it.

1 - Nice. Then we can agree than RBE2-AA can have 1000 elements ?
2 - Then do you agree that french are able to make a 5cm thick GaN antenna ?
3 - Consequently to the second point can you agree that rafale could have conformal antennas or 240 fov antennas.