F-35 Joint Strike Fighter

[Jameson Emoni]

It has a good AESA but it is still an F-15. The RCS on it is huge, Rafale will detect it long before it picks up a Rafale. With Meteor it is first, second even third shot before an F-15 could respond. By that time it is dead. F-15 is a brute force aircraft, it doesn't rely on low observability but the sheer firepower a flight of them carries. Rafale would pick them off like a sniper.

If US is willing to collaborate with India on Kaveri and willing to jointly produce F-15X in a significant number, I think India should consider F-15X. F-15Es have very good reputation against heavily defended targets.

 

[vampyrbladez]

If US is willing to collaborate with India on Kaveri and willing to jointly produce F-15X in a significant number, I think India should consider F-15X. F-15Es have very good reputation against heavily defended targets.

When we have a superior platform aka the Super Sukhoi and the Rafale, why do we go for a maxed out airframe?

Only the F 18 SH has some future in India. That too is dependent on how the US MiC behaves with respect to India's interests.

 

[Armand2REP]

The French over Lybia were dependent on US assets for SEAD. American SEAD were being conducted by Growlers and F-16s.

A flight of four Rafale was mapping Libyan air defences before the first shots were fired. The Tomahawks received targeting coordinates from Rafale intel. The Rafale does have confirmed SEAD missions over Libya. The US had no carrier strike group engage in the operation. France was the only one that brought an aircraft carrier.

 

[asianobserve]

It has a good AESA but it is still an F-15. The RCS on it is huge, Rafale will detect it long before it picks up a Rafale. With Meteor it is first, second even third shot before an F-15 could respond. By that time it is dead. F-15 is a brute force aircraft, it doesn't rely on low observability but the sheer firepower a flight of them carries. Rafale would pick them off like a sniper.

Better radar means the ability to see and fire first. Plus integrated EPAWSS, it means that against non-stealthy 4th and 4.5th gen fighters the F-15X will dominate.


And for all the hype over Meteor, it still has to shoot down and enemy fighter. AMRAAM on the other hand is already on its 8th evolution incorporating lessons learned from previous actions and failures making it a thoroughly battle tested A2A missile. And F-15X can carry 16 AMRAAMS if needed!

Of course in a real air war, F-15Xs will not operate alone. America's vast satellite systems, ISR and EW assets will provide a vast situational bubble for F-15X force. Plus the fact that F-22s and F-35s will actually be leading and passively absorbing all enemy electronic signals to pinpoint targets or avoid danger zones and datalinking what they see to F-15Xs behind them.

 

[Jameson Emoni]

When we have a superior platform aka the Super Sukhoi and the Rafale, why do we go for a maxed out airframe?

Only the F 18 SH has some future in India. That too is dependent on how the US MiC behaves with respect to India's interests.

I am interested in getting things built in India. And, I want to see them in large numbers. Rafale is not going to meet the numerical needs of IAF. I am OK with Su-30-MKIs if we build them in large numbers. We need to tackle this number problem.

 

[asianobserve]

I stand to be corrected. With the use of Amber missile racks a single F-15X can carry a massive 22 AMRAAMs. That's 88 AMRAAMS for a 4-plane formation of F-15Xs! That's bomb trucking.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...15x-boeings-f-15c-d-eagle-replacement-fighter

 

[Jameson Emoni]

I stand to be corrected. With the use of Amber missile racks a single F-15X can carry a massive 22 AMRAAMs. That's 88 AMRAAMS for a 4-plane formation of F-15Xs! That's bomb trucking.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...15x-boeings-f-15c-d-eagle-replacement-fighter

Out of Su-30-MKI, Rafale and F-15X, which is the cheapest ?

 

[asianobserve]

Growlers can do EW. F 16 can't even hold a candle to the Rafale!

It's SEAD or suppression of Enemy Air Defense. The F-16 has a special variant for it called F-16CJ.

 

[asianobserve]

Out of Su-30-MKI, Rafale and F-15X, which is the cheapest ?

The MKI of course. But you also get the most inferior fighter of the three. I mean there will be no more WW2 style air war that demands thousands of fighters in the air at once. What future air war will look like are quick and brutal fights with the winners and losers determined in seconds. The losers in fact will not know they already lost until the winning missile slams into his aircraft.

So the fighter that can look and shoot first wins. It also means the fighter with the best sensors in terms of sensitivity, agility, power, EW capabilities, and best integration of the sensors, most intuitive for pilot wins.

And we're not even talking here of stealth.

 

[Jameson Emoni]

The MKI of course. But you also get the most inferior fighter of the three. I mean there will be no more WW2 style air war that demands thousands of fighters in the air at once. What future air war will look like are quick and brutal fights with the winners and losers determined in seconds. The losers in fact will not know they already lost until the winning missile slams into his aircraft.

So the fighter that can look and shoot first wins. It also means the fighter with the best sensors in terms of sensitivity, agility, power, EW capabilities, and best integration of the sensors, most intuitive for pilot wins.

And we're not even tslking hete of stealth.

Very good. Su-30-MKI is out of the picture.

Between Rafale and F15X, which one is cheaper?

 

[asianobserve]

Very good. Su-30-MKI is out of the picture.

Between Rafale and F15X, which one is cheaper?

F-15X's price is still currently unknown. But sources are pointing that it will be competitive with Rafale around $70M, fly-away, area. But one of the biggest difference is airframe life. While Rafale only has 6,000-8,000 airframe life, F-15X has 20,000 airframe life! Now, that's a great maintenance and operational cost reduction for F-15X operators.

 

[asianobserve]

Here is a good overview of F-15X capabilities:

But I would still go for F-35 if forced to choose between the two.

Btw, based on the above, price of F-15X is $74M that will last for 20,000 hours!

 

[Deathstar]

Here is a good overview of F-15X capabilities:

But I would still go for F-35 if forced to choose between the two.

Btw, based on the above, price of F-15X is $74M that will last for 20,000 hours!

20000 hours service life? Woah thats huge....... Whats sevice life of comparable aircrafts?

 

[Jameson Emoni]

F-15X's price is still currently unknown. But sources are pointing that it will be competitive with Rafale around $70M, fly-away, area. But one of the biggest difference is airframe life. While Rafale only has 6,000-8,000 airframe life, F-15X has 20,000 airframe life! Now, that's a great maintenance and operational cost reduction for F-15X operators.

Is F15X only available off the shelf or is US willing to work with India on setting up a factory in India -- kind of like F16 deal?

 

[vampyrbladez]

It's SEAD or suppression of Enemy Air Defense. The F-16 has a special variant for it called F-16CJ.

Rafale has an integrated EW system aka the SPECTRA EW akin to the DAS of the F 35 and the MLD of F 22.

 

[asianobserve]

20000 hours service life? Woah thats huge....... Whats sevice life of comparable aircrafts?

6,000 - 8,000 for Western aircrafts.

 

[asianobserve]

Is F15X only available off the shelf or is US willing to work with India on setting up a factory in India -- kind of like F16 deal?

It will depend I guess on the volume of order of India. But I don't think the IAF is looking for F-15class fighter for it already has MKI (which badly needs MLU as it is already outdated compared to its potential adverssries). MKI needs AESA, better sensors integration, better EW capabilities, better missiles and HMD.

 

[vampyrbladez]

The MKI of course. But you also get the most inferior fighter of the three. I mean there will be no more WW2 style air war that demands thousands of fighters in the air at once. What future air war will look like are quick and brutal fights with the winners and losers determined in seconds. The losers in fact will not know they already lost until the winning missile slams into his aircraft.

So the fighter that can look and shoot first wins. It also means the fighter with the best sensors in terms of sensitivity, agility, power, EW capabilities, and best integration of the sensors, most intuitive for pilot wins.

And we're not even talking here of stealth.

The MKI has an N011 BARS radar with 400 Km search and 200 Km track range. The radar can detect a MiG 29 (3-5 msq) sized object at 140 Km+ range. This is nearly the upper envelope of the SABR style F 15X radar. The N035 IBRIS radar gives the same specs for around 3msq targets.

The soon to be outfitted AL41-FS will allow for a TWR of 1.13+ and a supercruise ability of around M 1.1+ will make it kinematically superior to the F 15X.

https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/06/article/russia-offers-china-more-su-35-fighter-jets/

Upgrades to the EW suite of the MKI will allow it to be the penultimate air superiority multirole platform this side of Asia.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.econ...t-sukhoi-upgrade/amp_articleshow/70746927.cms

DARE had developed the Trap, Trumpet, Tempest, Tusker Pod based jammers which are in use with IAF Mig-27s. They are primarily noise jammers coupled with the Tarang RWR. Being noise jammers they had serious limitations with respect to power consumption, vulnerability to enemy detection, effectiveness against frequency hopping emitters.

The Elta EL/L-8222 Airborne Self Protection Jammer (ASPJ) pods are a standard fit on the SU-30MKI, Jaguar, Mig-21, Mig-27 with the LCA also tested with it. It operates on the Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM) principle where it receives, detects, classifies the signal waveforms, stores them, adds a delay and sends it back to the adversary emitter to be picked up, thereby giving incorrect range data and even azimuth if the scan patterns are known. In comparison with noise jammers they have lower power consumption and are difficult to detect and counter. DRFM jammers severely degrade adversary radars and missile seekers.

At Aero India 2017 Alpha Design had showcased upgraded packages for the Elta EL/L-8222 ASPJ to convert them to wide band EL/L-8222WB pods in cooperation with IAI. This upgrade will allow them to counter a wider variety of radio frequency threats.

DARE at Aero India had also indicated that it had developed a High Band Jammer (HBJ) pod for SU-30MKI aircraft to be carried at the wingtips. The new indigenous pod is expected to have better integration with the RWR on board than the existing Russian SAP-518 pods.

http://forceindia.net/cover-story/future-of-war/

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/02/how-a-secretive-drdo-lab-is-saving-the-iaf-su-30mki.html

 

[Armand2REP]

Better radar means the ability to see and fire first. Plus integrated EPAWSS, it means that against non-stealthy 4th and 4.5th gen fighters the F-15X will dominate.


And for all the hype over Meteor, it still has to shoot down and enemy fighter. AMRAAM on the other hand is already on its 8th evolution incorporating lessons learned from previous actions and failures making it a thoroughly battle tested A2A missile. And F-15X can carry 16 AMRAAMS if needed!

Of course in a real air war, F-15Xs will not operate alone. America's vast satellite systems, ISR and EW assets will provide a vast situational bubble for F-15X force. Plus the fact that F-22s and F-35s will actually be leading and passively absorbing all enemy electronic signals to pinpoint targets or avoid danger zones and datalinking what they see to F-15Xs behind them.

You are ignoring the fact that F-15 RCS is 70X larger than a Rafale. Is the F-15 radar 70X better than an RBE2 AESA? Is the range of AMRAAM greater than Meteor? The bottom line is the Rafale will detect an F-15 long before it detects Rafale and with the extreme range and capability of Meteor, no F-15 stands a chance. Even antiquated MiG-21s can sneak up and pick them apart. Rafale would completely destroy them.

 

[Armand2REP]

If US is willing to collaborate with India on Kaveri and willing to jointly produce F-15X in a significant number, I think India should consider F-15X. F-15Es have very good reputation against heavily defended targets.

If US is willing to give engine core tech for Kaveri I agree, it would be a no brainer. However, the US will never do that so France is the only choice. No one cares about F-15s, it is an antiquated airframe that is going backwards in time.