DRDO, PSU and Private Defence Sector News

[IndianHawk]

America is not building 4.5 gen they building FA-XX
And Drones

So far 4.5 gen fighter is just on paper or in media

No Major Military firm taken contract to build the fighter.
Yet.

Infact F-35 is not yet canceled and its just media conjecture.
They just manufacture over 620+ F-35 till 1 March 2021

https://www.f35.com/content/dam/lockheed-martin/aero/f35/documents/F-35%20Fast%20Facts%20-%20March%202021.pdf

There were supposed to order 1700+ f35 just for usa. Now there is talk of curtailing the number to 1000+ and go for 4.5 gen new bird ( based on digital design which usa is developing for 6th gen) . Let's see where it goes.

One major factor against f35 is it's operating cost which is still above 36000 $ per hour. While they want to bring it under 25000$ per hour but right now seem unable to do it. It will be too costly to Operate at these numbers hence all this talk about reducing f35 number.

Other issues are lack of supercruise , restricted manoeuvrability and maintenance of stealth coating.

 

[IndianHawk]

LOL OCRA is Still on paper My friend

You can always create AMCA naval Project
Cancel OCRA

So TEBDF is As superficial As Naval AMCA

AMCA naval will not work. Navalising a airforce jet mostly results in severe compromises . Example mig29k , su33 , j15 . All of them are suffering from various issues j15 is a complete failure while mig29k is soldiering on with more spares and maintenance.

Correct way is to build a naval jet first and then convert it to airforce version ex . Rafale . Or build a clean sheet naval jet ex. FA 18.

So navy is going for a clean sheet Design which is already semi stealth and adequate for now. And which will in future evolve into a proper naval stealth jet when budget and technology allows for it.

That's the logic of tedbf. Navy will finally have it's own Design to work with and evolve as per naval needs.

Orca is just a proposal as of now. Just like Rafale derived from Rafale M. Airforce may or may not go for it.

There are more reasons to go for it than not. It will provide rafalesqu capabilities for much less money. And will be far cheaper to operate and procure compared to AMCA whose stealth will make it expensive to buy and operated and hence limit the numbers. While IAF needs to expand massively to keep up with chinese and dominate entire southern eastern Asia along with navy.

 

[WARREN SS]

There were supposed to order 1700+ f35 just for usa. Now there is talk of curtailing the number to 1000+ and go for 4.5 gen new bird ( based on digital design which usa is developing for 6th gen) . Let's see where it goes.

One major factor against f35 is it's operating cost which is still above 36000 $ per hour. While they want to bring it under 25000$ per hour but right now seem unable to do it. It will be too costly to Operate at these numbers hence all this talk about reducing f35 number.

Other issues are lack of supercruise , restricted manoeuvrability and maintenance of stealth coating.

Well I am not gunning for F-35
But US has practically huge requirements to there budget

There issues with F-22 that still persistent
But they fly it because it gives them aur dominance
In air combat

A LCC of F-22 is over 500 million per aircraft.

If u find F-35 its practically decent aircraft
With teething issues
That can be corrected

Nevertheless it not for India.

MIC in rivalry In US eating them within themselves.

 

[WARREN SS]

AMCA naval will not work. Navalising a airforce jet mostly results in severe compromises . Example mig29k , su33 , j15 . All of them are suffering from various issues j15 is a complete failure while mig29k is soldiering on with more spares and maintenance.

Correct way is to build a naval jet first and then convert it to airforce version ex . Rafale . Or build a clean sheet naval jet ex. FA 18.

So navy is going for a clean sheet Design which is already semi stealth and adequate for now. And which will in future evolve into a proper naval stealth jet when budget and technology allows for it.

That's the logic of tedbf. Navy will finally have it's own Design to work with and evolve as per naval needs.

Orca is just a proposal as of now. Just like Rafale derived from Rafale M. Airforce may or may not go for it.

There are more reasons to go for it than not. It will provide rafalesqu capabilities for much less money. And will be far cheaper to operate and procure compared to AMCA whose stealth will make it expensive to buy and operated and hence limit the numbers. While IAF needs to expand massively to keep up with chinese and dominate entire southern eastern Asia along with navy.

Well

TEDBF is practically a a 4.5 gen aircraft

India has requirement of 150-200
Naval aircrafts for next 30 years

TEDBF if sanctioned not comes before 2032
It requires atleast 10-15 billion $ project cost
For aircraft alone not to mention
Navy wants Another nuclear CATOBAR CBG
That will cost 10 -12 billion $

So they need atleast 25-30 billion $ additional in next 10 years

Not mention
S-5 Submarines
Barracuda/ scorpene
And SSN project
More Powerful Destroyers ,Figrates and corvette
Misc cost Awacs,Other surveillance aircrafts

So the getting this Much budget from MOD
Is superficial

Airforce and Army will squeeze there balls with

Let's hope for best Fanboi's

 

[IndianHawk]

Well I am not gunning for F-35
But US has practically huge requirements to there budget

There issues with F-22 that still persistent
But they fly it because it gives them aur dominance
In air combat

A LCC of F-22 is over 500 million per aircraft.

If u find F-35 its practically decent aircraft
With teething issues
That can be corrected

Nevertheless it not for India.

MIC in rivalry In US eating them within themselves.

Yes they are still operating f22 but it's numbers are way lowered than once planned and they are still operating f15e and now f15 ex which f22 was planned to completely replaced.

So 4.5 gen jets will also co exist with f35 deep into future. The f15 ex that usa is currently purchasing has service life of ridiculous 18000 hours. It is supposed to be in service for 50-60 years very easily.

Similarly us navy is ordering block 3 super hornet which will serve it for 40 years in future.

All in all US will have hundreds of 4.5 gen fighters operating even in 2050 -60.

For us we will be doing pretty good if we can manage 200 stealth jets by 2040 in service as tip of the spear while rest 4.5 gen do the grunt work.

 

[porky_kicker]

All the points and counter points given above might be legitimate or not.

but at the end of the day, stretching the discussion beyond a point doesn't make any sense because whatever happens will happen at the discretion of those in charge of the same.

so discussion is ok till a point , but beyond that it's waste of time. We all here cannot exert any influence by arguing. That's the sad truth.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Well

TEDBF is practically a a 4.5 gen aircraft

India has requirement of 150-200
Naval aircrafts for next 30 years

TEBF if sanctioned not comes before 2032
It requires atleast 10-15 billion $ project cost
For aircraft alone not to mention
Navy wants Another nuclear CATOBAR CBG
That will cost 10 -12 billion $

So they need atleast 25-30 billion $ additional in next 10 years

Not mention
S-5 Submarines
Barracuda/ scorpene
And SSN project
More Powerful Destroyers ,Figrates and corvette
Misc cost Awacs,Other surveillance aircrafts

So the getting this Much budget from MOD
Is superficial

Airforce and Army will squeeze there balls with

By 2030, I expect India's economy to at least get to $7.5 Trillion. This year Navy's CAPEX budget is $4.57 Billion. Our GDP growing to atleast 2.5X its present size by 2030 means Navy's CAPEX will see a commensurate increase of 2.5X.
So 2.5X4.57=11.43 i.e. Indian Navy's CAPEX in 2030 will be $11.43 Billion. And that is a very conservative estimate. Reasons this figure might be larger than this in 2030:-

• With Indian Army's cadre reviews rationalizing the pensions bill and revenue expenditure, the CAPEX will increase as a % of total defence budget.
• Indian economy will grow faster now with all the structural reforms happening. So instead of a mere 2.5X increase to $7.5 Trillion, we could instead be looking at around 8-10 Trillion USD, especially if Modi gets re-elected and continues the Atmanirbhar, Infrastructure and Reform trajectory.

Even if it is $11.4 Billion, that is a big number. With current annual CAPEX of $5 Billion, Air Force is making deals that cost $5 Billion apiece, deals like S-400 and Tejas Mk1A. Similarly, with a $11.43 Billion annual CAPEX, Navy will be able to make these $10 Billion apiece deals.

 

[WARREN SS]

All the points and counter points given above might be legitimate or not.

but at the end of the day, stretching the discussion beyond a point doesn't make any sense because whatever happens will happen at the discretion of those in charge of the same.

so discussion is ok till a point , but beyond that it's waste of time. We all here cannot exert any influence by arguing. That's the sad truth.

Well DFI is open for conjuction by all Military enthusiasts
Until
The debate goes beyond core standards
Like off topic or Personal baiting.

We do it it in SF thread we hope
That Like DFI
MOD has Experts who Freely
Put out there Plans and idea of Reforms
Infront of Politicians

But sadly MOD is another relic of Babudom
And 80's Bureaucracy.

We debate it here hoping someday
Someone from
The top will here voices of DFI or other Indian forums

Guys like me who are in the System try to change the mindset of people around us
But sadly quality of requirement in Govt jobs is pathetic in india specifically at lower tier grouP
B, C&D

 

[IndianHawk]

Well

TEDBF is practically a a 4.5 gen aircraft

India has requirement of 150-200
Naval aircrafts for next 30 years

TEDBF if sanctioned not comes before 2032
It requires atleast 10-15 billion $ project cost
For aircraft alone not to mention
Navy wants Another nuclear CATOBAR CBG
That will cost 10 -12 billion $

So they need atleast 25-30 billion $ additional in next 10 years

Not mention
S-5 Submarines
Barracuda/ scorpene
And SSN project
More Powerful Destroyers ,Figrates and corvette
Misc cost Awacs,Other surveillance aircrafts

So the getting this Much budget from MOD
Is superficial

Airforce and Army will squeeze there balls with

Let's hope for best Fanboi's

Nothing wrong with being fanboi sometimes. Just 15 years ago who would have thought India would be building 11 frigate + 4 destroyers+ 6ssk + 4 ssbn + 16 Corvettes + 1 Aircraft carrier simultaneously. + And many more).

But today that's exactly what we are doing.

Budget will grow with the economy. Some programs will have to be prioritised over others and some will have to wait.

Catobar carrier may need to wait for while.

Tedbf on the other hand is a priority as mig29k has several limitations and imports are even more costly.

Tedbf will save money and reinvest in indian economy compared to import of Rafale m or fa18.

This year capex budget for armed forces rose 19 %.

Even if we project moderate 10-12 capex growth per year. We shall see decent expansion of navy over the year.

This year navy capital outlay is 33253 crore which is almost 4.6 billion USD.
So over next 20 years ( since a catobar carrier would require 15 years to design and build and put to service) navy will have almost 117 Billion usd for capex by simple calculation ( 10% capex growth per year) in today's money.
Now adjust it for inflation and we shall have much much bigger amount at hand.

So we shall be fine budget wise.

 

[Karthi]

New submarine cover (17°42'23"N, 83°16'23"E) constructed at Vizag is 40m longer than first one. India’s third SSBN will be longer with more missile tubes than the 4 on first two boats. Current missile compartment is ~15m with tubes in row instead of pairs as other navies have.

https://t.co/t0DqalsWk9

Actually it was there for some months.

 

[Vinod DX9]

DRDO AIP has marked successful operation , this is indeed an incredible achievement. Besides, light torpedo is tested from aircraft which enhances the range.

 

[Willy3]

View attachment 81433View attachment 81434View attachment 81435


New submarine cover (17°42'23"N, 83°16'23"E) constructed at Vizag is 40m longer than first one. India’s third SSBN will be longer with more missile tubes than the 4 on first two boats. Current missile compartment is ~15m with tubes in row instead of pairs as other navies have.

https://t.co/t0DqalsWk9

Actually it was there for some months.

So when we are talking about launch of next gen submarines in 2023, 2 of them are already doing harbour trial ?

Who knows how fast out nuclear submarine project going on.

 

[Karthi]

India Vs China Military Balance – Air Defense, Part-1-Chinese SAMs

Introduction Surface to air missile is a missile designed to destroy Aircrafts and other missiles. Surface-to-air missiles were developed to protect ground positions and ground troops from hostile...

fullafterburner.weebly.com

Details of Chinese SAM Systems.

 

[Willy3]

4.5+ or -5 gen fighters aren't going anywhere in next 30-40 years based on current technological complexities with 5th gen gets.

Looking back at history more the time passes the ages of each coming generations getting longer and longer..

Just think of it,
Mig 15 , french mystere jets, Sabre of US from 1st generation get obsolete within a decade and replaced with mig 19/21, mirage 3 etc, they were short-lived too as mig 23/upgraded 21 took the sky within 5/6 years after that.. but stays relevant for like 2 decade
They were there for more than twice the time than older generation before out gunned by 4th Gen f16, mig 29 etc... but many can still prove their metal like, showdown of 27th February.

4th generation jets with advance 4.9+ capacity is going to be relevant till like 2050/60 and it's good that navy recognise the need and not going for maintainance nightmare like 5th gen jet for now, especially when the technology isn't mature and not present in mass.

If TEDBF can be made quickly using knowledge from naval tejas and put in to the production by 2030 then it will be a great.

 

[Rassil Krishnan]

AFAIK even after having F35 and FA-XX USAF is still going forward with F-15EX, Super Hornets and a new 'clean sheet design' 4.5 gen aircraft to replace F16s.


https://aviationweek.com/defense-sp...-air-force-entertains-new-design-replace-f-16

Actually in this case I think they should just manufacture the latest block of f16.they just don't want to operate the latest f35,f22 jet for low danger operations like taking out muslim terrorists in the middle East,that is the requirement.they want a low end fighter relative to their overall standards in their current fighter mix.

Also I heard that the guy is just spitballing and is not super serious.also there is a rumour that this is proposal is to take away some of the pie of airforce procurement budget away from Lockheed martin.but overall it does not make sense as they could just make the latest f16 block dubbed the f21 if they want.

 

[porky_kicker]

LMG

 

[porky_kicker]

MGL

 

[porky_kicker]

JVPC

 

[porky_kicker]

AR

 

[porky_kicker]

Amogha 3