DRDO, PSU and Private Defence Sector News

[Butter Chicken]

They are providing subsystems like AESA radar,eots,irst?? Even we import stuff like ejection seat for our jets.

Will you consider T72/T90 tanks, soviet-era M30 gun or SU-30 MKI as Indian products? They have significant Indian content in them too.

 

[radion]

Will you consider T72/T90 tanks, soviet-era M30 gun or SU-30 MKI as Indian products? They have significant Indian content in them too.

I consider them more indigenous than directly importing stuff but less than what the Koreans are doing afterall we license produce them as well have Indian subsystems. I will consider it indian if we don't have to run to ruskies everytime we order it or bring some changes into the aircraft.Since then there is not much difference from an actual Indian aircraft,the only thing we lose is the experience in developing it.

GOI and hal should show them the middle finger and do what china did.

 

[Kuldeepm952]

5th gen is no easy task i agree which is why you should look at their aerospace industry achievements and the companies backing them. Those add credibility.And i am speaking based on that. Go have a look. Even experience doesn stop you from struggling as is shown by Americans.
btw about that windtunnel stuff that you posted.Surely they are not smart enough to outsource that? Even we did that according to saurav jha with amca sending it to USA.


IN shot itself in the foot by not designing its own SSK .They and the taxpayers have to pay the price now. Seriously even a substandard one would've been ok if they kept iterating and improving. But you know they want the BEST OF THE BEST which caused every country except one to abandon p75i.Whoops..the remaining contender is also Korean.Whose defense industry is the source of our argument.They imported two classes,the third one is their domestic design which also has SLBM's included into it.A version of which they are offering us.Us who design SSBN'S.

Thankfully l&t has started taking steps towards it with SOV 400.

Yeah, but I refuse to take any comparision of AMCA with TAI Tfx and KF21 seriously.

 

[radion]

Yeah, but I refuse to take any comparision of AMCA with TAI Tfx and KF21 seriously.

For that we need to wait for the future.
Tfx we can take it lightly,but kf21 we can't. 5th gen are expensive ,they did the smart move by going for 4.5 and then later 5th gen version of the same jet.Much cheaper in the long term and maintenance friendly in the long term

 

[The Saffron Knight]

How many more ToTs until we design a conventional sub?No way a conventional one could be more complex than a nuclear one. It's funny ;we designed arihant yet when it come to conventional ones there's not much progress.Only ToTs and ToTs.

Actually Indian Navy's SDG had already designed a Submarine based on the technology transfer of Type209 ( Shishumar-class).

The same route that South Korea took in it's submarine development program.

It ultimately was abandoned when a more advance Scorpene class was offered to India.Even now India can build it's own submarines based on Kilo & Shishumar-class.

There is a fare reasons why the Indian Navy is going for the most advance SSK for its feets. The detection of a Submarine through it's hydroacoustic or magnetic signature or even radio transmission frequency would directly lead to it being destroyed by enemy ships.

And the threat level at which South Korean submarines operate is very different from that of the Indian counterpart. North Korea's airborne anti-submarine warefare capability is pretty much non existent (though they may get help from China).

But Pakistan operates Sea Sultans. They do possess a potent anti-submarine warefare capability (though not compatible to India).

So we cannot compromise on the technological front for Submarines.

 

[SavageKing456]

KFX isn't even a proper 5th generation fighter as far as engaged systems are concerned. It's a dog fighter with poor stealth and indeed is an American-Korean joint venture with inputs from Lockheed (where Indonesia will only end up assemblies later).

The "other states" essentially are far from being a threat to India given low financial and industrial ability to field large no. of advanced systems. India's strict focus should be building homegrown capacity to end dependence on/inferiority against West, Russia and China. A "race" against countries with no real autonomous capacity would just be childish.

Capacity built today will bear fruits decades later too. Trying to field 5th g just few years "before" Turkey/Korea or humans in space just "before" Iran have absolutely zero long and short-term gains. That's only a 15 years old uneducated teeny nationalist stuff.
So what you are suggesting will be worst thing for Indian administration to do. But fortunately, they are mature and far sighted enough.
An independent AMCA in 2030 is better than an imported assembly in 2025 and a delayed but full fledged 400km multi-days long Gaganyaan and space station is better than a few minutes long 70-80km high mission Iran gonna for show off.

@Indx TechStyle made a good point which few members understand.
I've always said that focused shouldn't be on timeline but rather on technological advancements

 

[blackleaf]

For that we need to wait for the future.
Tfx we can take it lightly,but kf21 we can't. 5th gen are expensive ,they did the smart move by going for 4.5 and then later 5th gen version of the same jet.Much cheaper in the long term and maintenance friendly in the long term

KF21 (like the FA-50) got a lot of help from LM. The KF21 is a good 5th gen plane because of the help from LM. Apparently the Koreans promised to build a advanced 4.5 gen fighter but they used the technical assistance from LM to make a true 5th gen fighter without the internal weapon bays that will be added later.
They did a similar thing with the Russians getting S300 tech to make their medium range SAM system and P-800 tech to make their new supersonic anti ship cruise missiles.
Not to forget that they also used German tech to design their submarines. Even the API fuel cell is German which mean that they may not even be able to provide technology transfer without Germany's permission.

 

[radion]

KF21 (like the FA-50) got a lot of help from LM. The KF21 is a good 5th gen plane because of the help from LM. Apparently the Koreans promised to build a advanced 4.5 gen fighter but they used the technical assistance from LM to make a true 5th gen fighter without the internal weapon bays that will be added later.
They did a similar thing with the Russians getting S300 tech to make their medium range SAM system and P-800 tech to make their new supersonic anti ship cruise missiles.
Not to forget that they also used German tech to design their submarines. Even the API fuel cell is German which mean that they may not even be able to provide technology transfer without Germany's permission.

Them getting help shouldn't discredit the effort they are putting on their own. They still have to develop most of the critical tech.
We hired Dassault and LM(this one withdrew)as consultants for LCA.Does it discredit what we have done?

KSS-3 has indigenous fuel cell tho? Which sub are you talking about?

 

[radion]

Actually Indian Navy's SDG had already designed a Submarine based on the technology transfer of Type209 ( Shishumar-class).

The same route that South Korea took in it's submarine development program.

It ultimately was abandoned when a more advance Scorpene class was offered to India.Even now India can build it's own submarines based on Kilo & Shishumar-class.

There is a fare reasons why the Indian Navy is going for the most advance SSK for its feets. The detection of a Submarine through it's hydroacoustic or magnetic signature or even radio transmission frequency would directly lead to it being destroyed by enemy ships.

And the threat level at which South Korean submarines operate is very different from that of the Indian counterpart. North Korea's airborne anti-submarine warefare capability is pretty much non existent (though they may get help from China).

But Pakistan operates Sea Sultans. They do possess a potent anti-submarine warefare capability (though not compatible to India).

So we cannot compromise on the technological front for Submarines.

Do you not think of this as dumb? In search for better foreign stuff they ditched their own design.Heck,they could've followed up with better stuff to complement scorpene or even a TD. If they had followed through maybe we woulde've been where the Koreans are now.

 

[The Saffron Knight]

Do you not think of this as dumb? In search for better foreign stuff they ditched their own design.Heck,they could've followed up with better stuff to complement scorpene or even a TD. If they had followed through maybe we woulde've been where the Koreans are now.

Very true.
But you know that was the time when the foreign lobbies used to persuade the Naval officers with financial incentives & stuff.

The procurement of 2 more Shishumar-class was infact derailed when such scandals were unearthed.

The French were originally supposed to help us validate the design for Type 1500 ( Indian Type209). But they ended up selling us Scorpene.

 

[Kuldeepm952]

Do you not think of this as dumb? In search for better foreign stuff they ditched their own design.Heck,they could've followed up with better stuff to complement scorpene or even a TD. If they had followed through maybe we woulde've been where the Koreans are now.

Here is the cycle, every dfi member goes through
After some time nothing would faze you anymore

 

[radion]

View attachment 158893

Here is the cycle, every dfi member goes through
After some time nothing would faze you anymore

View attachment 158894

Looks like I've to readopt the chalta hei attitude again

 

[flanker99]

@Indx TechStyle made a good point which few members understand.
I've always said that focused shouldn't be on timeline but rather on technological advancements

I disagree focus should be on putting an acceptable product on users hands asap and then rapidly iterating over the base design to make it better wherever possible.
The next war will not wait for the perfect product.
But i also understand that for the above method to work there needs to be deep understanding between developer and user,timely funding and 100's of orders...this is when i sigh

 

[Indx TechStyle]

I disagree focus should be on putting an acceptable product on users hands asap and then rapidly iterating over the base design to make it better wherever possible.
The next war will not wait for the perfect product.
But i also understand that for the above method to work there needs to be deep understanding between developer and user,timely funding and 100's of orders...this is when i sigh

You may predict a war a couple of years earlier but not decades most certainly. As wars don't impart decades to someone for preparing, depending on foreign weapon systems will only land us in trouble at last. Like those countries denying spares or for e.g. US shutting off GPS during Kargil.

So the war threat for a couple of years to advocate foreign dependence is an absurd argument. Integration/assembly/import of foreign systems for India what Turkey and Korea are doing may or may not bear short-term fruits but its medium and long term consequences of this policy are 100% certain. Emulating Turkey or Korea way is mere a suicide for India.

The pathetic state of India's military industry, logistical and acquisition crises Indian armed forces are facing today is strictly the result of this argument.

Perfect or even acceptable product isn't easy to be provided in short term time so they chose other ways fearing ways. Wars just didn't but this stupidity ensured that Indian military's entire MIC and purchase programmes will be a complete a f*ck up. Isn't it?

Even current little improvements are a result of long experiences after failure+private subcontracting.

 

[radion]

I disagree focus should be on putting an acceptable product on users hands asap and then rapidly iterating over the base design to make it better wherever possible.
The next war will not wait for the perfect product.
But i also understand that for the above method to work there needs to be deep understanding between developer and user,timely funding and 100's of orders...this is when i sigh

Yaa...that's kinda not possible with 5th gen aircrafts which is why i didn't disagree with him wholly. Tech should matter as much as timeline.Or the forces will start importing . Let's not forget who these users are as well.Proper planning and execution is the key,I've said it before already.

 

[flanker99]

You may predict a war a couple of years earlier but not decades most certainly. As wars don't impart decades to someone for preparing, depending on foreign weapon systems will only land us in trouble at last. Like those countries denying spares or for e.g. US shutting off GPS during Kargil.

So the war threat for a couple of years to advocate foreign dependence is an absurd argument. Integration/assembly/import of foreign systems for India what Turkey and Korea are doing may or may not bear short-term fruits but its medium and long term consequences of this policy are 100% certain. Emulating Turkey or Korea way is mere a suicide for India.

The pathetic state of India's military industry, logistical and acquisition crises Indian armed forces are facing today is strictly the result of this argument.

Perfect or even acceptable product isn't easy to be provided in short term time so they chose other ways fearing ways. Wars just didn't but this stupidity ensured that Indian military's entire MIC and purchase programmes will be a complete a f*ck up. Isn't it?

Even current little improvements are a result of long experiences after failure+private subcontracting.

I dont get what ur point is?!....we will be reliant on foreign parts no matter what but atleast a product will be at users hand.
Brahmos imo is a good example at first it wasnt even 20% indian but now its close to 80 iirc.
Im not saying import jets im saying build a product asap and get it flying while concurrently indigenise/upgrade parts to make it top notch.
I mean an amca with modified tejas lru's with less stealth doesn't sound bad...the thing would be flying atleast....we are way behind in this game and we cant afford to dilly dally any longer ...remember people out main adversaries will not be waiting for us to catch up to them

 

[flanker99]

Yaa...that's kinda not possible with 5th gen aircrafts which is why i didn't disagree with him wholly. Tech should matter as much as timeline.Or the forces will start importing . Let's not forget who these users are as well.Proper planning and execution is the key,I've said it before already.

Its possible both US and china is doing it but in our context not so much.
We will save aside blns and keep asking for tot

 

[The Saffron Knight]

I dont get what ur point is?!....we will be reliant on foreign parts no matter what but atleast a product will be at users hand.
Brahmos imo is a good example at first it wasnt even 20% indian but now its close to 80 iirc.
Im not saying import jets im saying build a product asap and get it flying while concurrently indigenise/upgrade parts to make it top notch.
I mean an amca with modified tejas lru's with less stealth doesn't sound bad...the thing would be flying atleast....we are way behind in this game and we cant afford to dilly dally any longer ...remember people out main adversaries will not be waiting for us to catch up to them

You cannot import the parts that are denied to you.

Remember Dr Pratap from NAL elaborate how difficult it was for them to procure aerospace grade alloys for their small turbo jet engine program.

Appart from Midhani no other foreign OEM was willing to sell them the desired alloys. Apparently they wouldn't get security clearance from their Governments.

Same was the case after 2019 Kashmir events.
Germany denied permission to H&K from arms sale in India. Belgian FNH also walked out of FN SCAR/P90 deal for the Indian special forces.

So one can only imagine how difficult & tedious it would be for us to negotiate deals for our aerospace subsystems. And how vulnerable the support chain is.

So its better to take a little time but develop our own critical components. You cannot sabotage the production line in the middle of operation.

 

[flanker99]

You cannot import the parts that are denied to you.

Remember Dr Pratap from NAL elaborate how difficult it was for them to procure aerospace grade alloys for their small turbo jet engine program.

Appart from Midhani no other foreign OEM was willing to sell them the desired alloys. Apparently they wouldn't get security clearance from their Governments.

Same was the case after 2019 Kashmir events.
Germany denied permission to H&K from arms sale in India. Belgian FNH also walked out of FN SCAR/P90 deal for the Indian special forces.

So one can only imagine how difficult & tedious it would be for us to negotiate deals for our aerospace subsystems. And how vulnerable the support chain is.

So its better to take a little time but develop our own critical components. You cannot sabotage the production line in the middle of operation.

We must work with whats available whats not can be developed but having a working product is must.
Btw each and everyone of our indigenous weapons have some foreign components..the sword of foreign OEM's veto always hangs over our head..we dont have the scales of production required to produce everything inhouse

 

[no smoking]

High altitude test facilities for jet engines... Already have that for rockets though.

Completely 2 different thing. The difference between 2 is just like car vs bicycle.