DRDO, PSU and Private Defence Sector News

Arpuster

New Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2020
Messages
160
Likes
373
Country flag
Not always needed and some of these capabilities will increase cost of the missile we need a sub 300km subsonic missile thats as cheap as possible,has to be reliable and accurate which is exactly what nasm mr will be.
Due to complexities involved a star based CM will definitely be pricier than a subsonic CM but i suspect the technology will find itself on some missile sooner or later
New subsonic ASM arent that cheap. NSM & exocet mm40 block 3 cost 1-2 million$.
Whereas, STAR is a target drone which is meant to be cheap so a ASM derived out of it will also be cheaper and comparable to price of NSM & exocet block 3 while exceeding the capabilities. It will have huge potential in export market.
Meanwhile I feel CATS hunter will do the job of subsonic missile.
 

Chinmoy

New Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
8,930
Likes
23,094
Country flag
Anyone who has worked in forces or the procurement team of the Armed Forces could enlighten us about the testing protocol? Is it like developed along with PSQRs/GSQR? Or developed separately? Or evolves with time as the product has come? Like in this case, if "high altitude" trials were to be done, why not to have it done in parallel on a separate Rudra stationed in Leg/Ladakh? Or was it not planned initially and the idea of testing it in Ladakh developed during the course of testing in Rajasthan? Trial and Testing is one serious blackbox area. Testing protocol should be ideally finalised against the SQRs(functional requirement) and general requirements (Build quality parameters, maintainability parameters etc). It's not as if Ladakh has come into India's possession in 2021 and we decided to test our weapons for its suitability in a new terrain altogether
Let me chip in here.

To carry out simultaneous trials, you need to have a production line first for the prototypes. The faster the prototypes reach the user, faster would be the trials. But for any production agency, it would be too much to ask for to build a huge number of prototypes just for testing purpose. It would not be economically viable for them to do so. So the onus lies on the development lab only. So till now the safest way was to go to a DPSU to build a prototype. The primary reason behind the cumbersome and over stressed user trials is this piecemeal prototype numbers. This over stressed trial period means that by the time the final prototype comes out, one or other tech gets obsolete. For example, the initial flight trials of Helina was with cooled IIR seeker. The recent tests of yesterday and today was with uncooled IIR seeker.

Now coming to why it was not tested in Leh and Ladakh previously, I would give you a small snippet.

(2) The two sides shall reduce or limit the number of field army, border defence forces, paramilitary forces and any other mutually agreed category of armed force deployed in mutually agreed geographical zones along the line of actual control to ceilings to be mutually agreed upon. The major categories of armaments to be reduced, or limited are as follows: combat tanks, infantry combat vehicles, guns (including howitzers) with 75 mm or bigger calibre, mortars with 120 mm or bigger calibre, surface-to-surface missiles,surface-to-air missiles and any other weapon system mutually agreed upon.
This is from the 1996 agreement which we signed with China. I am posting the link herewith. You could see that we have also agreed upon not deploying any armed drones. This basically means that we have effectively killed the prospect of investing in UCAV by the time we started using drones for the first time.

https://peacemaker.un.org/sites/pea..._961129_Agreement between China and India.pdf

So its not the fault of user per se if they are testing the ATGM in Leh and Ladakh now. IA, IAF, IN works as per govt policy.
 

Covfefe

New Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2021
Messages
4,214
Likes
28,467
Country flag
The primary reason behind the cumbersome and over stressed user trials is this piecemeal prototype numbers
Prototypes anywhere are piecemeal only.

When was the last trial of Helina? Helicopter launched Nag missile (then named Dhruvastra) has been tested in the lofted trajectory in 2020 itself. No news of Ladakh tests came out for that variant, did it? We lost 2-2½ years there itself. Fabrication alone of one missile, that has already been fabricated before, cannot take 2 years- it's not a space shuttle. It seems to be a clear cut case of scope creep in testing protocol. If the users had asked for 5 missiles instead of 1 for testing the development labs could've very well supplied(maybe a slightly longer delivery schedule).
 

Kuldeepm952

New Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2019
Messages
947
Likes
4,969
Country flag
Prototypes anywhere are piecemeal only.

When was the last trial of Helina? Helicopter launched Nag missile (then named Dhruvastra) has been tested in the lofted trajectory in 2020 itself. No news of Ladakh tests came out for that variant, did it? We lost 2-2½ years there itself. Fabrication alone of one missile, that has already been fabricated before, cannot take 2 years- it's not a space shuttle. It seems to be a clear cut case of scope creep in testing protocol. If the users had asked for 5 missiles instead of 1 for testing the development labs could've very well supplied(maybe a slightly longer delivery schedule).
The sheer incompetency showed where trials are infinite is just embarassing here. If they wanted high altitude trials, shouldn't they have done parallel trials both in deserts and mountains?
Even commons sense is extinct in our procurement process, I wonder how our forces will preform in actual conflict, i'll say first let them get together their act otherwise the state of obselence of our army will be be forever and non-ending, even after 20 yrs, members would still be wondering about induction of modern indigenious stuff.
 

Chinmoy

New Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
8,930
Likes
23,094
Country flag
Prototypes anywhere are piecemeal only.

When was the last trial of Helina? Helicopter launched Nag missile (then named Dhruvastra) has been tested in the lofted trajectory in 2020 itself. No news of Ladakh tests came out for that variant, did it? We lost 2-2½ years there itself. Fabrication alone of one missile, that has already been fabricated before, cannot take 2 years- it's not a space shuttle. It seems to be a clear cut case of scope creep in testing protocol. If the users had asked for 5 missiles instead of 1 for testing the development labs could've very well supplied(maybe a slightly longer delivery schedule).
Last trial of Helina was in 2021. That too was a joint trial. That has been done in Pokhran range. In 2018 test, a new upgraded seeker has been used, but it was a imported one. The test was a partial success then. The inhouse upgraded IIR seeker was tested in 2021. First it was a ground based test of Dhruvastra, then aerial test in Pokhran.

Now while testing from aerial platform, you are not just testing the missile, but the launching platform too. Moreover the onboard power supply of Helina works for around 2 hr in desert condition. What is its durability in cold subzero temperature? Has it been mentioned anywhere?

What would be the effect of launching a 40kg+ missile at 5k mtr altitude on the helicopter? Remember that it was a LOBL launch whereas LOAL launch is still pending. Now remember that it was already been demonstrated in ground based test. But when you have to carry it out from aerial platform, you have to work on both the onboard RF transceiver. That too would work or show different characteristic in hot desert and cold mountainous condition.

So when it is said that Missile test was a success, just remember that media only reports whether it hit the target or not. They would not report or would never be told about how the missile as a system worked.

Another point to note which is never discussed is, how it has acted against the general protective measure of the target.
 

Srinie

New Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2021
Messages
136
Likes
903
Country flag
New subsonic ASM arent that cheap. NSM & exocet mm40 block 3 cost 1-2 million$.
Whereas, STAR is a target drone which is meant to be cheap so a ASM derived out of it will also be cheaper and comparable to price of NSM & exocet block 3 while exceeding the capabilities. It will have huge potential in export market.
Meanwhile I feel CATS hunter will do the job of subsonic missile.
The only problem is there will be no CATS hunter nor STAR missile until 2025.The fast option is getting a turbojet powered Nirbhay into production ASAP.
 

Srinie

New Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2021
Messages
136
Likes
903
Country flag
Last trial of Helina was in 2021. That too was a joint trial. That has been done in Pokhran range. In 2018 test, a new upgraded seeker has been used, but it was a imported one. The test was a partial success then. The inhouse upgraded IIR seeker was tested in 2021. First it was a ground based test of Dhruvastra, then aerial test in Pokhran.

Now while testing from aerial platform, you are not just testing the missile, but the launching platform too. Moreover the onboard power supply of Helina works for around 2 hr in desert condition. What is its durability in cold subzero temperature? Has it been mentioned anywhere?

What would be the effect of launching a 40kg+ missile at 5k mtr altitude on the helicopter? Remember that it was a LOBL launch whereas LOAL launch is still pending. Now remember that it was already been demonstrated in ground based test. But when you have to carry it out from aerial platform, you have to work on both the onboard RF transceiver. That too would work or show different characteristic in hot desert and cold mountainous condition.

So when it is said that Missile test was a success, just remember that media only reports whether it hit the target or not. They would not report or would never be told about how the missile as a system worked.

Another point to note which is never discussed is, how it has acted against the general protective measure of the target.
Helina does not have a LOAL capability so how are they going to test it. The 2021 test were to be the final tests till the Army suggested it wanted few more validatory tests which is par for the course in India.
 

Srinie

New Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2021
Messages
136
Likes
903
Country flag
It's time DRDO relinquishs it's fetish of conducting tests validating and then giving TOT to industry for final production . Testing should be the sole responsibility of the production agency will help it in planning manufacturing and upgrading it's facilities accordingly. The present system is just a bloated sloth that should be confined to history books
 

Chinmoy

New Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
8,930
Likes
23,094
Country flag
Link?? That too from ground based launcher, I don't think so... Even latest official brochure doesn't mentions LOAL anywhere
The first ground launches of the missiles were conducted in October 2011 during which the missile was launched onto the target. While the missile was in flight, a second target was chosen for the missile to hit, which was successfully destroyed. This demonstrated the capability of the missile to lock onto and hit another target while in flight. A two-way RF command-video data link has been released which is intended
to be fired from HAL ALH.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...inas-trial-conducted/articleshow/22955349.cms
 

Chinmoy

New Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
8,930
Likes
23,094
Country flag
Helina does not have a LOAL capability so how are they going to test it. The 2021 test were to be the final tests till the Army suggested it wanted few more validatory tests which is par for the course in India.
I provided the link for LOAL test.
 

Chinmoy

New Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
8,930
Likes
23,094
Country flag
It's time DRDO relinquishs it's fetish of conducting tests validating and then giving TOT to industry for final production . Testing should be the sole responsibility of the production agency will help it in planning manufacturing and upgrading it's facilities accordingly. The present system is just a bloated sloth that should be confined to history books
Already taken care in 2020.
 

Arpuster

New Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2020
Messages
160
Likes
373
Country flag
The only problem is there will be no CATS hunter nor STAR missile until 2025.The fast option is getting a turbojet powered Nirbhay into production ASAP.
Nirbhay based missile will be long range one. We are discussing medium range anti ship missile.
 

Articles

Top