DRDO, PSU and Private Defence Sector News

[ezsasa]

Looks like OFB sniper rifle is being purchased by forces under home ministry.

Maybe there is a policy change under Rajnath singh that if there is a domestic alternative, purchase will go ahead. No more waiting for Foreign maal alternative.

For this I will stop calling Rajnath singh "Kadi ninda" temporarily , until he utters the word again.

 

[Armand2REP]

@Armand2REP Now coming to Kargil War, you need to read some material so you can properly understand what I am trying to tell you.

High altitude warfare: the Kargil Conflict and the future. (Free pdf)

http://carnegieendowment.org/2012/09/20/airpower-at-18-000-indian-air-force-in-kargil-war-pub-49421

My Hyundai and someone else's Ferrari, both have 4 wheels. Doesn't make them equal.

So what I get from that is the combination of political red tape and the inability to differentiate targets in the rugged terrain made adequate use of air power difficult to impossible. It was only the French origin aircraft that had the serviceability to conduct recon and bombing flights in high tempo. The tides didn't turn until the use of M2000 with Paveways could make effective use of guided munitions from higher altitudes. The classic technique of close in CAS and target identification didn't work. IAF needed higher altitude video imagery in order to differentiate the enemy positions as soldiers moved about. FACs were not able to designate targets because they couldn't get close enough. Russian Hinds could not operate at that altitude and were not even safe while only Cheetak could make it.

So, if India had a geolocation system, as it does now, it would have coordinates to broadcast for strikes. If IAF had data links, as it does now, it could feed those coordinates into its targeting computer. That cuts through the problem of losing your place in similar terrain. If India had satellite imagery, UAVs and reco pods like it does now, getting solid targeting data would have been 10X easier. If you had attack helicopters that could operate in high altitudes, like India is getting now, you would have had a sustainable CAS presence.

My final thoughts on air power, I understand fully how hard it was. That is why we develop technology that makes it easier. India has been slow to gather these capabilities, but they have them and more are coming. The use of artillery and air power in Mali is still a lesson on how modern support fires should be conducted and I am not going to back off from that. I am proud of it.

 

[Armand2REP]

watch this if you haven't watched it already....
This speech gives a lot of context to what we are talking about..
========
Col. Lalit Rai VrC of the Indian Army -- Kargil War Story

Whoa brother, back the cart up. I am not criticizing the Indian Mountain Corps who had to suffer through the hardships of Kargil. I am well aware that mountain warfare is a specialty in India that special teams train in from all around the world... well aware of that fact. I am talking about the precision use of fire support. I don't even know how this got into a discussion of infantry tactics.

 

[ezsasa]

Whoa brother, back the cart up. I am not criticizing the Indian Mountain Corps who had to suffer through the hardships of Kargil. I am well aware that mountain warfare is a specialty in India that special teams train in from all around the world... well aware of that fact. I am talking about the precision use of fire support. I don't even know how this got into a discussion of infantry tactics.

No buddy, I am not saying you are criticising anything or anyone.

I am just sharing knowledge and information.

 

[Armand2REP]

No buddy, I am not saying you are criticising anything or anyone.

I am just sharing knowledge and information.

Very good, and I did watch the entire talk and learned quite a bit. Sharing knowledge is always awesome.

 

[sthf]

The use of artillery and air power in Mali is still a lesson on how modern support fires should be conducted and I am not going to back off from that. I am proud of it.

Good for you and you still missed the point. French operation in Mali and Kargil are completely different in scope, terrain, climate, combatants, tactics and political conditions.

I am not taking anything away from the French. In fact, it is probably the only successful COIN/CT operation by a Western country in the 21st century.

Just don't compare it to Kargil.

 

[Armand2REP]

Good for you and you still missed the point. French operation in Mali and Kargil are completely different in scope, terrain, climate, combatants, tactics and political conditions.

I am not taking anything away from the French. In fact, it is probably the only successful COIN/CT operation by a Western country in the 21st century.

Just don't compare it to Kargil.

Here is a scenario for you to consider. If France was tasked with doing the same in Kargil, how different an approach would air power and artillery support have been from the way it was conducted in Mali? Our helicopters can still operate in extreme altitudes, our aircraft can still provide guided munitions either laser or GPS. Our satellites can still deliver quality real time imagery along with UAVs, Reco pods and FACs. Caesar can still get accurate FC through indirect fires even popping over mountain ridges which it proved in Afghanistan. The 120 RT is still a deadly mortar even hitting the top of a mountain as it proved in Afghanistan. I doubt we would have to destroy the mountain face in order to neutralize the target... but I am just theorizing, or using Afghanistan as an example.

 

[sthf]

@Armand2REP France wouldn't have had the adequate numbers of infantry units to undertake such a mission. It still doesn't. Something Afghanistan should have taught you.

The biggest baddest country with most satalites, super helicopters and F-15s bowed down to illiterate goat fuckers on mountain tops. Multiply it by 50 and you get Kargil.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Anaconda

 

[Adioz]

I don't get why we are marrying the issue of Indian Army not having adequate SATA assets with the issue of French ops in Mali not being comparable to Kargil ops. The fact remains that the IA of today (with the SATA assets of today) would undoubtedly outperform IA of yesterday with more accurate firepower, better counterbattery action and better information for advancing infantry and better air support.

Yes Mali ops are not comparable to Kargil ops, but IMHO, Mali ops are an example of the increased efficiency that we can get once we have better target acquisition assets.

 

[Armand2REP]

@Armand2REP France wouldn't have had the adequate numbers of infantry to undertake such a mission. It still doesn't. Something Afghanistan should have taught you.

There you go trying to bring infantry into a fire support discussion. I can tell you taking the ground was not a problem for us in Afghanistan or Mali. Holding it is. Do we have enough forces to dislodge 5000 defenders, I think so when you account for how many of them will die without being able to fight back.

 

[Armand2REP]

I don't get why we are marrying the issue of Indian Army not having adequate SATA assets with the issue of French ops in Mali not being comparable to Kargil ops. The fact remains that the IA of today (with the SATA assets of today) would undoubtedly outperform IA of yesterday with more accurate firepower, better counterbattery action and better information for advancing infantry and better air support.

Yes Mali ops are not comparable to Kargil ops, but IMHO, Mali ops are an example of the increased efficiency that we can get once we have better target acquisition assets.

The original discussion is, do you need an OFB that can keep up with a protracted war. My reasoning is, you need an OFB that can fill the quotas of war stocks with quality ammunition for shorter wars which are the norm. Less worry about capacity and more focus on quality. Chances are if you enter WWIII with China the first thing on the target list are the OFB facilities.

 

[sthf]

There you go trying to bring infantry into a fire support discussion.

Dude, you asked me to put France in place of India.
As far as just fire support is concerned, this is precisely why I asked you to read those two papers. Two advantages France would have had are lobbing LGBs and better recon. FH-77B then was superior to anything France had at that time.Weather and terrain would have played spoil sport in air interdiction.

taking the ground was not a problem for us in Afghanistan or Mali. Holding it is.

That is how insurgency works. You play by their rules.

 

[Armand2REP]

Dude, you asked me to put France in place of India.
As far as just fire support is concerned, this is precisely why I asked you to read those two papers. Two advantages France would have had are lobbing LGBs and better recon. FH-77B then was superior to anything France had at that time.Weather and terrain would have played spoil sport in air interdiction.

That is how insurgency works. You play by their rules.

Going back to 1999, we still had thermal imaging recon from satellites to aircraft. We still had geolocation for coordinates. Our helicopters could still operate at high altitudes. Our artillery batteries still had digital FC. Our FACs still had the same equipment they use now, at least until Scorpion is implemented. The biggest difference is GPS guided munitions which helps in difficult weather, but even the paper you provided said 15 Corps didn't call for fire support the two days it was clouded over. The 155/52 round does the same damage coming out of a TRF1 as it does out of a Bofors. We had ours connected to digital FC and fire finding radars, yours went by visual observation as your RFP for the same system was held up. You didn't get the WLR until 2008.

That is how the US plays with insurgents. After our colonial period ended we learned that you get in, do the mission and get out. Support the locals to maintain it afterwards. As Kargil is your country, you put a forward base so they never sneak in again.

 

[Vijyes]

The original discussion is, do you need an OFB that can keep up with a protracted war. My reasoning is, you need an OFB that can fill the quotas of war stocks with quality ammunition for shorter wars which are the norm. Less worry about capacity and more focus on quality. Chances are if you enter WWIII with China the first thing on the target list are the OFB facilities.

If we go to world war 3, all the manufacturing capabilities will be behind mountain or underground. No nuclear bomb can breach that. Nukes only affect overground structures, not underground

 

[Vijyes]

The original discussion is, do you need an OFB that can keep up with a protracted war. My reasoning is, you need an OFB that can fill the quotas of war stocks with quality ammunition for shorter wars which are the norm. Less worry about capacity and more focus on quality. Chances are if you enter WWIII with China the first thing on the target list are the OFB facilities.

Delete this comment. Double posting.

 

[Armand2REP]

If we go to world war 3, all the manufacturing capabilities will be behind mountain or underground. No nuclear bomb can breach that. Nukes only affect overground structures, not underground

China launches strikes right now, is the OFB movable that quickly?

 

[Vijyes]

China launches strikes right now, is the OFB movable that quickly?

Then China will die too. 33% of India is urban while 60% of China is. So, there won't be any war soon. People are preparing for better times to strike. The prophetic Kalki will rise in 25 years. So, I have strong reason to say war will happen in 25 years

 

[sthf]

@Armand2REP France had a clear technological advantage over India, to which I completely agree. At the same time, US had much superior force during Operation Anaconda but results are for everyone to see. You can't just throw tech and money when mountain warfare is concerned. Something that I am trying very hard to make you understand.

I never realized that French Air Force's Mirage 2000Ds were providing air cover to US Forces in Shah I kot valley. Maybe some French sources can put some light on these operations from France's perspective.

 

[Flame Thrower]

@Armand2REP, I want to have a private chat with you on OFBs and I am unable to do so.

 

[sthf]

In the days before its launch, commanders assured their troops that ''every national asset'' -- satellites, spy planes, Predator drones -- was focused on the valley. Yet despite these high-tech systems, the intelligence estimate failed to accurately portray the enemy's size, location, principal weapons and course of action. Those same overhead systems also failed to notice that there were no civilians in the valley.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2003/03/02/opinion/the-lessons-of-anaconda.html