DRDO, PSU and Private Defence Sector News

[Kunal Biswas]

In military context, In modern warfare its factories behind the lines which decide the fate of a war, A army must get replenished its men and machine from within rather depend, Defense industry must remain strong and oiled at all times ..

If you worry about foreign exchange, defense purchases have very little has to do with it rather its civilian projects and import - export trade ( Small or big ) is directly responsible for it ..

Paying money within the economy only serves to boost economy and not harm it. It is foreign exchange which is the problem.

 

[Armand2REP]

In conventional warfare battles are won in days, you fight with what you have. You don't have time to build more. You only get that luxury fighting an unconventional enemy.

In military context, In modern warfare its factories behind the lines which decide the fate of a war, A army must get replenished its men and machine from within rather depend, Defense industry must remain strong and oiled at all times ..

If you worry about foreign exchange, defense purchases have very little has to do with it rather its civilian projects and import - export trade ( Small or big ) is directly responsible for it ..

 

[Kay]

In conventional warfare battles are won in days, you fight with what you have. You don't have time to build more. You only get that luxury fighting an unconventional enemy.

Are you talking about equal adversaries or unequal ones?

 

[Armand2REP]

I am talking about nation v nation. If one runs out of ammo the other is not going to wait for your factories to build more, ie China.

Are you talking about equal adversaries or unequal ones?

 

[Kay]

I am talking about nation v nation. If one runs out of ammo the other is not going to wait for your factories to build more, ie China.

War between technologically similar nations may last a long time - and initial ammo gets used up relatively quickly.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Best study about Kargil war and OFB Chanda in this regard ..

In conventional warfare battles are won in days, you fight with what you have. You don't have time to build more. You only get that luxury fighting an unconventional enemy.

I am talking about nation v nation. If one runs out of ammo the other is not going to wait for your factories to build more, ie China.

 

[Armand2REP]

I only have modern history to go by and it says modern wars between nations only last days to weeks.

War between technologically similar nations may last a long time - and initial ammo gets used up relatively quickly.

 

[Armand2REP]

Both sides went to war with what they had. Paks had less and had to roll boulders down the hill. India didn't give them time to rearm and if full war broke out Paks would be out of fuel in 6 days. However bad you think India had it, Pakistan was twice as bad. The problem with OFB was they didn't fill the quotas so they were short to begin with. If quotas are met, no shortage as war is over by then.

Best study about Kargil war and OFB Chanda in this regard ..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

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The problem with OFB was they didn't fill the quotas so they were short to begin with. If quotas are met, no shortage as war is over by then.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I didn't know we export British design to British, Also gud to know that Tajikistan use INSAS firearms ..

 

[Armand2REP]

Every gun in action fired over one round per minute for 17 days straight, or 250,000 rounds. Such rates of fire had not been seen since WWII. The question is, why were they fighting it like WWII? Answer was, they didn't have recon assets to pinpoint exact locations nor having modern fire control. They had to speed rush orders from Israel for UAVs and targeting pods because they didn't have what they needed and it forced an extremely high expenditure in ammunition that otherwise could have been saved. We faced similar terrain in the north of Mali, high rocky escarpments where infantry could not get a clear line of fire. We pulled up Caesar 155mm, 120mm RT F1 for indirect fire and Tiger and M2000s to bomb the enemy bunkers. The amount of rounds used were a little over a thousand. We had recon assets, digital fire control and accurate fires. When we got up to the top of the hills most of the positions were a bunch of dead bodies. We went around the backside of one and took them completely by surprise while the other squad distracted them with APAV grenades from the front. So what am I saying? You don't need WWII amounts of ammo if your indirect fires are made to count, ie force multipliers.

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[sthf]

We faced similar terrain in the north of Mali

No you didn't. The terrain is not even remotely similar. Mali has puny isolated hills without edges, Kargil in in the Himalayas, shares the neighbourhood with the likes of Annapurna. Rounds and bombs behave erratically in thin air and therefore IA's experience in Kargil and Siachen can't be compared to French one in Mali.

 

[Armand2REP]

Puny hills? Kargil is higher elevation but the outcrops are just as dramatic.

No you didn't. The terrain is not even remotely similar. Mali has puny isolated hills without edges, Kargil in in the Himalayas, shares the neighbourhood with the likes of Annapurna. Rounds and bombs behave erratically in thin air and therefore IA's experience in Kargil and Siachen can't be compared to French one in Mali.

 

[sthf]

Puny hills?

When compared to Indian mountain ranges, yes.

Kargil is higher elevation but the outcrops are just as dramatic.

I don't think you are correctly grasping what military operations in high altitude means. You are comparing apples to grapes or maybe peas.

 

[Armand2REP]

When compared to Indian mountain ranges, yes.

I don't think you are correctly grasping what military operations in high altitude means. You are comparing apples to grapes or maybe peas.
Rounds and bombs behave erratically in thin air

I don't think an extra 1200m changes the point I was trying to make. We had 40 degree heat to deal with as they are desert mountains. Each terrain presents its own unique challenges but the lessons learned can be applied just the same. Bombs acting erratically in thin air what? We drop bombs from ten times higher, The trajectory of 155mm artillery goes higher and your FC should compensate based on elevation. You did have FAC and FOs to correct anything out of the target zone. Simple fact was you didn't have adequate reconnaissance assets to get solid targeting data so you conducted saturation bombardment.

 

[Project Dharma]

you didn't have adequate reconnaissance assets to get solid targeting data

This is probably true at the beginning but we got Israeli Heron drones to assist in the targeting during the conflict.

I'm just guessing but probably poor visibility due to snowfall had a role to play in the way artillery was used. There was a lot of pressure on the government to end the war fast as it was due to an intelligence failure by Indian.

 

[Est22SF]

I don't think an extra 1200m changes the point I was trying to make. We had 40 degree heat to deal with as they are desert mountains. Each terrain presents its own unique challenges but the lessons learned can be applied just the same. Bombs acting erratically in thin air what? We drop bombs from ten times higher, The trajectory of 155mm artillery goes higher and your FC should compensate based on elevation. You did have FAC and FOs to correct anything out of the target zone. Simple fact was you didn't have adequate reconnaissance assets to get solid targeting data so you conducted saturation bombardment.

The highest point in Mali is 3,789 feet (1,155 metres) and the average height of fights in Kargil war was 4500-5000 metres. For tiger hill it's 17,411 ft (5,307 m).

As far as recon is concerned, we had less assets but please don't compare mountain warfare with hill-desert warfare.

 

[sthf]

@Armand2REP We will keep going round and round if you do not understand some basic concepts. The 1000 something meters height of Mali's "mountains" will be considered as hills from IA's perspective. So while Brits do an endurance test on 800m Pen y fan, Laddakh Scouts live and train (not mountain training, which goes at much higher altitude) at their regimental centre at 4000m. 1000-1500 m doesn't bring high altitude sickness into play and that alone sums up the false equivalence.

Same goes for 40℃. This is your average Indian summer, 40℃ everyday for months. If you are looking to move to India, keep this in mind.

 

[sthf]

@Armand2REP Now coming to Kargil War, you need to read some material so you can properly understand what I am trying to tell you.

High altitude warfare: the Kargil Conflict and the future. (Free pdf)

http://carnegieendowment.org/2012/09/20/airpower-at-18-000-indian-air-force-in-kargil-war-pub-49421

My Hyundai and someone else's Ferrari, both have 4 wheels. Doesn't make them equal.

 

[ezsasa]

In conventional warfare battles are won in days, you fight with what you have. You don't have time to build more. You only get that luxury fighting an unconventional enemy.

watch this if you haven't watched it already....
This speech gives a lot of context to what we are talking about..
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Col. Lalit Rai VrC of the Indian Army -- Kargil War Story