DRDO Phalcon style AWACS

[Wisemarko]

I have read a pilots opinion that MRTT will use the fuel for itself and its escorts for long endurance.

Generally he felt combining tanker with AWACS is not a good idea.

Can you give us reason why MRTT is a bad choice?
And I think there is going to be some Customization as well.

If u feel u have hint of why Netra is not reordered, please let us know as well.

Nethra does not compete well with Phalcon or even SAAB Erieye because customization to airframe is limited to antenna and some ELINT/COMINT. It can definitely get better with newer engines- more electric power and upgrades. Sadly, a bribery scam involving Embraer for this purchase sealed the option for more airframes.

Using AWACS for air refueling impractical and waste of money. Using an expensive AWACS system for petty work like refueling is out of question for any modern air force.

Here’s the reason- An upgraded IL-78MKI-90 tanker costs $200 million while Phalcon using the same airframe costs over $500 million. Carrying extra load of AWACS equipment for tanker role reduces its refueling capacity, speed and fuel economy due to extra weight and drag of a large radome.

Each flight-hour reduces airframe life of AWACS and exposes such sophisticated system to accidents, damage and wear. So using it for refueling role is absolute nonsense, especially when refueling aircraft are cheaper, more efficient and easily available. (Bedek Aviation can convert old 767 for $150 million)

 

[Shekhar Singh]

2 AWACS, air-to-air missiles on agenda for Netanyahu visit

Top diplomats based in New Delhi and Tel Aviv said on condition of anonymity that an advanced security liaison team from Israel will land in Delhi on September 2 to prepare ground for the prime ministerial visit.

Updated: Aug 27, 2019 07:39 IST
Shishir Gupta
Hindustan Times, New Delhi

While India has five AWACS platforms, Pakistan already has seven such with another three on order from China. (Reuters Photo)

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is expected to visit India for a day two weeks from now. On the agenda are the acquisition of two more Airborne Warning and Control Systems (AWACS) and extended range air to air Derby missiles by the Indian Air Force and joint projects in agriculture, water and waste management.

Top diplomats based in New Delhi and Tel Aviv said on condition of anonymity that an advanced security liaison team from Israel will land in Delhi on September 2 to prepare ground for the prime ministerial visit. While the exact date has not been decided, Netanyahu is expected to meet his friend Prime Minister Narendra Modi either on September 7 or 8.

Arriving in India a week before the September 17 general elections in Israel, Netanyahu is expected to endorse Modi government’s scrapping of articles 370 and 35 A in Kashmir as an internal matter and support the bilateral resolution of issues between India and Pakistan, the diplomats said.

Although the two allies typically play down the defence content of the across-the-spectrum relationship, India plans to order two PHALCON AWACS mounted on Russian A-50 platform (worth $ 2 billion) for better control of the war theatre .

The order is awaiting a green signal from the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS).

While India has five AWACS platforms, Pakistan already has seven such with another three on order from China. Islamabad already has three SAAB Erieye and four ZDK-03 from China, which were deployed 24X7 after the Balakot air strike by the Indian Air Force on a terrorist facility in Pakistan. Given this differential, IAF deployed AWACS for only 12 hours a day.

The IAF is also looking towards the acquisition of extended range Derby air to air missiles from Israel after Pakistan used 70 km AIM-120 C 100 kilometre beyond visual range missiles against Indian jets in its February 27 retaliation to the Balakot strike.

IAF wants to integrate the 70 kilometre range Derby missiles on the Su-30 MKI platform with upgraded radar equipped with data link to take the fight to Pakistani F-16s in future.

India and Israel are jointly developing the short, medium and long range surface to air missiles in collaboration with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

PM Modi meets Trump, says 'all issues between India-Pakistan are bilateral'

Prime Minister Modi met US President Donald Trump on the sidelines of the G7 summit in Biarritz, France. PM Modi said that India and Pakistan will resolve all bilateral issues on their own, while Trump said that PM Modi has the Kashmir situation.

Apart from the defence agenda, PM Modi is looking towards his Israeli counterpart to provide high-end technologies to provide potable water to each home as well as manage waste. Israel has mastered the technology to convert sea water into potable water with desalination projects in Ashkelon and Hadera through reverse osmosis.

Both countries are already collaborating the fields of start-ups as well as agricultural technologies focused on irrigation and productivity.

2 AWACS, air-to-air missiles on agenda for Netanyahu visit

 

[Prashant12]

After Balakot show, government to have more desi eyes in the sky

NEW DELHI: Impressed with the performance of home-developed early warning aircraft during the Balakot air strikes earlier this year, the government is set to speed up the indigenous programme with the acquisition of two larger platforms that will give wider radar and surveillance coverage.

The ‘eye in the sky’ project — an aircraft-mounted radar that can look deep into enemy territory and direct combat assets for a strike — is set to get a boost with the defence ministry likely to clear next week the acquisition of two Airbus A330 platforms that will be modified by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

India currently operates the domestically developed ‘Netra’ airborne early warning and control aircraft, two of which were used during the Balakot strikes. The Netra aircraft were used to safely guide Mirage 2000 fighter jets into Pakistani airspace to drop smart bombs that targeted the terror training camp at Balakot.

However, subsequent operations and the stand-off with Pakistan that lasted several weeks brought out the severe shortage of such aerial platforms that can be used to detect incoming enemy aircraft from well within Indian airspace. India currently operates two of the Netra aircraft and three IL76 ‘Phalcon’ systems that were jointly developed with Israel and Russia.

Officials said the air force has been unimpressed with the loitering time of the Phalcons. Though the aircraft have a wider range of coverage than the Netra, it is unable to stay airborne long enough to meet operational requirements.

Pakistan has six of the Saab 2000 early warning aircraft that were extensively used in the February 27 aerial battle to direct and control 25 fighter jets toward Indian targets. The active participation of these aircraft in the air skirmish gave Pakistan an extensive view of the battlefield and Indian air deployment that enabled it to direct fighters to the target zone. Indian early warning aircraft were outnumbered by the Pakistani air force.

The strategic programme to develop next-generation airborne warning and control systems (AWACS) that will act as a major force multiplier for the air force was cleared in 2015 for an estimated Rs 5,200 crore but orders have not yet been placed for the platform. As reported by ET, DRDO requires a wide-bodied aircraft for the AWACS and the only response DRDO got to a tender for the project was from Airbus for A330.

DRDO will oversee structural modifications and adaptations for a 10m rotodome that will be mounted on the aircraft. The system will have an electronically scanned array radar that will give 360 degree radar coverage. The air force estimates that the two indigenous AWACS will be inducted into service by 2025 and will be a major force multiplier over the coming years.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...desi-eyes-in-the-sky/articleshow/72177176.cms

 

[abingdonboy]

These absolute fking clowns. DRDO screaming for GOI to place order for the first of the airframes and what do they do? Give a DAC clearance for that only. They were saying it’s awaiting CCS sanction and now it’s only got DAC approval?

Absolute traitors. Never seen there been this many obstacles when army is ordering junk T90s or IAF mi-17s by the 100s

 

[samsaptaka]

These absolute fking clowns. DRDO screaming for GOI to place order for the first of the airframes and what do they do? Give a DAC clearance for that only. They were saying it’s awaiting CCS sanction and now it’s only got DAC approval?

Absolute traitors. Never seen there been this many obstacles when army is ordering junk T90s or IAF mi-17s by the 100s

Yeah ! Despite porkis outgunning us in this area, still no seriousness. Makes u feel so powerless...

 

[Longewala]

These absolute fking clowns. DRDO screaming for GOI to place order for the first of the airframes and what do they do? Give a DAC clearance for that only. They were saying it’s awaiting CCS sanction and now it’s only got DAC approval?

Absolute traitors. Never seen there been this many obstacles when army is ordering junk T90s or IAF mi-17s by the 100s

Apologies for my ignorance but what's the difference in practical terms?

 

[abingdonboy]

Apologies for my ignorance but what's the difference in practical terms?

Between what?


..............

 

[Longewala]

Between what?


..............

Dac approval and ccs..
Or are you referring to the number of aircraft approved?

 

[abingdonboy]

Dac approval and ccs..
Or are you referring to the number of aircraft approved?

So until now it was reported the CCS sanction was what was holding up the ordering of the 330s.

now they give only DAC sanction.

DAC sanction is basically the first step in procuring an item and is not binding, now the file will move through MOD then to other ministries and hopefully end up at CCS but in a LONG distant future. CCS is the apex security decision making body of India, after CCS approval deals are usually signed within weeks.

plenty of deals get DAC approval and are never signed, 2024 is the deadline (when DRDO wants to deliver first AWACS (INDIA) they need the planes for 1 year - 18 months for outfitting and testing. With a usual delivery timelines for defence major equipment being 36 months from contract signature it now seems impossible to meet this 2024 deadline and you can bet your bottom dollar that as the deadline looms presstitues will start calling the project delayed and another DRDO failure when the reality is without the plane there’s almost nothing more DRDO can do from their end.


Best case scenario the 330s are ordered in 2021 now, the first AWACS (India) has no chance of bei handed over by the 2024 deadline through absolutely no fault of DRDO. And as this is a flagship cutting edge project of enormous complexity it’s highly likely a few issues will emerge here and there during the integration and testing/validation phases which will themselves add time.

GOI setting DRDO up for failure as is usual.

 

[Longewala]

So until now it was reported the CCS sanction was what was holding up the ordering of the 330s.

now they give only DAC sanction.

DAC sanction is basically the first step in procuring an item and is not binding, now the file will move through MOD then to other ministries and hopefully end up at CCS but in a LONG distant future. CCS is the apex security decision making body of India, after CCS approval deals are usually signed within weeks.

plenty of deals get DAC approval and are never signed, 2024 is the deadline (when DRDO wants to deliver first AWACS (INDIA) they need the planes for 1 year - 18 months for outfitting and testing. With a usual delivery timelines for defence major equipment being 36 months from contract signature it now seems impossible to meet this 2024 deadline and you can bet your bottom dollar that as the deadline looms presstitues will start calling the project delayed and another DRDO failure when the reality is without the plane there’s almost nothing more DRDO can do from their end.


Best case scenario the 330s are ordered in 2021 now, the first AWACS (India) has no chance of bei handed over by the 2024 deadline through absolutely no fault of DRDO. And as this is a flagship cutting edge project of enormous complexity it’s highly likely a few issues will emerge here and there during the integration and testing/validation phases which will themselves add time.

GOI setting DRDO up for failure as is usual.

Thanks for that really patient explanation,. And yes, sucks really.
Basically we are going best part of the decade without these critical force multipliers coming in.

 

[janme]

I think there was news some days back(not sure how credible it was) that IAF has agreed to induct more NETRA style AWACS instead of waiting for Phalcon one's for the time being.

 

[Wisemarko]

I think there was news some days back(not sure how credible it was) that IAF has agreed to induct more NETRA style AWACS instead of waiting for Phalcon one's for the time being.

That would be the right way to go forward. Any AWACS is better than none.

 

[asianobserve]

As I have been saying Boeing 737 Wedgetail is a perfect for for IAF AWACS needs since the IN already operates B737-based P-8. Inducting B737-based Wedgetail would simplify logistics.

 

[abingdonboy]

As I have been saying Boeing 737 Wedgetail is a perfect for for IAF AWACS needs since the IN already operates B737-based P-8. Inducting B737-based Wedgetail would simplify logistics.

Logistics aren’t as big deal as you may think.


These are all off the shelf commercial products and both airbus and Boeing have huge presence in India through supply chains and support programs- both are even setting up training and MRO centres in India.


Logistics was/is a challenge for these niche (mostly ) Russian origin specialised hardware (like A-50/IL-76/8) where you had 0 global presence and almost no localised supply/support or even training. For a long time when USSR/Russia-India ties were the only game in town these logistics issues were a huge bane but today with a more open market and the emergence of PBLs for most major procurements there’s almost nothing to be concerned of on this side.



So as for the selection of the platform I will defer to the EXPERTS. There’s a reason DRDO wants a wide body. 737 anyway is far too small for the 360* panel DRDO has designed- there’s a reason it only has wedgetail/flat panel arrays thus far ie slightly more scaled up arrays seen on the Netra.

 

[abhay rajput]

As I have been saying Boeing 737 Wedgetail is a perfect for for IAF AWACS needs since the IN already operates B737-based P-8. Inducting B737-based Wedgetail would simplify logistics.

Airbus is better.. even American airlines are ordering from Airbus instead of Boeing ..

 

[asianobserve]

Airbus is better.. even American airlines are ordering from Airbus instead of Boeing ..

Well a lot of European carriers are also ordeing from Boeing. So what does that proves? Boeing has a mature AWACS line and this is important.

 

[abhay rajput]

Well a lot of European carriers are also ordeing from Boeing. So what does that proves? Boeing has a mature AWACS line and this is important.

No I am talking about only a specific model max , . Boeing plane is older, while Airbus is far more newer .

 

[asianobserve]

No I am talking about only a specific model max , . Boeing plane is older, while Airbus is far more newer .

We are talking about Boeing Wedgetail AWACS which like P8i is based on B737NG. Buying Wedgetail will offer commonality with IN's P8i as far as airframe, engines, etc. are concerned.

 

[asianobserve]

Logistics aren’t as big deal as you may think.


These are all off the shelf commercial products and both airbus and Boeing have huge presence in India through supply chains and support programs- both are even setting up training and MRO centres in India.


Logistics was/is a challenge for these niche (mostly ) Russian origin specialised hardware (like A-50/IL-76/8) where you had 0 global presence and almost no localised supply/support or even training. For a long time when USSR/Russia-India ties were the only game in town these logistics issues were a huge bane but today with a more open market and the emergence of PBLs for most major procurements there’s almost nothing to be concerned of on this side.



So as for the selection of the platform I will defer to the EXPERTS. There’s a reason DRDO wants a wide body. 737 anyway is far too small for the 360* panel DRDO has designed- there’s a reason it only has wedgetail/flat panel arrays thus far ie slightly more scaled up arrays seen on the Netra.

If the radar is from Russia then it's going to be the size of a football field. So I agree it will not fit in a B737 body. But note that USN's advanced Hawkeye AWACS has a rotating AESA and PESA radars, covering both low frequency to X bands, combination that fits into the smaller Hawkeye airframe. As a matter of fact the Advanced Hawkeye is deemed the most advanced AWACS currently in service. Japan just bought 2 for its air force.


And this is Boeing's Wedgetail...

 

[abhay rajput]

If the radar is from Russia then it's going to be the size of a football field. So I agree it will not fit in a B737 body. But note that USN's advanced Hawkeye AWACS has a rotating AESA and PESA radars, covering both low frequency to X bands, combination that fits into the smaller Hawkeye airframe. As a matter of fact the Advanced Hawkeye is deemed the most advanced AWACS currently in service. Japan just bought 2 for its air force.


And this is Boeing's Wedgetail...

We only need platform instead of radar.. Airbus won both tender for awacs and air refueler for a reason .. secondly radars is not from Russia it' will be from DRDO .