DRDO Phalcon style AWACS

[Aaj ka hero]

The major reason for this is the way procurements are done today, which force open tenders for every weapon purchase. Therefore, today it is possible that we may go for a new tank in FRCV despite having a fleet of Arjun and T90 already, a new fighter in MMRCA 2 despite having ordered Rafales already, and a new submarine in P75I despite having ordered Scorpenes already. G2G deals without doing an open tender would reduce the procurement time and lead to more standardization, though it will potentially increase corruption. Its a tradeoff. Pakistan has gone for the former way, we have gone for the latter.

I think that depends on IAF guys and IA guys they have to see standardization as well as full and efficient utilization of every resources.
What we can do now?
Frenchies will not help in engine development but are saying that they will win mmrca-2 because of standardization problem.
I think ORCA is good slap on their face, they can't give technology then we will get it in pieces from the world.
I don’t really like this mmrca-2 procurement nothing tangible we are getting from any of the participants.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

I think that depends on IAF guys and IA guys they have to see standardization as well as full and efficient utilization of every resources.
What we can do now?
Frenchies will not help in engine development but are saying that they will win mmrca-2 because of standardization problem.
I think ORCA is good slap on their face, they can't give technology then we will get it in pieces from the world.
I don’t really like this mmrca-2 procurement nothing tangible we are getting from any of the participants.

Even I think that the MMRCA deal will be scrapped in favour of ORCA and a further order of 36 Rafales will be placed to keep the French happy and to keep operational costs down.

 

[Aaj ka hero]

Even I think that the MMRCA deal will be scrapped in favour of ORCA and a further order of 36 Rafales will be placed to keep the French happy and to keep operational costs down.

I don’t believe in extra orders for rafale or micheal untill unless India don't get help on engine issue or elsewhere,yes they will say UN help they will give and this is what French are doing.
WE need to call this UN security council bluff man.
It's irritating.
Can you imagine French saying no engine help but UN help!!!! Both are equally important.
And what is cost of that?
Buy more rafale.... we must concentrate on our weapons development and use EACH AND EVERY deal of more than billion dollars for a favor in UN security council.
And invest real money on our own weapons development that's what this government is trying to do.
Russia I think right now is the only country where we can get UN help (without any losing money on weapons purchase without any tangible benefits) because they too are in pinch by investing or helping them to balance out China, that's why one billion dollars grant to Russia.
It's good start but no follow up.

 

[Defcon 1]

I think that depends on IAF guys and IA guys they have to see standardization as well as full and efficient utilization of every resources.
What we can do now?
Frenchies will not help in engine development but are saying that they will win mmrca-2 because of standardization problem.
I think ORCA is good slap on their face, they can't give technology then we will get it in pieces from the world.
I don’t really like this mmrca-2 procurement nothing tangible we are getting from any of the participants.

Oh I forgot to add one more thing in my previous post. The standardization problem will be solved to some extent through CDS. For example, the creation of air defence command will ensure that IA, IAF and IN don't buy different AD assets which fall in same category. So expect no more SPYDER procurements going forward since we already have Akash.

To be fair to the French, they, along with the Russians are more open in TOT compared to nations like UK and US. Dhruv is a successful product today only because the french saved it with the Shakti engine.
Its not their fault if we can't leverage the TOT deals properly. There was a chance to save Kaveri using offsets from the Rafale deal but DRDO rejected the french offer.

 

[Wisemarko]

Pakistan has better wepaon standardisation than us.

I think Pakistan has better integration as well. For instance: the Indian AWACS lack datalink communication with SU-30/ MIG fleet, that means what Phalcon sees has to be transmitted to the ground control. The ground control then radios the information to these fighter jets! Meanwhile, PAF F-16 have Link-16 connectivity with Erieye. That means whatever Erieye operator can see is seen by F-16 pilot in real time. The difference is night and day.

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

Pakistan has better wepaon standardisation than us. They stick to one platform and put it to maximum efficiency in the military machine.
While we are Jack of all trade master of none.
Diversity is good but at this point we should consider a bit about standardization.

They know what are the requirements and what can be ordered and what can be bought.

But here we want everything and take too much time dont want to pay either.

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[AmoghaVarsha]

I think Pakistan has better integration as well. For instance: the Indian AWACS lack datalink communication with SU-30/ MIG fleet, that means what Phalcon sees has to be transmitted to the ground control. The ground control then radios the information to these fighter jets! Meanwhile, PAF F-16 have Link-16 connectivity with Erieye. That means whatever Erieye operator can see is seen by F-16 pilot in real time. The difference is night and day.

Because most of their weapons are NATO standard.

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[Wisemarko]

Because most of their weapons are NATO standard.

One reason yes. The major reason is sheer ineptitude of Indian defense planners.

Look at the A330 AWACS plan. No other country has purchased A330 based AWACS including the countries that build A330! This means development will be a long process with certifications delays and plenty of teething problems. Is there an absolute need to do this? No. But Airbus is known to bribe officials all over the world.

When Phalcon was chosen, IL-76 was not even in production! Old unfinished airframes from Kazakhstan were refurbished and completed to mount Raytheon built radome and Israeli radar. IAI had offered G550 and B767 instead but arrogant or corrupt Indian decision makers ignored the offer.

That decision to use IL-76 led to cost overruns and delays of 4 years. But the worse part is that the availability of Phalcon is subpar. This is due to IL-76 maintainability issues. It is a gas guzzler aircraft with high cost to operate.

Meanwhile, Pakistan purchased 4 Erieye for $186 million each plus support, training totaling around $1 billion. They used SAAB 2000 aircraft that are cheap and efficient. On time and within budget. They followed up with newer Erieye recently.

One can discuss multiple such thoughtless efforts of Indian defense officials that have deeply damaged Indian defense industry and preparations despite spending significantly more money than Pakistan. Subpar Mirage upgrade, harried Rafale purchase, leasing old Soviet nuclear submarines for $15 million a month, not making LCA program a priority.... list can go on.

Coming back to AWACS,
India already has EMB-145 based 3 functional AWACS and all that needs to be done is induct more E-145 based platforms with updated engines and power supply. Embraer should pay penalty for bribes in the past.

Yet, now there’s a talk of using C-295 for this work. Again, no other country including the manufacturer (Spain) has used this platform for AWACS! With slow speed and low ceiling, C-295 is probably not a good choice anyway.

There’s a saying: A bird in hand is better than two in bush. Hopefully, someday someone in Indian defense planning will decipher the meaning.

PS: Not going to argue about 360 vs 240 degree scan abilities. That is an issue only for keyboard warriors and corrupt officials who need to justify a purchase. It’s nice to have but not a must have ability.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

What happened to $800 million deal with Israel for 2 Phalcon AWACS systems. It was reported in the media in January last year.

 

[Atcjurvin]

What happened to $800 million deal with Israel for 2 Phalcon AWACS systems. It was reported in the media in January last year.

Got stuck due to the price negotiations with Russia for platform.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

Got stuck due to the price negotiations with Russia for platform.

SAD SAD SAD SAD SAD state of affairs

 

[IndianHawk]

SAD SAD SAD SAD SAD state of affairs

It's what happens when you depend on foreign imports. Prices are jacked up at every opportunity.

India will need many more AWACS and many more transporter and refuelers. It's time to pool all these requirements together and start building a transport plane locally. Meanwhile order more netras at least 10.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

It's what happens when you depend on foreign imports. Prices are jacked up at every opportunity.

India will need many more AWACS and many more transporter and refuelers. It's time to pool all these requirements together and start building a transport plane locally. Meanwhile order more netras at least 10.

Indeed, if we can design a fighter jet, it should not be much difficult to design a small/medium transport aircraft. Intially, get the engines sourced from the Europeans or Russians. This transport aircraft should serve the role of being troop transport, AWACS, aerial refueler.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

HAL and Ilyushin JV was to co-operate in building the Il-214/Il-276 aircraft. But sadly HAL opted out of the development due to disagreements with Russia.
This aircraft would have been perfect for the multiple roles like troop transport, aerial refueler, AWACS.

 

[IndianHawk]

HAL and Ilyushin JV was to co-operate in building the Il-214/Il-276 aircraft. But sadly HAL opted out of the development due to disagreements with Russia.
This aircraft would have been perfect for the multiple roles like troop transport, aerial refueler, AWACS.
View attachment 41530

Russian just wanted finance not actual work share. Anyway developing such a plane is well within Indian capacity. I'm hoping with Saras and rta 70 development they will move forward for a transporter. Business case is there already.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

Russian just wanted finance not actual work share. Anyway developing such a plane is well within Indian capacity. I'm hoping with Saras and rta 70 development they will move forward for a transporter. Business case is there already.

We should look to designing and developing a medium transport aircraft. As I have said before, engines can be sourced from anywhere.

 

[samsaptaka]

This AWACS acquisition is indeed fucktardery at its finest ! Babu's, mod, IAF all utterly clueless ... meanwhile porkies are outgunning us in this area and yet we don't show any sense of urgency. Someone needs to light a fire under the asses of the people responsible for this shit !

 

[Neptune]

HAL and Ilyushin JV was to co-operate in building the Il-214/Il-276 aircraft. But sadly HAL opted out of the development due to disagreements with Russia.
This aircraft would have been perfect for the multiple roles like troop transport, aerial refueler, AWACS.
View attachment 41530

It would also be cheaper and more maintenance friendly in the long run as it would be a unified platform. Parts would be more readily available and interchangeable, it would be much easier to train maintenance crews on a single platform then on 4 or 5.

Besides AWACS, aerial refueling and transport, this aircraft could also be a maritime patrol/search and rescue, anti submarine, reconnaissance and electric warfare platform. That is 7 different roles it can fill due to its unique design and size. Unfortunately India dropped the ball, the baureocrats in India are notorious for dragging their feet. As a whole the entire Indian armed forces are equipped with too many platforms, which is a maintenance and training headache. To make matters worse India operates and integrates platforms from at least 6 different countries. Of course nothing works like it’s supposed, that really showed in February where the situational was chaotic.


It’s also already flying:

 

[asianobserve]

It will take Boeing 7 years or in 2026 to fully deliver to RAF all 6 Wedgetails it ordered in March 22, 2019.

 

[Wisemarko]

It will take Boeing 7 years or in 2026 to fully deliver to RAF all 6 Wedgetails it ordered in March 22, 2019.

The way things are going, 2026 will be the first delivery not the last. Marshall will complete modifications of airframes by 2026. Only 3 of the airframes will be new ones. Other ones are used 737NG.
Interestingly, UK chose Wedgetail over A330+Erieye offer.