DRDO Phalcon style AWACS

[asianobserve]

At the heart of E-2D is the new AN/APY-9 radar that can detect, track and target even the most advanced 5th gen LO fighters. I can only assume that Lockheed, which is the contractor of AN/APY-9 has extensively tested it against 2 of the World's most advanced 5th gen fighters, F-22 and F-35, both LM products.

 

[Aaj ka hero]

At the heart of E-2D is the new AN/APY-9 radar that can detect, track and target even the most advanced 5th gen LO fighters. I can only assume that Lockheed, which is the contractor of AN/APY-9 has extensively tested it against 2 of the World's most advanced 5th gen fighters, F-22 and F-35, both LM products.

I hope you compare that radar performance with india phalcon il-76.
Then only we can get real picture.

 

[IndianHawk]

I hope you compare that radar performance with india phalcon il-76.
Then only we can get real picture.

Lockheed Martin are pretty good at marketing bullshit. Take their word with pinch of salt.

About AWACS unless someone is implementing gan aesa modules they aren't going to be much better than phalcon AWACS.



Sent from my C103 using Tapatalk

 

[abingdonboy]

Are @Armand2REP ji I am asking how much hours it can remain in air at a certain speed or at its average speed.

This is a bit of a complicated question as it depends on a number of
Factors but I’d say a conservative endurance time for the 330 is at least 10 hours- before 787 the 330-200 had the record for longest endurance flight at over 11 hours.

You don't need to have a huge airframe to house modern radars for awacs. The bigger the airframe the bigger the engine requirement. And the bigger the engine the more fuel and logistics it needs. Just survey commercial airline companies on operational costs between twin aisle and single aisle airflcrafts.

Anyway, the most advanced awacs right now is E-2D Advanced Hawkeye that can track up to 2,000 targets but it is a compact package.

In fact it's so advanced that the French have no problem buying it in 2026-2028 time frame.

https://www.navyrecognition.com/ind...ure-e-2d-advanced-hawkeyes-for-2026-2028.html

Who says the E2D is the most advanced? It’s adcanced for what it is- a carrier borne AWACS but it’s not the most advanced in the market nor most capable- if it was then more land based users would
Be buying it.

E2D is very good for what it does but it doesn’t even come into this discussion.

Very good point about the power component. Even the Boeing E-7 platform and the E-767 AWACS operated by the Japanese face huge problems with available electric power due to using only a 2-engine platform vs the older 707 based 4-engine platform. Each engine can support only 2 electric generators and civilian airframes have limited ability to host additional aux generators beyond the built in APU. On a small business jet or regional jet platform this problem is even more pronounced as your mention.

To add to that, the big reason why both DRDO and IAF have shied away from adding additional ERJ-based Netra platforms to the fleet (despite the sunk cost of development) is because Embraer was accused of bribing various officials to get their aircraft selected. Further orders become politically untenable.

That last point is an issue but even if it wasn’t I’m
Not sure if the IAF would be all that inclined to
More Netras anyway having already committed to 6+8 AWACS (India) as a minimum. They always wanted Phalcon class AWACS and took the Netra as an interim option.

 

[Wisemarko]

You are clearly oblivious to facts on this matter.

Compare the combined output of the engines on a small biz jet and those on a wide body airliner like the 330. And since radar ranger is proportional to power you can infer the consequences.

In fact it was reported some time back that the power generation capability onboard even the 330 would not be enough so Airbus would be working with DRDO to instal an additional engine (I guess an another APU?) solely to power the radar.

Keep pushing the ERJ but it doesn’t have the range, endurance, payload capacity or power generation to deliver what the IAF want some.

Really? So now you know the power generation capacity of P600 vs A330? Please enlighten us with the numbers.
(Hint- it’s not the engine but power/weight ratio that matters- hence small G550 has more power available than 767 and 330. Also matters is onboard electric systems using batteries like 787 or engine bleed like 330 to function).
330 is a poor choice.

 

[Wisemarko]

Not sure what your beef with A330 is...but the idea is to have a 'radome' on top with 360 degree coverage. ERJ cannot carry the weight of such a large radome...instead Erieye, Netra etc provide only 240 degree coverage!

Please explain the advantages of having one A330 with radome and huge radar footprint vs 2 smaller, cheaper 240 degree AWACS costing same. A330 is not used by any country for AWACS- poor engine power/weight radio, expensive to buy and fly, large radar footprint etc. Radars, ELINT have become less power hungry, potent and smaller. No need for backward thinking which DRDO does all the time.

Every other country has moved to smaller platforms (737, G550, P600) for a reason which I am not going to explain as that is a disclosed knowledge.

 

[Wisemarko]

Are @Armand2REP ji I am asking how much hours it can remain in air at a certain speed or at its average speed.

Ask the right person ... For R-99 (ERJ based) 11 hours is maximum patrol duration during wartime. For routine patrol it is 8-9 hours. A330 is not used as AWACS but 10-12 hours is expected. Anything more means crew fatigue unless entire replacement crew is also onboard. https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/emb-145.htm

 

[abingdonboy]

Ask the right person ... For R-99 (ERJ based) 11 hours is maximum patrol duration during wartime. For routine patrol it is 8-9 hours. A330 is not used as AWACS but 10-12 hours is expected. Anything more means crew fatigue unless entire replacement crew is also onboard. https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/emb-145.htm

A330 can easily have 2-3 relief crews for flight crews and systems operators.

Really? So now you know the power generation capacity of P600 vs A330? Please enlighten us with the numbers.
(Hint- it’s not the engine but power/weight ratio that matters- hence small G550 has more power available than 767 and 330. Also matters is onboard electric systems using batteries like 787 or engine bleed like 330 to function).
330 is a poor choice.

The AWACS (India) platform HAD to be a wide body, of the available options A330 was the best option.

You are just going around in circles now trying to discredit the choice of experts.

 

[Enquirer]

Please explain the advantages of having one A330 with radome and huge radar footprint vs 2 smaller, cheaper 240 degree AWACS costing same. A330 is not used by any country for AWACS- poor engine power/weight radio, expensive to buy and fly, large radar footprint etc. Radars, ELINT have become less power hungry, potent and smaller. No need for backward thinking which DRDO does all the time.

Every other country has moved to smaller platforms (737, G550, P600) for a reason which I am not going to explain as that is a disclosed knowledge.

Firstly AWACS are not ground radars that you can put two radars at 90 degrees to each other so that the gaps in one radar is covered by the other! AWACS flies parallel to the border. In the configuration that you're suggesting (to get 360 coverage), one netra will fly parallel to the border while the second one will fly perpendicular to the border (effectively flying in and out of the enemy airspace). That sounds ridiculous!

Secondly, Embraer is a 'regional' jet whose flight endurance is very short! Which means for every few hours of flying the jet will have to land, refuel and take off - leaving several hours of gap (or be buddied with a refuler aircraft)! Even with refueling, Netra cannot function for too long as the the crew capacity is small and cannot accommodate multiple crew-shifts. Too many landings and take offs also reduces the life of the aricraft. A330 on the other hand has 3-4 times the flight endurance & can carry several shifts of the crew at the same time.

Thirdly, IAF/DRDO is seeking to club the role of aeriel refuler and AWACS into the same aircraft (which automatically saves 50% cost!). There's an A330-MRTT variant that acts as an aerial refueler.

Radars might have become more efficient in their power use. Yet the relation between power and range has remained unchanged. An efficient version of a radar will still provide higher range when higher power is made available (by the way of packing more TR modules or packing higher powered TR modules)!

 

[Wisemarko]

A330 can easily have 2-3 relief crews for flight crews and systems operators.

The AWACS (India) platform HAD to be a wide body, of the available options A330 was the best option.

You are just going around in circles now trying to discredit the choice of experts.

2-3 relief crews for A330 and
how many relief crews can G550 or EMB have? Do you know? Or just guessing one more time?

Who said Indian platforms have to be wide body? The agent who gave fat dinner and change to your DRDO officials or so called “experts”? Dig deeper with more facts and you will not be very happy...

 

[abingdonboy]

2-3 relief crews for A330 and
how many relief crews can G550 or EMB have? Do you know? Or just guessing one more time?

Who said Indian platforms have to be wide body? The agent who gave fat dinner and change to your DRDO officials or so called “experts”? Dig deeper with more facts and you will not be very happy...

Have you seen the size of the antenna that DRDO has created? Everything is predicated on THAT- no other factor has more importance.

Try getting that on a biz jet genius. That’s why I said it had to be wide body not to mention the power/endurance requirements. Why didn’t the IAF pick a Learjet for mounting the EL/M-2090?


No matter how many times you say it, a ERJ/Gulfstram is NOT going to be considered as it isn’t in anyway a viable option.

 

[Wisemarko]

Firstly AWACS are not ground radars that you can put two radars at 90 degrees to each other so that the gaps in one radar is covered by the other! AWACS flies parallel to the border. In the configuration that you're suggesting (to get 360 coverage), one netra will fly parallel to the border while the second one will fly perpendicular to the border (effectively flying in and out of the enemy airspace). That sounds ridiculous!


Secondly, Embraer is a 'regional' jet whose flight endurance is very short! Which means for every few hours of flying the jet will have to land, refuel and take off - leaving several hours of gap (or be buddied with a refuler aircraft)! Even with refueling, Netra cannot function for too long as the the crew capacity is small and cannot accommodate multiple crew-shifts. Too many landings and take offs also reduces the life of the aricraft. A330 on the other hand has 3-4 times the flight endurance & can carry several shifts of the crew at the same time.

Thirdly, IAF/DRDO is seeking to club the role of aeriel refuler and AWACS into the same aircraft (which automatically saves 50% cost!). There's an A330-MRTT variant that acts as an aerial refueler.

Radars might have become more efficient in their power use. Yet the relation between power and range has remained unchanged. An efficient version of a radar will still provide higher range when higher power is made available (by the way of packing more TR modules or packing higher powered TR modules)!

Have you seen the size of the antenna that DRDO has created? Everything is predicated on THAT- no other factor has more importance.

Try getting that on a biz jet genius. That’s why I said it had to be wide body not to mention the power/endurance requirements. Why didn’t the IAF pick a Learjet for mounting the EL/M-2090?


No matter how many times you say it, a ERJ/Gulfstram is NOT going to be considered as it isn’t in anyway a viable option.

More unsubstantiated nonsense... yes,
What power endurance? Are you saying G550/P-600 have less power for systems than A330? Wrong.
Are you saying G550/P-600 have less endurance than A330 for AWACS role? Wrong.

DRDO antenna for Nethra fits just fine on ERJ. Alpha technology has already made T/R modules with gallium nitride and that provides immense power with low cooling and electricity needs. There is no need for big, expensive Airbus. Airbus and their Indian agents are giving kickbacks to take A330 and in process ruining Nethra based decade of development.

Do you think this A330 will be flying this decade? It’s radome is not even tested- takes 2-3 years for additional certifications. Dig deep into why they are not making 3-4 more Nethra based AWACS..
Don’t need to tell me...

 

[Enquirer]

More unsubstantiated nonsense... yes,
What power endurance? Are you saying G550/P-600 have less power for systems than A330? Wrong.
Are you saying G550/P-600 have less endurance than A330 for AWACS role? Wrong.

DRDO antenna for Nethra fits just fine on ERJ. Alpha technology has already made T/R modules with gallium nitride and that provides immense power with low cooling and electricity needs. There is no need for big, expensive Airbus. Airbus and their Indian agents are giving kickbacks to take A330 and in process ruining Nethra based decade of development.

Do you think this A330 will be flying this decade? It’s radome is not even tested- takes 2-3 years for additional certifications. Dig deep into why they are not making 3-4 more Nethra based AWACS..
Don’t need to tell me...

The problem with diligently trying to answer what appears to be genuine questions/curiosity is that sometimes they turn out to be just a bait from a jerk who revels in his own ignorance!

This whackjob did not even understand how an A330-MRTT will double as an 'aerial refueler' and an long endurance AWACS!
Which idiot would love to spend the limited budget on two separate fleets of aircraft when they can be clubbed into one - only the idiots who append a 'wise' to their names in a desperate attempt to hide their idiocy.

 

[Wisemarko]

The problem with diligently trying to answer what appears to be genuine questions/curiosity is that sometimes they turn out to be just a bait from a jerk who revels in his own ignorance!

This whackjob did not even understand how an A330-MRTT will double as an 'aerial refueler' and an long endurance AWACS!
Which idiot would love to spend the limited budget on two separate fleets of aircraft when they can be clubbed into one - only the idiots who append a 'wise' to their names in a desperate attempt to hide their idiocy.

An AWACS doubling as refueling aircraft? Have you ever been in to an AWACS or a refueler? Lol.. And trying to call me names!

 

[Enquirer]

An AWACS doubling as refueling aircraft? Have you ever been in to an AWACS or a refueler? Lol.. And trying to call me names!

I never sat in a rocket to go into outer space.....so, I would know nothing about space & rocketry? Is that your argument? Then in this entire world only few dozen folks (astronauts) would know anything about outer space??

You have absolutely no idea about the science involving defense systems nor do you know anything about defense ops. You're just BSing on this forum with a misnomer!

If you know of any logical, scientific, operational reason why AWACS cannot function as a refueler then by all means express it, otherwise I suggest you come clean and change your Id to DumbMarko!!

 

[Wisemarko]

I never sat in a rocket to go into outer space.....so, I would know nothing about space & rocketry? Is that your argument? Then in this entire world only few dozen folks (astronauts) would know anything about outer space??

You have absolutely no idea about the science involving defense systems nor do you know anything about defense ops. You're just BSing on this forum with a misnomer!

If you know of any logical, scientific, operational reason why AWACS cannot function as a refueler then by all means express it, otherwise I suggest you come clean and change your Id to DumbMarko!!

Hahaha.. ok. More nonsense. Zero facts/data or numbers. AWACS are never operated as refueler except in your wet dreams.

1. MRTT are not designed as AWACS for a reason.
2. Every user of MRTT is buying dedicated AWACS on smaller platforms for a reason. (Wedgetail for UK and Australia, GlobalEye for UAE and new SAAB-2000 for Saudis).
3. There are too many customizations in an AWACS and no space for fuel tanks, hose or drogue systems.

Stop responding now and learn how these systems work first. There is no need to bring your bruised ego here- as you don’t have level of access that some of the people have here.
PS: I do know enough so get over beating the dead horse. I will not respond to you anymore.

 

[Enquirer]

Hahaha.. ok. More nonsense. Zero facts/data or numbers. AWACS are never operated as refueler except in your wet dreams.

1. MRTT are not designed as AWACS for a reason.
2. Every user of MRTT is buying dedicated AWACS on smaller platforms for a reason. (Wedgetail for UK and Australia, GlobalEye for UAE and new SAAB-2000 for Saudis).
3. There are too many customizations in an AWACS and no space for fuel tanks, hose or drogue systems.

Stop responding now and learn how these systems work first. There is no need to bring your bruised ego here- as you don’t have level of access that some of the people have here.
PS: I do know enough so get over beating the dead horse. I will not respond to you anymore.

Why does this forum allow morons like you?

Which idiot told you that refuelers carry fuel tanks in the fuselage of the aircraft?? Refueler (like A330 -MRTT) carry fuel as any regular wide body aircraft (within the wings), they just have hoses/drogues fitted on. Their entire fuselage can even carry 300+ troops!

Also, just because someone has big budget to have dedicated AWACS & Refuelers doesn't mean everyone should follow that pattern.

For an idiot like you who normally jerks off and thinks all his resultant hallucinations are facts, here's something you should read one you've time from jerking off!

https://www.business-standard.com/a...air-refuelling-capability-117113000584_1.html

 

[Archer]

DRDO has a much larger 360 degree antenna for the new AWACS India program, it will not be using the Balance Beam one on the ERJ.
Excess space on the Airbus 330 will be used for fuel.
Extra generators will be put to power the radar and mission avionics.

More unsubstantiated nonsense... yes,
What power endurance? Are you saying G550/P-600 have less power for systems than A330? Wrong.
Are you saying G550/P-600 have less endurance than A330 for AWACS role? Wrong.

DRDO antenna for Nethra fits just fine on ERJ. Alpha technology has already made T/R modules with gallium nitride and that provides immense power with low cooling and electricity needs. There is no need for big, expensive Airbus. Airbus and their Indian agents are giving kickbacks to take A330 and in process ruining Nethra based decade of development.

Do you think this A330 will be flying this decade? It’s radome is not even tested- takes 2-3 years for additional certifications. Dig deep into why they are not making 3-4 more Nethra based AWACS..
Don’t need to tell me...

 

[sathya]

More unsubstantiated nonsense... yes,
What power endurance? Are you saying G550/P-600 have less power for systems than A330? Wrong.
Are you saying G550/P-600 have less endurance than A330 for AWACS role? Wrong.

DRDO antenna for Nethra fits just fine on ERJ. Alpha technology has already made T/R modules with gallium nitride and that provides immense power with low cooling and electricity needs. There is no need for big, expensive Airbus. Airbus and their Indian agents are giving kickbacks to take A330 and in process ruining Nethra based decade of development.

Do you think this A330 will be flying this decade? It’s radome is not even tested- takes 2-3 years for additional certifications. Dig deep into why they are not making 3-4 more Nethra based AWACS..
Don’t need to tell me...

Having this doubt since long time..
Why Emb Netra order is not repeated.
Since Airbus based AWACS is no where in the sight. At least good 8 years away.

IAF is desperately trying to have more, they even got the 3 Rd Netra from DRDO hands.

 

[sathya]

Hahaha.. ok. More nonsense. Zero facts/data or numbers. AWACS are never operated as refueler except in your wet dreams.

1. MRTT are not designed as AWACS for a reason.
2. Every user of MRTT is buying dedicated AWACS on smaller platforms for a reason. (Wedgetail for UK and Australia, GlobalEye for UAE and new SAAB-2000 for Saudis).
3. There are too many customizations in an AWACS and no space for fuel tanks, hose or drogue systems.

Stop responding now and learn how these systems work first. There is no need to bring your bruised ego here- as you don’t have level of access that some of the people have here.
PS: I do know enough so get over beating the dead horse. I will not respond to you anymore.

I have read a pilots opinion that MRTT will use the fuel for itself and its escorts for long endurance.

Generally he felt combining tanker with AWACS is not a good idea.

Can you give us reason why MRTT is a bad choice?
And I think there is going to be some Customization as well.

If u feel u have hint of why Netra is not reordered, please let us know as well.