DRDO Multical Rifle Unveiled

rishivashista13

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Media reports (ironically, even that from DRDO) on range are based on max. effective range using iron sights.
Vz.58 (reportedly) has range of 800m because it's sights allow adjustments up to that range.

We can easily achieve a point target range of ~600m with our current ammunition.

MCIWS/ INSAS etc have less (reported) effective range because our iron sight metering is kept only up to 500m/400m. I would think good iron sights with adjustments up to 700m should do the trick.

I would also like to bring back the charging handle to the side; I was watching a video where shooters preferred the side charger on SCARs/AKs because it allows the weapon to be cocked without the need to bring the it down (i.e. while keeping it aimed).
Yes , cocking handle like AK can be more helpful .
It is simple to make , not require any extra space on gun , you can aim while cocking .

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Blood+

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Media reports (ironically, even that from DRDO) on range are based on max. effective range using iron sights.
Vz.58 (reportedly) has range of 800m because it's sights allow adjustments up to that range.

We can easily achieve a point target range of ~600m with our current ammunition.

MCIWS/ INSAS etc have less (reported) effective range because our iron sight metering is kept only up to 500m/400m. I would think good iron sights with adjustments up to 700m should do the trick.

I would also like to bring back the charging handle to the side; I was watching a video where shooters preferred the side charger on SCARs/AKs because it allows the weapon to be cocked without the need to bring the it down (i.e. while keeping it aimed).
What's the point having iron sights marked for 500+ meters when a normal person with perfect 6/6 vision can not even clearly see a human sized target beyond that range, let alone tagging him at such range and that too under combat conditions??!!Why waste your ammunition on such long range point targets when the job can be more easily and more effective done with a GPMG??That's the very reason why every infantry platoon is usually accompanied by at least two (sometimes more) GMPG sections, so that they can suppress the enemy at longer distances, make them keep their heads down and then clobber the bloody shit outta them with mortar!!That's the Indian Army way to do the job!!

Personally, I'm surprised by the Army's decision of going with the 6.8 Remington SPC instead of the 6.5 Lapua Grendel!!The later is miles ahead of the former in terms of both range and terminal ballistics............and flight trajectory too!!
 

kr9

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What's the point having iron sights marked for 500+ meters when a normal person with perfect 6/6 vision can not even clearly see a human sized target beyond that range, let alone tagging him at such range and that too under combat conditions??!!Why waste your ammunition on such long range point targets when the job can be more easily and more effective done with a GPMG??That's the very reason why every infantry platoon is usually accompanied by at least two (sometimes more) GMPG sections, so that they can suppress the enemy at longer distances, make them keep their heads down and then clobber the bloody shit outta them with mortar!!That's the Indian Army way to do the job!!

Personally, I'm surprised by the Army's decision of going with the 6.8 Remington SPC instead of the 6.5 Lapua Grendel!!The later is miles ahead of the former in terms of both range and terminal ballistics............and flight trajectory too!!
Why 500+ sights??:---
So that the soldiers believe that they "can" fairly shoot at such ranges if they need to;
And that they are not pinned down without a DMR / GPMG if things go wrong. Sometimes the little things go a long way in boosting confidence / morale. Even if they do not use it.
That's my opinion.

PS:-- Many countries practice shots at such ranges as basic training. And some are almost completely equipped with optics that allow accurate fire at long ranges. A smart enemy will always choose a battlefield that will exploit our weakness. It is prudent to at least match them, if we cannot exceed them.
 

Blood+

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Why 500+ sights??:---
Yes, why??
So that the soldiers believe that they "can" fairly shoot at such ranges if they need to;
That's a noble idea, only problem is, your average shooter can't even properly see a human sized target at beyond 450-500 meters without some sort of scopes/magnifiers, so what's the use of putting such iron sights??Instead, a more practical approach would be to make something like a Trijicon ACOG sight standard issue, if you must turn every rifleman into a marksman.But what you are suggesting would be nest to useless and also, a rather wasteful practise in terms of ammunition expenditure.
And that they are not pinned down without a DMR / GPMG if things go wrong. Sometimes the little things go a long way in boosting confidence / morale. Even if they do not use it.
That's my opinion.
Well, unfortunately, your opinion is wrong, the real world is not COD my friend.What you are suggesting would do nothing to boost morale, in fact, if practised, it might even affect the troops' morale in a rather adverse manner i fear, because at such ranges they wouldn't be able to reliably hit their targets, not without some sort of scopes and might end up believing that their weapons being ineffective!!
And besides, even for argument's sake we are to believe that you can tag the enemies at and beyond 500-600 meters at a consistent basis, what good it would do??Just look at the choice of ammo!!None of the three rounds, namely M 43,5.56 NATO and 6.8 Remington SPC - none of them are much effective beyond 450 - 500 meters and even that might be an overstatement!!This is the exact reason why I've persistently made the remark both here and in P.D.F that going for the 6.8 SPC was a very bad idea when you have the choice of the 6.5 Grendel, which remains supersonic beyond 1000 meters, even when fired through a relatively shorter length barrel!!
PS:-- Many countries practice shots at such ranges as basic training.
I'm aware of that, thank you.For instance,the USMC trains its marines to hit targets at upto 500 yards, because that's the maximum effective range of their M 885 cartridges.In our case, it's 400 meters (about 435 yards), which is again quite optimum because beyond that point, the SS 109 rounds becomes pretty much ineffective.
And some are almost completely equipped with optics that allow accurate fire at long ranges.
Yes, and till you can achieve something like that, it's pretty much pointless to try and do what you are suggesting.
A smart enemy will always choose a battlefield that will exploit our weakness. It is prudent to at least match them, if we cannot exceed them.
Unfortunately, you can't match an enemy in terms of raw stopping power, let alone exceed him, who is equipped with a standard issue rifle that can fire a round packing more than twice as much kinetic energy compared to what you have!!It's simple physics.

PS - I hope you wouldn't mind if I ask you a rather personal question.Have you ever fired a rifle in a shooting range??
 

kr9

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PS - I hope you wouldn't mind if I ask you a rather personal question.Have you ever fired a rifle in a shooting range??
No.............................................................................
 

Blood+

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No.............................................................................
I see, only if you had, you could have realised what point I was trying to raise.For an average shooter, it is chalenging enough to tag a human sized target at and beyond 400 meters unassisted, even in a rested condition and stress free environment, I can't even imagine what it would be like in the middle of a firefight when you are being shot at, you are all sweaty, your heart is pounding against your chest and you can't stop your hands from shaking due to the adrenaline surge, rushing through your veins and arteries!!No wonder most firefights take place within 300-350 meters.
 

kr9

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Just look at the choice of ammo!!None of the three rounds, namely M 43,5.56 NATO and 6.8 Remington SPC - none of them are much effective beyond 450 - 500 meters and even that might be an overstatement!!This is the exact reason why I've persistently made the remark both here and in P.D.F that going for the 6.8 SPC was a very bad idea when you have the choice of the 6.5 Grendel, which remains supersonic beyond 1000 meters, even when fired through a relatively shorter length barrel!!
That's a noble idea, only problem is, your average shooter can't even properly see a human sized target at beyond 450-500 meters without some sort of scopes/magnifiers, so what's the use of putting such iron sights??Instead, a more practical approach would be to make something like a Trijicon ACOG sight standard issue, if you must turn every rifleman into a marksman.But what you are suggesting would be nest to useless and also, a rather wasteful practise in terms of ammunition expenditure.
Then by the above logic, we do not need the long range performance of 6.8mm rounds if we are not going to fire beyond 500 meters..... or have the money to fire / equip scopes
:biggrin2:

Seems like both our suggestions are equally unnecessary without the other.
Why don't we both be happy with what DRDO are doing and believe that they know what is best.
:bounce:
 

Blood+

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Then by the above logic, we do not need the long range performance of 6.8mm rounds if we are not going to fire beyond 500 meters.....
You didn't get what I was saying.I wasn't saying that the long range performance is unnecessary, I said it would be pointless without having a decent scope.
or have the money to fire / equip scopes
:biggrin2:
Apparently,t hat's not the case anymore.
Seems like both our suggestions are equally unnecessary without the other.
Not really, only yours is.
Why don't we both be happy
You can be happy, that's your right.I ain't and that's mine!!
with what DRDO are doing and believe that they know what is best.
:bounce:
There is the problem!!I do not believe any random crap that comes out of DRDO or any other institution for that matter.And trust me, they do not know the best, because DRDO is not stuffed with shooters but a bunch of technocrats!!And also, because the decision of going with the 6.8 mm Remington SPC was that of the Army, not the DRDO.
And also, because of this
1-10.jpg

As we know, figures never lie!!

PS - Please stop using so many random smiles in your comments, it doesn't make you look cool, trust me.
 

Blood+

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I talk to army officer, he said with distance of 500 meters, they look into eyes of enemy, to judge their moves. That is the level of focus of our soldiers.
How??With a set of binoculars I presume (and even that might be a far-cry), because otherwise, it would be physically impossible to achieve a feat like that, unless of course, our army, by the virtue of some miracle experiment straight out of the Marvel Comics (or DC depending on your preference) , has found a way to fit hawk-eyes with variable magnifications, inside human eye sockets!!
 
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rishivashista13

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What I think is , MCIWS is the best firearm made in India ever , and one of the best firearm of the world .
Or best rifle of the world .

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kr9

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PS - Please stop using so many random smiles in your comments, it doesn't make you look cool, trust me
The function of the emoticon is to depict tone / temper of the written text and was used in that sense. It was unintentional if it triggered something in you.

they do not know the best, because DRDO is not stuffed with shooters
because the decision of going with the 6.8 mm Remington SPC was that of the Army, not the DRDO.
Are not the above 2 statements contradictory to each other. Doesn't the 2nd statement mean that it was the "shooters" who made the wrong choice instead of the "technocrats"?

Anyway, thanks for the chart.
 

Blood+

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What I think is , MCIWS is the best firearm made in India ever ,
True.
and one of the best firearm of the world .
That's too early to tell yet.
Or best rifle of the world .
Not really, neither it needs to be.Here is a free advice matey, sense of patriotism is a good thing to have till it gets the better of you!!Never let your sense of nationalism or patriotism get the better of you.
 
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Blood+

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The function of the emoticon is to depict tone / temper of the written text and was used in that sense. It was unintentional if it triggered something in you.
Ok, I take my statement back.And no, it didn't trigger anything, rest assured.


Are not the above 2 statements contradictory to each other. Doesn't the 2nd statement mean that it was the "shooters" who made the wrong choice instead of the "technocrats"?
Yes it is, if you take them out of context.My first statement was in reply to your notion and here i quote, "Why don't we both be happy with what DRDO are doing and believe that they know what is best". All I was trying to convey here, was that this statement doesn't really hold much water for the reason already mentioned, that they aren't the shooters.
And in any case, I never said anywhere that it was DRDO's (ARDE's to be exact) decision to go ahead with the 6.8 SPC, you just assumed I did!!
And yeah, the actual shooters did mess up, like they have done a hundred times before and will probably do in future as well.
Anyway, thanks for the chart.
You're welcome.
 

Kunal Biswas

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In Infantry squad / platoon every man has its role in an engagement ..

Rifleman -- 400ms
LMG -- 600ms
Sniper -- 800ms
51mm Motar -- 900ms

Almost all the engagement in WW2 to till date for an Infantrymen is within 300ms, Why one need rifleman for that long range when one has marksman for doing the same in much better way.

A marksman is meant for long range accurate fire, A Rifle man is meant to engage within 350ms at most in combat.


Why 500+ sights??:---So that the soldiers believe that they "can" fairly shoot at such ranges if they need to;.
I see, only if you had, you could have realised what point I was trying to raise.For an average shooter, it is chalenging enough to tag a human sized target at and beyond 400 meters unassisted,
 

Blood+

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In Infantry squad / platoon every man has its role in an engagement ..

Rifleman -- 400ms
LMG -- 600ms
Sniper -- 800ms
51mm Motar -- 900ms

Almost all the engagement in WW2 to till date for an Infantrymen is within 300ms, Why one need rifleman for that long range when one has marksman for doing the same in much better way.

A marksman is meant for long range accurate fire, A Rifle man is meant to engage within 350ms at most in combat.
Couldn't have agreed more with the part in bold.Although, I would have to say, that with the advent of rounds with high ballistic coefficient like the Grendel or later blocks of 5.56 NATO rounds, even a regular rifleman can act as a squad designated marksman in case one is not readily available, but for that every soldier would be needed to be equipped with ACOG type scopes.I still can't figure it out why the Army went ahead with the 6.8 SPC when the Grendel works so much better across the spectrum.In my opinion, the 123 grain loads would be ideal for regular issue, heard they cost almost the same as Mk 262 match grade 5.56 NATO rounds, which can be further brought down if licensed produced by the OFB, what's your view about this, sir??
 

Kunal Biswas

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1B1 are used as Marksman rifle where SVDs are not available or lack of 7.62x54r ammunition ..

The 6.8mm ( Rimless ) round produced in country is not the same 6.8 SPC in terms of weight or velocity, It is very different than foreign counterparts.

-----------------

New 5.56 INSAS ammunition that has been approved but not inducted by the army. Probably higher velocity and weight than the current 64 grain ammunition in use.

Source : http://164.100.47.134/lsscommittee/Defence/16_Defence_3.pdf

but for that every soldier would be needed to be equipped with ACOG type scopes.I still can't figure it out why the Army went ahead with the 6.8 SPC
 

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