DRDO 155mm Artillery Program

Can DRDO design Artillery able to pass into mass production?


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Hari Sud

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Barrel burst with 7 charges when designed for six is an over reaction. The gun is very light, made of Titanium hence instead of making 48 km with 7 charges makes 42km with 6 charges, it is still alright. This light gun very useful for LAC hence sending it back to the drawing board is a view of the arms merchants who wish this program be stopped in favour of their hardware. Moreover, it may be a storm in a tea cup and the whole issue may narrow down to a bad shell used in the gun. OFB has to be privatized fast.
 

Tuco

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Barrel burst with 7 charges when designed for six is an over reaction. The gun is very light, made of Titanium hence instead of making 48 km with 7 charges makes 42km with 6 charges, it is still alright. This light gun very useful for LAC hence sending it back to the drawing board is a view of the arms merchants who wish this program be stopped in favour of their hardware. Moreover, it may be a storm in a tea cup and the whole issue may narrow down to a bad shell used in the gun. OFB has to be privatized fast.
Its 18 tons?
 

aerokan

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Money burnt on faulty ammo could have bought us 100 new Howitzers, fumes Army
The Indian Army funds spent on dangerously faulty ammunition supplied by the state-owned Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) over the last six years would have been enough to purchase 100 medium artillery guns.


This staggering claim has been made in an internal Army report to the Ministry of Defence (MoD), excerpts of which have been accessed by India Today. Calculating the loss to the exchequer due to poor quality OFB ammunition to be Rs 960 crore between 2014 and 2020, the Army notes, “Rs 960 crore roughly means 100 155-mm medium artillery guns could have been bought for this amount.”


The OFB, administered by the MoD’s Department of Defence Production, is one of the world’s oldest government-controlled production organisations, and oversees a nationwide network of factories that manufactures ammunition and weaponry for the Indian armed forces.


The ammunition being criticised in the new Army report includes 23-mm air defence shells, artillery shells, 125-mm tank rounds and different calibres of bullets used in infantry assault rifles.


‘POOR QUALITY’ AMMUNITION


The Army report accessed by India Today highlights the ‘poor quality production’ at the OFB, quantifying the losses both in monetary resources as well as human life due to accidents caused by faulty ammunition.


“Lack of accountability and poor quality of production results in frequent accidents. This results in injuries and deaths of soldiers. On an average, one accident takes place per week,” says the report that has been shared with the MoD, including accident and casualty figures.


There have been 403 accidents related to faulty ammunition since 2014, though the numbers of accidents have steadily reduced. From 114 accidents in 2014, the number reduced to 53 by 2017, rose again to 78 in 2018, and dipped once again to just 16 in 2019. But the human casualty figures are far more disturbing.


Listed under the heading ‘Casualties due to OFB manufactured ammunition and armament’, the report notes 27 troops and others have been killed in faulty ammunition accidents since 2014, with 159 being seriously injured, including permanent disabilities and loss of limbs.


There have been 13 accidents so far in 2020, though none of them has resulted in a death.


Calculating Rs 960 crore as the monetary write-off as a result of faulty OFB ammunition since 2014, the Army report notes that Rs 658.58 crore worth was disposed of within the ammunition’s shelf life between April 2014 and April 2019, while 303.23 crore worth of mines were disposed of within their shelf life following a major ammunition depot fire in Pulgaon, Maharashtra in 2016.


‘MINI-OFB’ TYPE SUPPLIERS NEEDED


The Army’s exasperation with OFB supplied ammunition has simmered over decades, reaching a breaking point in the last two years, forcing an effort to approach the Indian private sector to meet ammunition needs. But as India Today reported earlier this month, the Army has pulled the plug on five of seven proposals that would have seen private firms step in to keep ammunition supplies running.


However, the effort to get private companies to become ‘mini-OFB’ type suppliers is desperately needed.


Earlier this month, the Army’s ‘ammunition-in-chief’, the Master General Ordnance (MGO) Lt Gen Upadhya said at an industry interaction, “OFB is in any case available to us. We want a parallel capacity to come up. It may not be at the scale of the OFB. But to start with, at least a parallel set up should come and various types of ammunition would then be available from the industry which can then settle down and in the times to come, a scaling up can take place.”


The Army has a difficult situation on its hands, and one that needs to be navigated tactfully. On the one hand, pushback against the OFB goes directly against the MoD itself, even though the latter has begun a process of modernisation of the OFB.


Just this month, the Ministry of Defence appointed a KPMG-led consortium to advise the government on how to lift the OFB out of its legacy socialist structures and to corporatise it. OFB unions at factories across the country have aggressively opposed the corporatisation drive.


On the other hand, the effort to include private sector firms has largely been one step forward and two back, with several companies — both big and small — expressing willingness to invest in capacity to produce and supply ammunition, but require a degree of clarity and assurance of orders, since they do not have the financial cushion and leeway enjoyed by state-owned concerns like the OFB.


What the numbers in the new Army report indicate is that things have come to a head. And with India’s forces massed on the border in a war-like situation that will almost definitely stretch into the foreseeable future, the Army hopes the glaring numbers will force a solution to its decades-old ammunition quality, shortage and assurance problems.
Don't the army have some funds to clear purchases of some small private players with many firms showing interest? Does army have to run to govt for purchase of even small pins? Is there no concept in army called limited autonomy of say automatic approval without needing govt approval for small purchases worth less than 100 crores or so? If there is zero autonomy, then it's really bad. If it's there upto some extent.. why isn't army doing something about it instead of crying over spilled milk?
 

ezsasa

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Don't the army have some funds to clear purchases of some small private players with many firms showing interest? Does army have to run to govt for purchase of even small pins? Is there no concept in army called limited autonomy of say automatic approval without needing govt approval for small purchases worth less than 100 crores or so? If there is zero autonomy, then it's really bad. If it's there upto some extent.. why isn't army doing something about it instead of crying over spilled milk?

Galwan Valley clash: Govt grants emergency financial powers ..

Read more at:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst
 

aerokan

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Galwan Valley clash: Govt grants emergency financial powers ..

Read more at:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst
This should be a regular feature rather than an emergency power. Give them limited autonomy to purchase upto a limit and if the procurement vendor is a desi provider.. they should get automatic approval within 30 days unless the deal is rejected by govt/MOD. Audits should be part of the approval process and the individuals should get fast track promotions based on the soundness of their decisions experimental or otherwise when the appraisal cycle comes in. It helps to bring out good leaders to the front.

In this case, army can fund a private 'mini-skunkworks' style division for private players take off and might even get some return discounts if it works.
 

Bhadra

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Indian Military has loads of foreign dalals... we can all see examples of ex army chutla and swinie...
pretty sure a hit job on indigenous devleopments
Why not say same thing about DRDO and OFB ?

Army is no where involved in a barrel bursting? No amount of trick can do that unless the round was loaded shell facing the chamber. Moreover, DRDO was carrying out trail.

Lots of nonsense being peddled around.

I say the foreign agents bribed DRDO and OFB to sabotage the project to force MoD to look for imports. Can you deny that... All OFB and DRDO are corrupt fudas... deny it...

And you are acting like a "jhalli Janaani",
 

Hari Sud

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Internal sabotage is a possibility. As Bhadra has said in his above post. This disease of Dalals is not leaving India and its military procurement business.
 

Dessert Storm

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Barrel burst with 7 charges when designed for six is an over reaction. The gun is very light, made of Titanium hence instead of making 48 km with 7 charges makes 42km with 6 charges, it is still alright. This light gun very useful for LAC hence sending it back to the drawing board is a view of the arms merchants who wish this program be stopped in favour of their hardware. Moreover, it may be a storm in a tea cup and the whole issue may narrow down to a bad shell used in the gun. OFB has to be privatized fast.
Maybe you are confusing ATAGS with Kalyani ULH. Or are you saying that even the ULH has had a barrel burst?
 

Shashank Nayak

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ATAGS was in news and that is what I meant.
ATAGS is heavier than other guns of its class. ATHOS weighs 13 tons.. Bharat 52 weighs 15 tons... And Bharat Forge said the barrel is made to withstand pressure from charge 7 ammunition
 

Flying Dagger

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ATAGS is heavier than other guns of its class. ATHOS weighs 13 tons.. Bharat 52 weighs 15 tons... And Bharat Forge said the barrel is made to withstand pressure from charge 7 ammunition
If we can increase the indigenous content to 100 with ATHOS should pay the license and TOT fee and build them here if final price is similar.

Bharat -52 /ULH should be asked to use the tot to reduce the weight and lmprove efficiency. They can build the rest needed.

If we wait for DRDO they will take another 4-5 years and then will come up with a 20 T ATAGS and army will reject it.
 

WolfPack86

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After setback, Induction set for next April of Indigenous ATAGS Guns
Until April, the Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) was well on track to be inducted into service as an indigenous solution to the artillery’s requirement of thousands of 155 millimetre (mm) guns. Sanctioned in September 2012, the ATAGS gun first fired in December 2016, taking just four years in development. In subsequent firing trials the ATAGS demonstrated it was a world-class gun, consistently exceeding the ranges the army demanded. The gun is unique in its ability to fire a five-round burst, while no other contemporary gun exceeds three-round bursts. This brings down a greater quantity of explosive onto the target before enemy soldiers can take cover. Before entering large-scale production, the ATAGS was readying for hot weather trials in the Pokhran Field Firing Ranges (PFFR) from 15th May to 15th June, followed by cold weather trials and mobility trials in Sikkim in January 2021. The Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) scientists in the ATAGS project were confident. The gun had already performed well in high altitude trials in January 2018 at the 12,000-foot-high Menla Firing Range in Sikkim, where night time temperatures drop to minus 16 degrees Centigrade. But their hopes of a smooth path into operational service for ATAGS were scuttled by two events. First, summer trials were called off because of the Covid-19 pandemic. Then, when the gun went for trials in September, a gun barrel burst while being fired. Now, after a detailed probe by a multi-agency Failure Investigation Committee, the gun has undergone changes and is ready to fire again. Business Standard was briefed on the ATAGS programme at the Armament R&D Establishment Pune. ATAGS Project Manager, Shailendra Gade, explained that the gun’s ability to achieve a world-record breaking range of 48 kilometres comes from a specially designed gun chamber that has a unique 25-litre capacity. In other contemporary 155 millimetre guns, chamber capacity is never more than 23 litres. As a consequence, other guns can use a maximum of six modules (measures) of propellant to hurl the projectile to the target. The ATAGS’ additional two-litre chamber capacity has space for a seventh propellant module. This hurls the projectile an additional distance. Looking at the ATAGS in the ARDE’s weapons bays is enough to discern that it is an unusually beefy artillery gun. Weighing in at 19-tonnes, it is a full two tonnes heavier than comparable 155 millimetre, 52 calibre Nexter and Elbit towed guns the artillery has evaluated. But the army has willingly accepted the reduced mobility that comes with greater weight. The additional propellant it fires requires a heavier barrel, breech and recoil system. The weight of the ATAGS has also risen because of its all-electric drive – another unique feature of the gun. This electrically powers 11 moving parts, such as the automatic ammunition loader. In other guns, these systems are operated through hydraulic systems, which are messy and unreliable, require hydraulic drives, oil tanks for hydraulic fluid and rubber gaskets that have to be changed frequently. Hydraulic systems also require more maintenance than electrical systems and are less sensitive. Electrical systems have added an estimated two tonnes to the weight of ATAGS because an extra actuator and motor is required for each of the 11 moving parts. The ATAGS’ stack of electrical batteries also adds to the weight of the gun. Another advantage of electrical systems is that the gun can fire without switching on the engines – essential for powering hydraulic systems. In the ATAGS the gun can fire in “silent mode”, with the batteries providing sufficient electrical power to fire the gun for an hour, without the engine running. The ATAGS is towed by the standard, in-service Ashok Leyland Stallion field artillery tractor (FAT). However, it can be decoupled from the gun, and then move for short distances powered by its on-board engine, built by Pune-based firm, Cummins. The ATAGS has a world-class, digital control and communications system. Each battery command post issues commands to the six guns it controls through state-of-the-art software defined radio (SDR). The command & control and communications systems have been developed by two DRDO laboratories: Defence Electronics Applications Laboratory (DEAL), Dehradun and Centre for Artificial Intelligence and Robotics, Bangalore (CAIR). There is significant “Make in India” prestige riding on the ATAGS. It has been displayed to the public during the Republic Day Parade. Numerous VIPs have witnessed it firing, including Nirmala Sitharaman, who travelled to Pokhran in September 2017, two weeks after taking over as defence minister. But, most importantly, the ATAGS has a major place in the army’s Field Artillery Rationalisation Plan, which envisages the acquisition of about 3,000 155 millimetre, 52-calibre guns. At least half of these are to be ATAGS.
 

sorcerer

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DRDO will begin trials of Made-in-India towed artillery in June but Army still has ‘concerns’

New Delhi:
Confirmatory desert trials of the indigenous Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS), being developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) along with private firms Bharat Forge and TATA Power SED, will begin in June.
Sources in the ATAGS development programme told ThePrint that after the summer trials this year, orders can be placed in the industry, following which the system will become operational in the armed forces.



Army’s concern and comparison

Defence sources said that the development of ATAGS has been completed and is presently under PSQR (Weapons procurement and qualitative requirements) trials to finalise the final configuration of the gun system.


However, the Army has a “few issues of concern”.


Sources said that the first among these is the aspect of extra weight, which may impact on the operational performance of the gun system in mountainous and high altitude terrain.
The ATAGS is said to weigh around 18 tonnes. In comparison, the ATHOS weigh less than 15 tonnes.


Those advocating for the ATAGS admit that the weight is an issue, but say that other systems like the Dhanush gun can be used in the mountains, besides the lightweight howitzers that were especially procured from the US for the mountains.


“Not all guns have to operate in the same way across all terrains. In tanks, we have the T-90 and T-72 which can operate easily in the mountains and can also be airlifted there. But we also have the Arjun, which cannot operate in the same way it would in desert areas,” a defence expert, who did not wish to be identified, said.


ATAGS programme sources said the self-propelled mobility of this system is high and it is capable of crossing all Indian bridges and terrain.


They also said that the in weight category it is comparable with other comparable gun systems in the world.


Defence sources said that second concern is the “inability of the gun” system to meet the critical performance parameters, especially with regard to rates of fire.


ATAGS programme sources said that the rate of fire includes the burst firing of five rounds in one minute, intense firing of 10 rounds in two-and-a-half minutes and a sustained rate of 60 rounds in sixty minutes.


In comparison, the Elbit Systems claims ATHOS can fire three rounds in 30 seconds, 12 rounds in three minutes, and 42 rounds in sixty minutes.


The third concern expressed is the September 2020 accident during the internal validation trials of the ATAGS in a firing range. The barrel of the gun burst while firing a round.


Incidentally the cost is also a factor. While the ATHOS will cost less than Rs 11 crore per piece, the ATAGS is said to be costing anywhere between Rs 16-18 crore.


One area where the ATAGS outguns other systems is the range. The ATAGS’s range with Extended Range Sub-Bore Boat Tail (ERFB BT) ammunition is 35 km and with ERFB BB (Base Bleed) ammunition is 45 km. The ATAGS has actually fired at a range of 47 KMS in 2017.


It is said that when the ATAGS will finally be ordered, both private firms will get orders, but the lowest bidder would get the largest share – 60 per cent or more.


Both guns – Bharat Forge and TATA – have the same performance parameters and the final contract will be awarded based on the cost cited.



 

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DRDO will begin trials of Made-in-India towed artillery in June but Army still has ‘concerns’

New Delhi:
Confirmatory desert trials of the indigenous Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS), being developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) along with private firms Bharat Forge and TATA Power SED, will begin in June.
Sources in the ATAGS development programme told ThePrint that after the summer trials this year, orders can be placed in the industry, following which the system will become operational in the armed forces.



Army’s concern and comparison

Defence sources said that the development of ATAGS has been completed and is presently under PSQR (Weapons procurement and qualitative requirements) trials to finalise the final configuration of the gun system.


However, the Army has a “few issues of concern”.


Sources said that the first among these is the aspect of extra weight, which may impact on the operational performance of the gun system in mountainous and high altitude terrain.
The ATAGS is said to weigh around 18 tonnes. In comparison, the ATHOS weigh less than 15 tonnes.


Those advocating for the ATAGS admit that the weight is an issue, but say that other systems like the Dhanush gun can be used in the mountains, besides the lightweight howitzers that were especially procured from the US for the mountains.


“Not all guns have to operate in the same way across all terrains. In tanks, we have the T-90 and T-72 which can operate easily in the mountains and can also be airlifted there. But we also have the Arjun, which cannot operate in the same way it would in desert areas,” a defence expert, who did not wish to be identified, said.


ATAGS programme sources said the self-propelled mobility of this system is high and it is capable of crossing all Indian bridges and terrain.


They also said that the in weight category it is comparable with other comparable gun systems in the world.


Defence sources said that second concern is the “inability of the gun” system to meet the critical performance parameters, especially with regard to rates of fire.


ATAGS programme sources said that the rate of fire includes the burst firing of five rounds in one minute, intense firing of 10 rounds in two-and-a-half minutes and a sustained rate of 60 rounds in sixty minutes.


In comparison, the Elbit Systems claims ATHOS can fire three rounds in 30 seconds, 12 rounds in three minutes, and 42 rounds in sixty minutes.


The third concern expressed is the September 2020 accident during the internal validation trials of the ATAGS in a firing range. The barrel of the gun burst while firing a round.


Incidentally the cost is also a factor. While the ATHOS will cost less than Rs 11 crore per piece, the ATAGS is said to be costing anywhere between Rs 16-18 crore.


One area where the ATAGS outguns other systems is the range. The ATAGS’s range with Extended Range Sub-Bore Boat Tail (ERFB BT) ammunition is 35 km and with ERFB BB (Base Bleed) ammunition is 45 km. The ATAGS has actually fired at a range of 47 KMS in 2017.


It is said that when the ATAGS will finally be ordered, both private firms will get orders, but the lowest bidder would get the largest share – 60 per cent or more.


Both guns – Bharat Forge and TATA – have the same performance parameters and the final contract will be awarded based on the cost cited.



Any idea of any report on the cause of the barrel burst of Atags last year..
 

jik60

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DRDO will begin trials of Made-in-India towed artillery in June but Army still has ‘concerns’

New Delhi:
Confirmatory desert trials of the indigenous Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS), being developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) along with private firms Bharat Forge and TATA Power SED, will begin in June.
Sources in the ATAGS development programme told ThePrint that after the summer trials this year, orders can be placed in the industry, following which the system will become operational in the armed forces.



Army’s concern and comparison

Defence sources said that the development of ATAGS has been completed and is presently under PSQR (Weapons procurement and qualitative requirements) trials to finalise the final configuration of the gun system.


However, the Army has a “few issues of concern”.


Sources said that the first among these is the aspect of extra weight, which may impact on the operational performance of the gun system in mountainous and high altitude terrain.
The ATAGS is said to weigh around 18 tonnes. In comparison, the ATHOS weigh less than 15 tonnes.


Those advocating for the ATAGS admit that the weight is an issue, but say that other systems like the Dhanush gun can be used in the mountains, besides the lightweight howitzers that were especially procured from the US for the mountains.


“Not all guns have to operate in the same way across all terrains. In tanks, we have the T-90 and T-72 which can operate easily in the mountains and can also be airlifted there. But we also have the Arjun, which cannot operate in the same way it would in desert areas,” a defence expert, who did not wish to be identified, said.


ATAGS programme sources said the self-propelled mobility of this system is high and it is capable of crossing all Indian bridges and terrain.


They also said that the in weight category it is comparable with other comparable gun systems in the world.


Defence sources said that second concern is the “inability of the gun” system to meet the critical performance parameters, especially with regard to rates of fire.


ATAGS programme sources said that the rate of fire includes the burst firing of five rounds in one minute, intense firing of 10 rounds in two-and-a-half minutes and a sustained rate of 60 rounds in sixty minutes.


In comparison, the Elbit Systems claims ATHOS can fire three rounds in 30 seconds, 12 rounds in three minutes, and 42 rounds in sixty minutes.


The third concern expressed is the September 2020 accident during the internal validation trials of the ATAGS in a firing range. The barrel of the gun burst while firing a round.


Incidentally the cost is also a factor. While the ATHOS will cost less than Rs 11 crore per piece, the ATAGS is said to be costing anywhere between Rs 16-18 crore.


One area where the ATAGS outguns other systems is the range. The ATAGS’s range with Extended Range Sub-Bore Boat Tail (ERFB BT) ammunition is 35 km and with ERFB BB (Base Bleed) ammunition is 45 km. The ATAGS has actually fired at a range of 47 KMS in 2017.


It is said that when the ATAGS will finally be ordered, both private firms will get orders, but the lowest bidder would get the largest share – 60 per cent or more.


Both guns – Bharat Forge and TATA – have the same performance parameters and the final contract will be awarded based on the cost cited.



Bhen K ❤ de, this cute Alex known for his many shenanigans in the past. Seems like Elbit has completely hired Print's trader for their backroom lobbying. As always all the imaginary concerns came out of some imaginary sources. I think this time somehow the Israelis would make their way to the home, MOD is probably buying their theory of splitting order.
 

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