Before I reply, you dint answer my question, do you agree or not that if any one group is over represented over others(which is why we have democracy in the first place)- it will be bad for everyone else?
@Mad Indian
Your point is that there is discrimination in institutions, and it can be corrected by having more people from OBC and SC/ST in all those institutions. And you feel that proportional reservations will help in achieving that.
Yes, that is the only viable "short term" solution.
But where do you stop? How many sub-divisions can you make? If you speak about discrimination, favouritism and nepotism, there are a variety of discriminations that are practiced.
We stop at the point where its impossible for any one to exploit anyone. Simple.
Reservation of 69% has been working well in TN. The 50% reservation in the central institutes is a step in the right direction though it will take atleast 25 years(the time it takes for the top levels of bureaucracy to have atleast some presence of the OBCs and SCs) from now for it to have the actual intended positive effect
A certain renowned IT company in Bangalore was known to have a lot of Tamil management, and they were known to recruit Tamilians, whenever possible. In one of my former companies, a lot of people on the sales staff were Malayalis, and they were known to recruit Malayalis whenever possible in the sales team. A lot of Kannadigas say, "Bangalore belongs to us, and we should recruit only Kannadigas, why allow outsiders to infest our city?" I know a person in Mumbai who made a comment once that he prefers "not to recruit Marathis" because they have "poor work ethic" and he wanted to recruit people from "North India" (UP/Bihar/etc.)
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Again, as I said, the private companies don't owe anything to the public to be egalitarian unlike how the govt institutions do. My private hospital can choose not to treat someone I dont like, but a govt hospital cant. If I am working in a private clinic AND a govt clinic at the same time, I can refuse treatment to someone in the private clinic(we do have right to choose our patients) while I am obligated to treat everyone in a govt clinic.
There is a company in Pune where I have a good SC friend (originally from UP). His SC father (from UP) told him over the phone one day, "Beta, you have reached a senior level where you are responsible for interviews and recruitment. Try to ensure that our people get in - don't recruit Brahmins." My SC friend chastised his father and reminded him that his manager and his manager's manager were both UP Brahmins, and told his father that "Pune is not your rural UP, caste shit doesn't work here, get out of all this, this is a meritocratic company, this is not like your railways job".
Again, this is what I said too- the changes come with urbanisation and growth in economy and maturation of society as a whole. It will take another 50 years to reach this level of maturity into everyone. So what should we do till then? Let the lower castes be screwed over by an all upper caste bureaucracy?
Going further, we speak of "OBCs" as an omnibus term. A Gowda HR manager in Bangalore may want to recruit other Gowdas, not a Jat or a Yadav (though they are all OBCs in the broader Indian perspective). Lets talk about Muslims: in my current company, the Bangalore office has around 60 employees (mainly sales and consulting guys). There is one Muslim among those 60 people. Going by "proportional representation", there should have been 12 Muslims.
Again, "private" enterprises. They dont owe a thing to the public. I would say the same thing about a Muslim enterprise recruiting only muslims. I said the same thing regarding the controversy in Kerala regarding the advertisement for hiring "Christains and Muslims only"
And yes, as
@jus pointed out, its actually Muslims and OBCs who are most screwed in the present day(atleast pre OBC reservation anyway). But atleast Muslims got their own reservation - Pakistan. Were the lower castes given anything similiar?
And regarding your point that OBC is a general term and that Gowdas might not employ another OBC like Naidu/Reddy/Rao , I agree. But again, the difference is that the community of Gowdas are at the same level of societal mobility as the community as that of the Reddy/Naidu/Rao etc,. So , if you look at their distribution in the govt offices, you will find their representation to be fairly proportionate of their popn. So, "even if" they do engage in such behavior, no caste comes out on top over the other because everyone is equally screwed/benefitted
I hope you get my point. Also, the whole point of this representation is to prevent any unfair injustice due to over representation.
For ex, the recent case of the Dalit girls gang rape case in SP , if the police were composed of Dalits, Yadavs , UCs, and other OBCs, then the police officers trying to save their Yadav brethren would not have happened.
Of course my company is an American MNC so reservation doesn't apply here, but I'm just telling you about the bewildering array of questions that will come up - the can of worms that you will open up by talking about proportional reservation. Will you give proportional representation and reservation on a linguistic basis? On a linguistic-caste basis? On a religious basis? Where does it end? Where do you stop?
I am not in favour of any "proportionate representation". I only brought it to bust the UC castist bigots' nonsense and their BS victimhood.
I am yet to see any victimhood moron to argue against my points. All they have done are play victimhood further and engage in ad hominems.
Remember that if you speak of proportional reservations, you have to include religious demographics and distribution too in your calculations. Is that acceptable to you?
Again, I am not in favor of proportionate reservation system. The present reservation is fine. It might need a few tweaks but fine nonetheless.
But, if the UC bigots are to play victims of reservation crap, then we should give heed to their cries and should adopt proportional reservation so that no upper caste is unfairly made to compete for mere 50% seats with the rest 100%. They should be given their own 15-20% as per their population
Regarding creamy layer: your logic about rank for medical seat is correct. If you ask me why FCs ask for creamy layer when it will hit them hardest, I don't know - all I can say for myself is, I want creamy layer implemented because it is the fair and right thing to do. For example, you are part of the creamy layer now, and your future son/daughter does not deserve reservations. If your daughter gets a rank of 200 in general, she has to go with whatever she gets with that rank. Because, if she eats up a radiology seat with an "OBC rank 50", she will deprive an OBC carpenter's daughter from getting that seat. That is not fair.
Let me assure you that the reason for the UC bigots' demand for "creamy layer" has nothing to do with altruism, just like their meritocratic crap has nothing to do with egalitarianism. Not everyone has your noble intentions. Seriously, if they were that noble to begin with, why do they oppose reservation and cry victimhood despite knowing how well they are represented in the govt already? Also, as I asked, the supposed prime "benefactors" of the "creamy layers" the non creamy layer OBCs and SCs are actually very much against the creamy layer. Why would they oppose it if they are to be the prime benefactors? Because they are not.
It was only when I interacted with a SC senior of mine did I fully understand how sinister this whole "creamy layer" crap is. Till then even I thought it was necessary and I supported it. Thank god the creamy layer nonsense does not apply to his communties yet, the people who need the maximum social mobility right now
@jus why do you think creamy layer is so important for our UC bigots?
And at the end of the day, if you look at it in the strictest economic sense,
@Singh is right that classical right-wing economics has no place for reservations. But I agree that complete classical RW economics is impossible anywhere, and certainly not in India.
I agree. So what? The politicians of India will take another 500yrs to bring in a true capitalist country. Should the lower castes be screwed over until then?
I wont need reservation for my caste in two cases-
1. Either I should not face any kind of discrimination whatsover , from whomever may be in the bureaucracy(impossible in the current state of the Indian society) or
2. Even if I face discrimination from the bureaucracy based on my caste, it should not impede my social/economic progress like starting a new business or a factory, because the discriminatory bureaucracy cant do jack shit about it(a truly right wing economy)
Socialism without reservation is actually nothing but neo-castism 2.0. Before independance , the society and the government decided what work everyone does and instituted caste system. Now that that has been destroyed, they want socialism and a govt in one community's control to enforce/control what others should do with their money(taxes), life, business(regulations and licenses)
How will socialism without reservation be anything other than caste discrimination 2.0?
We have reservations, which were introduced for a certain purpose. We cannot roll them back and have a "true RW economy". What we can and should do however, is to ensure that reservations don't end up giving unfair advantage to the same people's family, generation after generation. With the concept of creamy layer strictly implemented, more and more people will automatically get out of the ambit of reservations.
The reason for "reservations" is "social mobility". It is impossible to achieve it without giving reservations "generations" after "generations". You need to give reservation to a poor man's son to get a clerk position(note that in some cases, this alone will come under creamy layer) and you have to give reservation to a clerk's son to make him a district collector(.ie a low ranked IAS officer) and you have to give reservation to a district collector's son to make him into a secretary of some important ministy(.ie a high level IAS officer). Then may be, the "secretary's son" wont need reservation anymore. This is how reservation is supposed to function
@Energon You asked me one day about the "social mobility" and economic development. Here I have given a very small example of what I meant. I will explain in detail next time.
That will put a lid on this debate, for good.
The only way we are going to get rid of reservation is by removing caste system.. The only way to do it is by encouraging intercaste marriages with reservation or some other benefits for the intercaste married couples. We have to incentivise intercaste marriages in a way that future "arranged marriages" are intercaste marriages, unlike the present day where every marriage is same caste marriage.
Anyone who is actually egalitarian should be trying to end the source of reservation- caste discrimination. IMO, anyone who is claiming to be egalitarian for the purpose of removing obstacles for his own castes should be humiliated for the piece of garbage he actually is