DM: Forces repeatedly changing requirements for Indian weapons

[Ray]

Sir, apropos the last sentence, which I have highlighted, you just need to click the link in the post you just quoted.

Thanks.

It is from Broadsword?

 

[sgarg]

You can continue with your hypocritcal debates with yourself. I am not interested in arguing for argument's sake.

Wow! Who are you? You talk like you are the biggest achiever in the world! We take your word as gospel.

All you know is a little bit of English which you use to spit out your confused thoughts.

 

[Ray]

Ray Sir
Yes you did mention missile and it was not there but for the sake of argument we can operate Arjun without Missiles (Less deadly more vulnarable) but can T90 be operated without the AC Indian Army needed(On stand still easiest targets)?

In our nation there is a harmony between Defense and civil.

Defense Minister is worthy enuf to make the call at the time of need.

I have a query:
When CAG submitted the report it said there were different parameters set for T90 and Arjun in comparative trials.
The only question is why?
Why were they not tested under same parameters?
Why was there even a need to have different parameters?

As I understand, missiles are required since the stand off distance as per the operational requirement has come into existence.

All our tanks that have been used so far have been without AC. AC is indeed a help.

What is 'stand still easiest target'?

Haven't seen the CAG report. Any link?

 

[pmaitra]

I believe the discussion in this thread might be related to the discussion in another thread, which is: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/.../67108-how-long-take-india-surpass-china.html

 

[pmaitra]

Thanks.

It is from Broadsword?

Sir, you can verify the numbers from whatever source you prefer.

T-90 has higher ground pressure than Arjun Mark I, and this information has been out in the open in various fora for years.

 

[pmaitra]

Here are two comparisons:
http://s978.photobucket.com/user/atv_photo/media/arjun.jpg.html
http://worldofdefense.blogspot.com/2011/05/arjun-weight-ratio-compared-to-other.html

 

[ersakthivel]

Here are two comparisons:
ARJUN Vs Others Photo by atv_photo | Photobucket
World Of Defense: Arjun Weight Ratio Compared To Other Tanks

ordering more Arjun mk2 s with a hope of getting CLGM fitted as an upgrade with in a year is sure winner for IA.

They wont be disappointed like they did in trying to make T-90 operational in desert with an air conditioner(for which they are goading DRDO!!!)

The gun barrel tech , armor tech and the about to be introduced day and night commander's panaromic sight for T-90 have originated from Arjun program only.

SO there is no reason to delay additional Arjun mk2 order citing CLGM delay.

I once frequently used the words marvel comics in my debate with another (ex) technocrat here!!!
Surprised to see the same words used by manohar parrikar that too in the presence of ex Army chief!!!!
Anyway the tea vendor Modi has done what the great far sighted economist manmohan singh couldn't do!!!
namely put a IIT Eng as DM and let him have an independent hand free of commissions and bribes in defence procurement.

The man is blazing away in all his glory, using the words , that some of the specs requested in GSQR is right out of marvel comics in the presence of ex army chief!!!

he also said that he a tried and tested plan B for MMRCA in the form of Su-30 MIKi, when many defence analysts and airforce chief kept on saying that "there is no plan B"!!!

he has also reposed his faith in tejas and there were reports he was approaching the private sector guys for a second production line on tejas!!!

With in months of accepting the post he has cleared a slew of proposal with clear cut guidelines allowing the participation of indian private sector in defence and also cleared the much needed sub projects for the navy .

ALso while approving the next tranche of pliatus he has made it conditional on Swiss firm signing the maintenance TOT and made it pending the resolution of pricing issue, while quickly backing HTT-40 from HAL.
interesting times ahead.

 

[Ray]

Swiss will be in the bag for a quid pro quo on Black money?
.
After all the deal is BIG money.

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@pmaitra.

The current rolling stock cannot take the Arjun.

What is the answer.

Nor can the current tank transporters of the IA.

And then the bridges. The Rural Development Ministry has a map of the roads and details. Could you check that out for Rajasthan?

Thanks.

 

[Mad Indian]

Swiss will be in the bag for a quid pro quo on Black money?
.
After all the deal is BIG money.

*******************************************************


@pmaitra.

The current rolling stock cannot take the Arjun.

What is the answer.

Nor can the current tank transporters of the IA.

And then the bridges. The Rural Development Ministry has a map of the roads and details. Could you check that out for Rajasthan?

Thanks.

Actually @p2prada made a similiar point as to why Army preferred T90 over Arjun, .ie Arjun was under developed when it was actually needed in 2000 and by the time Arjun was already on par with T90 , T90 was already the tank of choice of the armed forces and changing the system would have required a massive overhaul of logistics network http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/defence-strategic-issues/44522-arjun-vs-t90-mbt-10.html.

But people smelling conspiracy theories will smell them everywhere. As I already said, these pseudo nationalists care more about their "indigenous weapons" ego over what the army actually wants. If only foreign goods are what armed forces want, then why do our armed forces give orders for indigenous goods like Brahmos? Could they not just order tomahawks and take heft bribes in the process and kill Brahmos? Could it be instead that the indigenous stuff which the armed forces procure is of good quality and so they consume it, and they only turn to foreign vendors when that is not the case?

 

[Mad Indian]

Wow! Who are you? You talk like you are the biggest achiever in the world! We take your word as gospel.

All you know is a little bit of English which you use to spit out your confused thoughts.

Still have not answered why army should not procure what it wants and should listen to pseudo nationalists. Anyway , DFI has become an echo chamber as evidenced in this thread. Live in you echo chamber echoing each other's BS.

 

[Ray]

I am all for buying the best for the operational imperatives.

Be it foreign, be it Indian.

Life it at stake and we don't want to hear, Kargil was won, but at what costs?

If the correct equipment was given, then the question would have been redundant.

It was won by a cost, but then the Army can fight with only what the Nation gave, and not what the Nation should have been given.

So, who is at fault?

Think that over.

 

[Manas7]

In other news.....

AgustaWestland chopper scam: Middleman Michel spent crores on air travel of senior IAF officials - IBNLive

 

[sgarg]

Prejudices of the past should not stop progress of the future. Lot of mistakes made. Lessons learnt. Time to move on.
Nehru made a mistake in creating a socialist utopia which quickly degenerated into a corrupt stagnant nation by 1990. India was lucky though, as it started looking for external capital, changes in technology started benefitting india. India has stumbled on a growth path. Time is to take it forward.

Best way is to look at how defence projects are managed in USA or Europe and imbibe their best practices here.

I have said multiple times that t90 is a good tank. T90 decision was OK. The objective is not questioning previous decisions but changes which ensure reliable and robust domestic capacity in the future.

 

[sgarg]

Army must take into account what is possible while drafting specs. You cannot create a tank specs as a superset of all known tanks and then give it to DRDO. Let DRDO develop prototypes based on certain key parameters given by the army. Give the same parameters to one or two private sector design houses. Let all of them build prototypes and then compete for mod orders.

 

[sgarg]

The Micky mouse competitions favoring foreign firms need to stop immediately. It is better to buy technology rather than products. China has the correct strategy - buy or steal technology, but manufacture locally.

 

[sgarg]

The key is competition. Creation of a monopoly is against the very concept of a democracy.

 

[pmaitra]

Swiss will be in the bag for a quid pro quo on Black money?
.
After all the deal is BIG money.

*******************************************************


@pmaitra.

The current rolling stock cannot take the Arjun.

What is the answer.

Nor can the current tank transporters of the IA.

And then the bridges. The Rural Development Ministry has a map of the roads and details. Could you check that out for Rajasthan?

Thanks.

Texmaco makes rolling stock that can take Arjun.

hope it is not reposted

Arjun tank on train >>

Details of Rail car >>

BFAT Wagons are fitted with transition type center buffer couplers along with side buffers. This enables the wagon to be coupled to other rolling stocks either with center buffer couplers or screw couplers. Chains with pockets for lashing of tanks on the Wagon are provided. Four numbers of loading end flaps are provided over side buffer at both ends to facilitate loading of MBTs. Lashing chains and track guides are provided for guiding the movement of the tanks during loading and unloading as well as Wedge stops for securing the MBTs during transportation.BFAT Wagons are specially designed for transportation of main battle tanks viz., Arjun, T-72 / T- 90 and BMP-II.The Underframe is a heavy welded flat structure fabricated with steel plate flooring. Underframe will have provision to accommodate center pivot pin for bogies, buffers and transitional coupling.Bogies are of 3 Axle fabricated welded type with cylindrical roller bearing and brake linkage. The suspension arrangement is with leaf spring interlinked with the three axles through fulcrum lever.BFAT Wagons are provided with dual Brake. Air brake system of single pipe graduated release type. Air brake cylinders, valves, reservoirs, piping etc. are mounted on the bottom side of the underframe. The wagons are also provided with a hand brake. Vacuum pipe is also provided for attachment with vacuum rolling stock.

Texmaco product PDF (look for BFAT wagon): http://www.texmaco.in/texmaco/file/Texmaco Rolling Stock.pdf

There are prime movers that can take 70 tons. I don't know whether India has those or not, but if it doesn't, they can be acquired any time.

Regarding bridges, we go back to my previous post. Either we get a light tank with more vulnerabilities, or a heavy tank with hich crew survivability. We can't have both in one machine.

 

[power_monger]

Texmaco makes rolling stock that can take Arjun.

There are prime movers that can take 70 tons. I don't know whether India has those or not, but if it doesn't, they can be acquired any time.

Regarding bridges, we go back to my previous post. Either we get a light tank with more vulnerabilities, or a heavy tank with hich crew survivability. We can't have both in one machine.

Sir,I see a pattern. Intially it starts with weight.When it is convinced that weight is no more a problem goal post moves on to other minor problems.

There are literally many advantages in Arjun compared to t-90 like it can fire without engine being on(without advocating the enemy powers to identify your location) and it has better chances of hitting target under move,better crew comforts and so on.List is almost double.yet we do not want to induct it and even inducted give it very low number of orders which is not viable economically.

And even shamefull incident is DRDO had to put a black box within Arjun to prove the attempts of sabotage. Several Arjun tanks received engine issue all of sudden.engine was a proven german company.Hence they put a blackbox to only realize that tanks were ran to more than desired speed in first gears.

Hopefully Parrikkar checks the import fetish of our army and guides them appropriatly.

 

[sayareakd]

I love to proven wrong, but Arjun will not get bulk order. May be token order, but no bulk order.

 

[Pulkit]

As I understand, missiles are required since the stand off distance as per the operational requirement has come into existence.

All our tanks that have been used so far have been without AC. AC is indeed a help.

What is 'stand still easiest target'?

Haven't seen the CAG report. Any link?

Regarding missiles : They are an add on to the tank not the soul of the tank.
Yes AC is indeed help. Did T90 have AC initially?What will be the weight of the tank after AC being installed?
Stand still =not in motion stationary target practice for army.

Sharing a news articles about CAG:
CAG blames Army for delay in Arjun tanks' induction