DM: Forces repeatedly changing requirements for Indian weapons

[pmaitra]

The Indian Army chose the T-90 as its MBT, which means, the Indian Army deemed it fit for use in the deserts of Rajasthan and plains of Punjab.

T-90 has more ground pressure than Arjun Mark I. So in conclusion, if T-90 can function in certain places along the Indo-Pak border, so can Arjun Mark I.

Pressure is not weight. Pressure is weight per unit area.

For those that need proof, here are the numbers, posted in the year 2012: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/defence-strategic-issues/44522-arjun-vs-t90-mbt-7.html#post624694

@Mad Indian, try not to barge into a thread and write your non-technical gibberish. You are student of science, so, do the right thing, and argue with numbers. If you cannot do that, then repeat to yourself your favourite strawman, that India is doing better than North Korea, and spare us your long winded posts with lots of verbiage and zero content.

P.S.: After adding AC in the T-90, the ground pressure probably went up even further.

 

[Mad Indian]

The Indian Army chose the T-90 as its MBT, which means, the Indian Army deemed it fit for use in the deserts of Rajasthan and plains of Punjab.

T-90 has more ground pressure than Arjun Mark I. So in conclusion, if T-90 can function in certain places along the Indo-Pak border, so can Arjun Mark I.

Pressure is not weight. Pressure is weight per unit area.

For those that need proof, here are the numbers, posted in the year 2012: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/defence-strategic-issues/44522-arjun-vs-t90-mbt-7.html#post624694

@Mad Indian, try not to barge into a thread and write your non-technical gibberish. You are student of science, so, do the right thing, and argue with numbers. If you cannot do that, then repeat to yourself your favourite strawman, that India is doing better than North Korea, and spare us your long winded posts with lots of verbiage and zero content.

P.S.: After adding AC in the T-90, the ground pressure probably went up even further.

You can continue with your hypocritcal debates with yourself. I am not interested in arguing for argument's sake.

 

[Pulkit]

CAG is just an audit and its job is only to see what is cheaper and not whether the equipment actually suits the need of Armed forces. Troll harder next time

That was not a troll friend stop acting like a child I am trying to have a serious conversation.
What has CAG said in the report.

CAG blames Army for delay in Arjun tanks' induction

And these are some facts :
A comparative trial between the Arjun and the imported Russian T-90 tanks was done in April 2010 by fixing different benchmarks.

Who set the bechmarks definately not CAG.

An order was placed for additional T-90 tanks in November 2007 even as Army kept on adding its requirements for the Arjun.
Now why you want to add requirements ? Who can add them?


The CAG, in its latest report said there were eight instances in which Arjun in the comparative trial was judged against more stringent benchmarks parameters. "We noticed, eight instances where the Army placed benchmark of parameters on Arjun which were more stringent in comparison to those placed on T-90 tanks"¦ the imposition of more stringent parameters precluded a level playing field".
What do you have to say on this?


FYI no one has challenged this till now and this was tabled and backed by todays defense minister.

I have tried and questioned without any false assumptions only based on one institute which is an authority in our nation.

 

[pmaitra]

You can continue with your hypocritcal debates with yourself. I am not interested in arguing for argument's sake.

I don't care whether you are interested in debating or not. What I do observe, is that after several posts with no content, the numbers are staring you in the face, and now you have no option but to shut up.

 

[Mad Indian]

That was not a troll friend stop acting like a child I am trying to have a serious conversation.
What has CAG said in the report.

CAG blames Army for delay in Arjun tanks' induction

And these are some facts :
A comparative trial between the Arjun and the imported Russian T-90 tanks was done in April 2010 by fixing different benchmarks.

Who set the bechmarks definately not CAG.

An order was placed for additional T-90 tanks in November 2007 even as Army kept on adding its requirements for the Arjun.
Now why you want to add requirements ? Who can add them?


The CAG, in its latest report said there were eight instances in which Arjun in the comparative trial was judged against more stringent benchmarks parameters. "We noticed, eight instances where the Army placed benchmark of parameters on Arjun which were more stringent in comparison to those placed on T-90 tanks"¦ the imposition of more stringent parameters precluded a level playing field".
What do you have to say on this?


FYI no one has challenged this till now and this was tabled and backed by todays defense minister.

I have tried and questioned without any false assumptions only based on one institute which is an authority in our nation.

May be. I have not followed the dedate on Arjun vs T90. May be you have a point there. I wont comment on it further as I dont have enough info on it.

But the usual assertions of LCA pawns Rafale is what gets me. I followed the debate on it very closely and the people who @p2prada called as the Arjun brigade made the same usual BS arguments. Now the DM is saying the same nonsense that we can get Su30 instead of Rafales. I was talking about the LCA, which the article mentions and about how its requirements were changed

 

[pmaitra]

An order was placed for additional T-90 tanks in November 2007 even as Army kept on adding its requirements for the Arjun.
Now why you want to add requirements ? Who can add them?

The T-90 did not satisfy the army. The army needed AC installed on the T-90s, yet, the purchase of T-90 went through. On the other hand, with Arjun, the purchases were delayed again and again, and no leniency was shown by the army, like it was shown for the T-90. The funny part is, the army had to ask DRDO to fix the AC on the T-90.

May be. I have not followed the dedate on Arjun vs T90. May be you have a point there. I wont comment on it further as I dont have enough info on it.

That's right. You don't have enough information. Now go and read every single post related to the Arjun and T-90 and then come back and debate.

 

[Mad Indian]

I don't care whether you are interested in debating or not. What I do observe, is that after several posts with no content, the numbers are staring you in the face, and now you have no option but to shut up.

Whatever. Pat yourself in the back. I am with armed forces on this one.

 

[pmaitra]

Whatever. Pat yourself in the back. I am with armed forces on this one.

The armed forces is divided. There are people within the armed forces who are with Arjun, and there are those that are against. Obviously you did not know this, since you have not bothered to read the relevant threads.

In other words, you don't know where you stand.

 

[Mad Indian]

The armed forces is divided. There are people within the armed forces who are with Arjun, and there are those that are against. Obviously you did not know this, since you have not bothered to read the relevant threads.

In other words, you don't know where you stand.

I know where I stand in LCA. I have no opinion on Arjun vs T90. I made it very clear.

And most people who support DRDO only support it for "indigenous" value and not for its worth. It is a dangerous mindset.

 

[Pulkit]

The Indian Army chose the T-90 as its MBT, which means, the Indian Army deemed it fit for use in the deserts of Rajasthan and plains of Punjab.

T-90 has more ground pressure than Arjun Mark I. So in conclusion, if T-90 can function in certain places along the Indo-Pak border, so can Arjun Mark I.

Pressure is not weight. Pressure is weight per unit area.

For those that need proof, here are the numbers, posted in the year 2012: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/defence-strategic-issues/44522-arjun-vs-t90-mbt-7.html#post624694

@Mad Indian, try not to barge into a thread and write your non-technical gibberish. You are student of science, so, do the right thing, and argue with numbers. If you cannot do that, then repeat to yourself your favourite strawman, that India is doing better than North Korea, and spare us your long winded posts with lots of verbiage and zero content.

P.S.: After adding AC in the T-90, the ground pressure probably went up even further.

The T-90 did not satisfy the army. The army needed AC installed on the T-90s, yet, the purchase of T-90 went through. On the other hand, with Arjun, the purchases were delayed again and again, and no leniency was shown by the army, like it was shown for the T-90. The funny part is, the army had to ask DRDO to fix the AC on the T-90.


That's right. You don't have enough information. Now go and read every single post related to the Arjun and T-90 and then come back and debate.

Yeah pmaitra I am aware of that just wanted MAD Indian to realise that himself he was not understanding our side of argument.
Thanks

 

[Pulkit]

May be. I have not followed the dedate on Arjun vs T90. May be you have a point there. I wont comment on it further as I dont have enough info on it.

But the usual assertions of LCA pawns Rafale is what gets me. I followed the debate on it very closely and the people who @p2prada called as the Arjun brigade made the same usual BS arguments. Now the DM is saying the same nonsense that we can get Su30 instead of Rafales. I was talking about the LCA, which the article mentions and about how its requirements were changed

I know where I stand in LCA. I have no opinion on Arjun vs T90. I made it very clear.

And most people who support DRDO only support it for "indigenous" value and not for its worth. It is a dangerous mindset.

Before I proceed to rebutt you on the issue of Tejas are you sure you have enough info on this?
About Arjun brigade or Tejas Fan boy I am also part of the same team. @p2prada had me on his ignore list as he never had answers to my question . He could not even proove his own statements .

You willing to go ahead we can have a debate on Tejas aswell.

 

[Mad Indian]

Before I proceed to rebutt you on the issue of Tejas are you sure you have enough info on this?
About Arjun brigade or Tejas Fan boy I am also part of the same team. @p2prada had me on his ignore list as he never had answers to my question . He could not even proove his own statements .

You willing to go ahead we can have a debate on Tejas aswell.

I am not interested in entering your echo chambers. @p2prada made very good arguments against LCAs. Most of your replies were full of strawmans and BS. But anyway, if you think LCAs equal Rafales, then you are welcome to live in your lala land

 

[Pulkit]

I am not interested in entering your echo chambers. @p2prada made very good arguments against LCAs. Most of your replies were full of strawmans and BS. But anyway, if you think LCAs equal Rafales, then you are welcome to live in your lala land

this shows ur ignorance ....
YOu and @p2prada just assume things.


So here again i say LCA does not equal Rafale.
They cannot be compared but
Rafale is not what India Needs ,Tejas in great numbers is required.



You are a spineless person atleast stick to your belief you are acting like a coward running away.

 

[Pulkit]

@pmaitra should hve allowed me to read it.
When these people have nothing to counter they go on this track.
I have decided not to hold back if such a situation arises even in future though I will never be the one starting it.

 

[pmaitra]

@pmaitra should hve allowed me to read it.
When these people have nothing to counter they go on this track.
I have decided not to hold back if such a situation arises even in future though I will never be the one starting it.

@Mad Indian is abusing. What will you gain by reading that? And who told you to decide to not hold back? Can you not report?

If I see an exchange of abuses, then both the parties are liable to suspension.

 

[Ray]

@Ray Sir most of us here are not from army background and many who are use the word classifed when any info is needed.
Internet is our only source and so as you quote open source .

I asked you the pressure exerted by both the tanks you simply quoted there weight and left it there .Please share the pressure as well .

Please please tell me the pressure exerted by both the tanks with a reliable source official .


I will also like to know if you think CAG and our Defense Minister are not capable enuf as in one of your earlier post you said they have no expertise /exp (Not exactly but similar to this).

It is not only ground pressure, I also mentioned missiles. There will be many more, but I am not privy to it beyond open sources.

CAG is absolutely essential so that Govt money is not wasted. But are they or our worthy Defence Minister experts in strategy and operational requirements? If they are, then they are the last word.

I remember an incident in my formative years in the Army. Jawans were allowed to use Govt vehicles to visit historical sites as per Govt rules. They visited Bittur. The Audit raised objections.

My CO answered that he was not responsible to teach Auditors Indian history.

In case anyone does not know of the importance of Bittur in Indian history, here it is:

Bithoor has been closely associated with the Indian independence movement, especially the Indian Rebellion of 1857. It was at one time home to many of the rebellion's most prominent characters including the Rani of Jhansi, Lakshmi Bai. During the British Raj, Bithur used to be part of Cawnpore district (now Kanpur) in the United Provinces. The last of the Peshwas, Baji Rao II, was banished to Bithur; his adopted son, Nana Sahib, made the town his headquarters. Bithur was captured by General Havelock on July 19, 1857. The town was laid waste by the British who razed Nana Sahib's palace and the temples in the town in retaliation for the brutal killing of over 300 British men, women and children who had been lured out of their defences at Cawnpore with a promise of truce during the Siege of Cawnpore.

 

[Ray]

The Indian Army chose the T-90 as its MBT, which means, the Indian Army deemed it fit for use in the deserts of Rajasthan and plains of Punjab.

T-90 has more ground pressure than Arjun Mark I. So in conclusion, if T-90 can function in certain places along the Indo-Pak border, so can Arjun Mark I.

Pressure is not weight. Pressure is weight per unit area.

For those that need proof, here are the numbers, posted in the year 2012: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/defence-strategic-issues/44522-arjun-vs-t90-mbt-7.html#post624694

@Mad Indian, try not to barge into a thread and write your non-technical gibberish. You are student of science, so, do the right thing, and argue with numbers. If you cannot do that, then repeat to yourself your favourite strawman, that India is doing better than North Korea, and spare us your long winded posts with lots of verbiage and zero content.

P.S.: After adding AC in the T-90, the ground pressure probably went up even further.

True all tanks can operate.

But we cannot have specialised tanks based on ground pressure, can we?

Have we the money for such extravagance?

And if you think we have, let us have it.

I have explained how greater width in tank tracks reduces ground pressure to reply to your wonderment as to why the GSQR was changed for more width.

Did you not see that?

T 90 has more ground pressure? Would love to know that since I am always open to being educated.

 

[Mad Indian]

@Mad Indian is abusing. What will you gain by reading that? And who told you to decide to not hold back? Can you not report?

If I see an exchange of abuses, then both the parties are liable to suspension.

He called me spineless first. I reported it. Why is it still standing? post #72

 

[pmaitra]

True all tanks can operate.

But we cannot have specialised tanks based on ground pressure, can we?

Have we the money for such extravagance?

And if you think we have, let us have it.

I have explained how greater width in tank tracks reduces ground pressure to reply to your wonderment as to why the GSQR was changed for more width.

Did you not see that?

T 90 has more ground pressure? Would love to know that since I am always open to being educated.

Sir, apropos the last sentence, which I have highlighted, you just need to click the link in the post you just quoted.

 

[Pulkit]

It is not only ground pressure, I also mentioned missiles. There will be many more, but I am not privy to it beyond open sources.

CAG is absolutely essential so that Govt money is not wasted. But are they or our worthy Defence Minister experts in strategy and operational requirements? If they are, then they are the last word.

I remember an incident in my formative years in the Army. Jawans were allowed to use Govt vehicles to visit historical sites as per Govt rules. They visited Bittur. The Audit raised objections.

My CO answered that he was not responsible to teach Auditors Indian history.

In case anyone does not know of the importance of Bittur in Indian history, here it is:

Ray Sir
Yes you did mention missile and it was not there but for the sake of argument we can operate Arjun without Missiles (Less deadly more vulnarable) but can T90 be operated without the AC Indian Army needed(On stand still easiest targets)?

In our nation there is a harmony between Defense and civil.

Defense Minister is worthy enuf to make the call at the time of need.

I have a query:
When CAG submitted the report it said there were different parameters set for T90 and Arjun in comparative trials.
The only question is why?
Why were they not tested under same parameters?
Why was there even a need to have different parameters?