DM: Forces repeatedly changing requirements for Indian weapons

[Pulkit]

I am all for buying the best for the operational imperatives.

Be it foreign, be it Indian.

Life it at stake and we don't want to hear, Kargil was won, but at what costs?

If the correct equipment was given, then the question would have been redundant.

It was won by a cost, but then the Army can fight with only what the Nation gave, and not what the Nation should have been given.

So, who is at fault?

Think that over.

Agree with you its nation responsibility to provide Defense forces with what ever they need but it is Defense forces responsibility not to make unreasonable demands.

Just for reasoning:
Army IAF wants fancy product even when :
1)Men on ground have no basic amenities like shoes etc
2)Not sufficient war wastage.
3)No gears for Men Bullet proof jackets etc.

Why don't forces go for these basic things before looking for high priced fancy toys as import.

I might be wrong but I read somewhere IA wanted Bullet proof jacket from foreign vendor when a domestic product equally good was available donno why?
If i recall correctly there was a huge cost difference.

So a question with a limited budget when IA can provide protective shield to 10 Army men (Domestic) instead of 4 (Foreign) why not provide a protective cover to more soldiers to risk life of all who do not have a bullet proof jacket even.

Please guide and suggest your take .

Just to say I donot have the test results for both here but I remember the article mentioned they both passed the trials.

 

[sgarg]

Buying locally is a matter of life and death in wartime. Foreign sources can dry up very fast. Plus India is a very large country with a very large sized military. No country has the size of industry to satisfy India's needs if sudden requirements materialize.

Only domestic industry with sufficient size and diversity can meet the defence needs of India.

 

[sgarg]

I love to proven wrong, but Arjun will not get bulk order. May be token order, but no bulk order.

Don't you think that the Arjun tank being there in active army formations is in itself a miracle?

The situation currently is that T-90 line is already set up. Resources have already been committed to that line. GOI likes the fact that T-90 is more supportable compared to Arjun.
So GOI is NOT going to argue against T-90 unless the Army itself changes its mind.

 

[sgarg]

The Arjun line is being used for producing tanks, as well as SPG. Avadi factory is fully busy. Avadi has been loaded fully. This should satisfy everybody - nationalists as well as anti-nationalists.

Simlarly BMP line has been loaded by giving additional BMP orders(latest updated version).

All parts of OFB have been given allocations for additional plant&machinery for modernization. People should watch OFB numbers as the increase in orders will show up in production figures.

The GOI is pushing for increased production in government owned factories while encouraging additional equipment lines to be set up in private sector.

However all parts of the supply chain need stability of requirements or product specifications. Volume of orders is necessary for efficiency in manufacturing.

 

[archie]

I am all for buying the best for the operational imperatives.

Be it foreign, be it Indian.

Life it at stake and we don't want to hear, Kargil was won, but at what costs?

If the correct equipment was given, then the question would have been redundant.

It was won by a cost, but then the Army can fight with only what the Nation gave, and not what the Nation should have been given.

So, who is at fault?

Think that over.

Winning at what cost is he question.. if the import lobby has control over the Army/IAF/ Security Establishment what cost are we paying ? Military should have statigic thinking . Logical stratigic thinking would be Even if its secong grade mass produced indegions stuff we will establish a capabilty to impove on the next itration(better stuff) .. for that economies of scale to kick in the military has to start relying on indegenous stuff and not keep saying life is at stake.. obviously we know its a supreme sacrifice but on a longer term say 10-20 years we save more life if we start using Home made and homegrown products ...

The way IAF and army have been on the Arjun and Tejas seems more likly that Import lobby already controls the country .. Complete reliance on imports goes against the stated objective of the military of India "to Protect India from External aggrsssion and threats" on a stratigic level if not operational level a the moment

Well if Arjun was not a decent Tank we would not have been offered T-90s in the first place
If Tejas is not good we will no be a part of FGFA deals

Just plain buying the best will not work for India and the Answer is more complicated .. that would be my humble opnion

 

[Ray]

Agree with you its nation responsibility to provide Defense forces with what ever they need but it is Defense forces responsibility not to make unreasonable demands.

Just for reasoning:
Army IAF wants fancy product even when :
1)Men on ground have no basic amenities like shoes etc
2)Not sufficient war wastage.
3)No gears for Men Bullet proof jackets etc.

Why don't forces go for these basic things before looking for high priced fancy toys as import.

I might be wrong but I read somewhere IA wanted Bullet proof jacket from foreign vendor when a domestic product equally good was available donno why?
If i recall correctly there was a huge cost difference.

So a question with a limited budget when IA can provide protective shield to 10 Army men (Domestic) instead of 4 (Foreign) why not provide a protective cover to more soldiers to risk life of all who do not have a bullet proof jacket even.

Please guide and suggest your take .

Just to say I donot have the test results for both here but I remember the article mentioned they both passed the trials.

You feel that the Military ask unreasonable stuff. Give examples.

Every project has to have a DRDO acceptance. Therefore, it is not unreasonable or flights of fancy.

Men have no shoes. Maybe. Does it require rocket science to design and get the same? Does it mean that shoes will keep the ability to defend India naked? If it is such a matter or priority, then the Budget should cater for both being met. And who does the Budget? The military? Cant some of the useless populist schemes be shelved? Maybe not since it equates in votes. So, the priorities are wrong.

If there is no WWR, who is responsible? The military and its 'fancy schemes'?

I am not aware if the BPJ of indigenous variety is superior. The basic component is Kevlar.

Lets be very clear. No amount of technological marvels can substitute good field craft. Sadly, we are more concerned, even in the military, for technology and give scant regards to field craft and platoon and company tactics. It is the man who counts and not the machine.



In India, men are not material. If that were so, then farmers suicide would convulse the nation. So, what is a Bullet proof vest to those who decide. And who decides? Not the military, but the Govt. So, blame the Govt.

Basic equipment is short term, wars are long term and with more devastating effect on nation prestige, pride and international prestige. Which is your choice? Lose a war?

 

[Ray]

Regarding missiles : They are an add on to the tank not the soul of the tank.
Yes AC is indeed help. Did T90 have AC initially?What will be the weight of the tank after AC being installed?
Stand still =not in motion stationary target practice for army.

Sharing a news articles about CAG:
CAG blames Army for delay in Arjun tanks' induction

Missiles are not add ons.

They are the soul because you wish to kill the enemy as far as possible you can so that he does not harm you with superior tactical skill.

Think of shooting a man rather than having to wrestle him and then stabbing him, provided he does not stab you first.

 

[sayareakd]

Don't you think that the Arjun tank being there in active army formations is in itself a miracle?

The situation currently is that T-90 line is already set up. Resources have already been committed to that line. GOI likes the fact that T-90 is more supportable compared to Arjun.
So GOI is NOT going to argue against T-90 unless the Army itself changes its mind.

Sanction MBT strength is 3800. How many Arjun in active service. No even 5%.

 

[Ray]

Texmaco makes rolling stock that can take Arjun.





Texmaco product PDF (look for BFAT wagon): http://www.texmaco.in/texmaco/file/Texmaco Rolling Stock.pdf

There are prime movers that can take 70 tons. I don't know whether India has those or not, but if it doesn't, they can be acquired any time.

Regarding bridges, we go back to my previous post. Either we get a light tank with more vulnerabilities, or a heavy tank with hich crew survivability. We can't have both in one machine.

Cost to change the rolling stock for an already impoverish railway?

Bridges is not about survivability. It is about crossing.

 

[sayareakd]

Don't you think that the Arjun tank being there in active army formations is in itself a miracle?

The situation currently is that T-90 line is already set up. Resources have already been committed to that line. GOI likes the fact that T-90 is more supportable compared to Arjun.
So GOI is NOT going to argue against T-90 unless the Army itself changes its mind.

There is sanction of 3800 MBT, at present what is strength of Arjun tanks, less then 5% of total sanction strength.

 

[sgarg]

Sanction MBT strength is 3800. How many Arjun in active service. No even 5%.

I agree. Only about 120 Arjuns have been delivered to army. More will be delivered in Mark-2 form. SPG (80 units) are also being made on Arjun chassis. Avadi cannot build a lot of Arjuns. What is the capacity of the line?? I guess the existing orders will take 4 years.
Even if you give more orders today, nothing is going to happen in the short run.
T-90 line can turn out 100 tanks per year. T-90 orders are already existing. This government did not give any additional T-90 orders. The existing orders need to complete.

 

[pmaitra]

Cost to change the rolling stock for an already impoverish railway?

Bridges is not about survivability. It is about crossing.

Survivability is indirectly linked to bridges. Higher survivability -> heavier tank -> stronger bridges.

Now, coming to the other point you made, that if the rest of the world moves on with technology, should we lag behind and be outgunned? Many countries are moving over to the heavy 60-70 ton category. The frequent changes to Arjun tank's requirements kept up with the way the western MBTs were evolving. The western armies must have figured out their bridges too. Did the Indian Army keep that in mind while asking for changes to the Arjun tank?

 

[sayareakd]

I agree. Only about 120 Arjuns have been delivered to army. More will be delivered in Mark-2 form. SPG (80 units) are also being made on Arjun chassis. Avadi cannot build a lot of Arjuns. What is the capacity of the line?? I guess the existing orders will take 4 years.
Even if you give more orders today, nothing is going to happen in the short run.
T-90 line can turn out 100 tanks per year. T-90 orders are already existing. This government did not give any additional T-90 orders. The existing orders need to complete.

I already posted that bulk order wont come. If bulk order comes new production line can be set up.

 

[Ray]

Survivability is indirectly linked to bridges. Higher survivability -> heavier tank -> stronger bridges.

Now, coming to the other point you made, that if the rest of the world moves on with technology, should we lag behind and be outgunned? Many countries are moving over to the heavy 60-70 ton category. The frequent changes to Arjun tank's requirements kept up with the way the western MBTs were evolving. The western armies must have figured out their bridges too. Did the Indian Army keep that in mind while asking for changes to the Arjun tank?

Heavy tanks > high survivability. Check the cost of changing the bridges along the border. They, as it is, took a long time to change from metre gauge to broad guage. Why was it done? Because of military requirement and not for any other reason. Further, can India change Pakistani bridges also since if armour advance into Pakistan, they will per force have to cross Pakistani bridges.

Many countries are moving over to the heavy 60-70 ton category. Once again you forget the terrain that they will operate on this side and then on the Pakistani side.

 

[pmaitra]

Heavy tanks > high survivability. Check the cost of changing the bridges along the border. They, as it is, took a long time to change from metre gauge to broad guage. Why was it done? Because of military requirement and not for any other reason.

Sir, Regarding being able to afford upgrading bridges, if we can import weapons and be the largest or second largest weapons importer, we can certainly upgrade the bridges on our side.

Further, can India change Pakistani bridges also since if armour advance into Pakistan, they will per force have to cross Pakistani bridges.

The army should have thought about this in 1972 instead of asking DRDO to make a tank that attempts to emulate the Abrams and Leo.

Many countries are moving over to the heavy 60-70 ton category. Once again you forget the terrain that they will operate on this side and then on the Pakistani side.

No, I am not forgetting the terrain. Terrain is not a problem. I will repeat again what I have said which I don't know why is being repeatedly ignored?

The Indian Army chose the T-90 as its MBT, which means, the Indian Army deemed it fit for use in the deserts of Rajasthan and plains of Punjab.

T-90 has more ground pressure than Arjun Mark I. So in conclusion, if T-90 can function in certain places along the Indo-Pak border, so can Arjun Mark I.

Pressure is not weight. Pressure is weight per unit area.

For those that need proof, here are the numbers, posted in the year 2012: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/defence-strategic-issues/44522-arjun-vs-t90-mbt-7.html#post624694

@Mad Indian, try not to barge into a thread and write your non-technical gibberish. You are student of science, so, do the right thing, and argue with numbers. If you cannot do that, then repeat to yourself your favourite strawman, that India is doing better than North Korea, and spare us your long winded posts with lots of verbiage and zero content.

P.S.: After adding AC in the T-90, the ground pressure probably went up even further.

 

[Ray]

Sir, Regarding being able to afford upgrading bridges, if we can import weapons and be the largest or second largest weapons importer, we can certainly upgrade the bridges on our side.

You are right and in the interim, Pakistan attacks us. We lose land and also all the bridges.

The army should have thought about this in 1972 instead of asking DRDO to make a tank that attempts to emulate the Abrams and Leo.

Done in consultation with what the DRDO stated that they can do and having been given the operational imperatives.

No, I am not forgetting the terrain. Terrain is not a problem. I will repeat again what I have said which I don't know why is being repeatedly ignored?

Terrain is THE problem.

 

[pmaitra]

You are right and in the interim, Pakistan attacks us. We lose land and also all the bridges.

I don't know the status of the bridges. If the bridges have not been strengthened in the last three decades, then it is not the fault of DRDO.

Done in consultation with what the DRDO stated that they can do and having been given the operational imperatives.

What was done in consultation with DRDO? Bridges were upgraded in consultation with DRDO?

Terrain is THE problem.

And T-90 is worse than Arjun in tackling the terrain. In other words, I am doubting the judgment of the army in procuring the second batch of T-90s. I do not, however, expect the army to ever admit its mistakes.

 

[Pulkit]

Missiles are not add ons.

They are the soul because you wish to kill the enemy as far as possible you can so that he does not harm you with superior tactical skill.

Think of shooting a man rather than having to wrestle him and then stabbing him, provided he does not stab you first.

Did you miss or avoided the CAG news article?

 

[Ray]

Give the link.

 

[Ray]

I don't know the status of the bridges. If the bridges have not been strengthened in the last three decades, then it is not the fault of DRDO.

Agreed.

Neither it is the fault of the Army. The Army fights with what it gets and not what it should have. And pays with their lives that is lamented and questioned by the very Nation that did not equip them. Remember the hue and cry over Kargil? That is the difference.

What was done in consultation with DRDO? Bridges were upgraded in consultation with DRDO?

The GSQR and the revisions.

Bridges is not in the realm of the military or the DRDO. Nor is the Budget.

And T-90 is worse than Arjun in tackling the terrain. In other words, I am doubting the judgment of the army in procuring the second batch of T-90s. I do not, however, expect the army to ever admit its mistakes.

Your statement against the Army.

Join the BJP and become the Defence Minister. Maybe we will see Accha Din.