Countering cold start: Military to adopt new war concept

[prakashbioc]

Pak army is not anymore suppose to fight with india..

the first layer of defence will be made around the indian border by the common pakistanis.

PA would be more of an overkill against IA

Proved by humiliating defeats in 1948, 1971 and in Kargil wars

 

[Singh]

[/B]

Proved by humiliating defeats in 1948, 1971 and in Kargil wars

What about 65 ?

 

[farhan_9909]

My understanding.

Pakistan has no way of knowing if the Indian Ballistic Missiles flying overhead are nuclear tipped or not. And their response might be to fire nuclear tipped ballistic missiles

What will bring Pakistan quickly to the negotiating table will be a significant capture of their territory or massive damage to their military operational capability both of which CSD aims to achieve.

CSD will be India's version of a limited professional war.

what if pak captures india's territory?

Because the Goal of this new Azm e nau series exercise is to not only restrict the indian CSD to indian territory.but to move the war into offensive to keep it within indian territory further

 

[farhan_9909]

[/B]

Proved by humiliating defeats in 1948, 1971 and in Kargil wars

fighting a enemy many times stronger than you is itself a higher rfeet.

leaving this aside.in war you dont need only soldier but continue supply line
Why we lost 1971

*Total strength of soldiers in east pak was 1.2lac. vis a vis 10 times more indian troops and millions of Bangladesh freedom fighters
*Naval Blockade of East pakistan
*West pakistan more than 2k miles far from east pakistan
*No ammo or any other supply line
*Local in millions wanting freedom and against the pakistani troops
*only 1 squadron was stationed in Bangladesh
*ofcourse no resources as well

And the list goes on.

but nothing like this will be repeated in the 2015-16 war

 

[ladder]

fighting a enemy many times stronger than you is itself a higher rfeet.

leaving this aside.in war you dont need only soldier but continue supply line
Why we lost 1971

*Total strength of soldiers in east pak was 1.2lac. vis a vis 10 times more indian troops and millions of Bangladesh freedom fighters
*Naval Blockade of East pakistan
*West pakistan more than 2k miles far from east pakistan
*No ammo or any other supply line
*Local in millions wanting freedom and against the pakistani troops
*only 1 squadron was stationed in Bangladesh
*ofcourse no resources as well

And the list goes on.

but nothing like this will be repeated in the 2015-16 war

What were your achievements in western sector in 1971 war?
The problems mentioned by you were not a hindrance in western sector isn't it?

 

[sayareakd]

fighting a enemy many times stronger than you is itself a higher rfeet.

leaving this aside.in war you dont need only soldier but continue supply line
Why we lost 1971

*Total strength of soldiers in east pak was 1.2lac. vis a vis 10 times more indian troops and millions of Bangladesh freedom fighters
*Naval Blockade of East pakistan
*West pakistan more than 2k miles far from east pakistan
*No ammo or any other supply line
*Local in millions wanting freedom and against the pakistani troops
*only 1 squadron was stationed in Bangladesh
*ofcourse no resources as well

And the list goes on.

but nothing like this will be repeated in the 2015-16 war

so why you guys start war in first place, if you dont have resources or manpower to take punga with us ?

BTW like you said earlier IK will come to power which never happen same way if war happen in 2015 or 16 you guys will going to look for new country.

 

[Singh]

what if pak captures india's territory?

Because the Goal of this new Azm e nau series exercise is to not only restrict the indian CSD to indian territory.but to move the war into offensive to keep it within indian territory further

Excellent Question and Apt Strategy.

Indian response would be to remove/contain Pakistani forces within our borders, and to press on the offensive at the same time. This will help in negotiations.

In fact we would actually allow some parts of Thar Desert for eg. to be captured so that Pakistan doesn't think of firing nukes.
We will try to contain them, funnel them in an area, and try to use IBGs within Pakistani territory to wreak havoc and mayhem.

 

[sayareakd]

Pakistani forget that rest of our forces would be defensive operations. While IBG are cutting Pakistan into 6-8 pieces, IBG will arrived with just after Brahmos and Prithvi missiles on their airbases and other military infrastructure.

 

[farhan_9909]

What were your achievements in western sector in 1971 war?
The problems mentioned by you were not a hindrance in western sector isn't it?

Because of POW.
the war was very very short.if i am not wrong started on 2nd dec and ended on 16 dec.

And later on the Agreement.

though PAF bombed almost all the indian airbases of the western front

 

[farhan_9909]

Excellent Question and Apt Strategy.

Indian response would be to remove/contain Pakistani forces within our borders, and to press on the offensive at the same time. This will help in negotiations.

In fact we would actually allow some parts of Thar Desert for eg. to be captured so that Pakistan doesn't think of firing nukes.
We will try to contain them, funnel them in an area, and try to use IBGs within Pakistani territory to wreak havoc and mayhem.

Let suppose if under those negotiation pakistan doesnt want to return those parts of thar captured than india will attack or even if Pak return those parts under negotiation such as in the tashkent agreement will india still attack?

once those IBG's of india are defeated.it will also takes months for india to get into yet another offensive with pakistan.not that within a week india will move out its forces from the south and attack pakistan

 

[farhan_9909]

Pakistani forget that rest of our forces would be defensive operations. While IBG are cutting Pakistan into 6-8 pieces, IBG will arrived with just after Brahmos and Prithvi missiles on their airbases and other military infrastructure.

please post some details about your IBG's.
there past experience.and there equipments ofcourse..has india ever hold public exercises to how to penetrate into pakistan?

 

[Singh]

Let suppose if under those negotiation pakistan doesnt want to return those parts of thar captured than india will attack or even if Pak return those parts under negotiation such as in the tashkent agreement will india still attack?

once those IBG's of india are defeated.it will also takes months for india to get into yet another offensive with pakistan.not that within a week india will move out its forces from the south and attack pakistan

Why would Pakistan negotiate if it doesn't want to handover any "Captured" Indian territory and vice versa ?

What is guarantee that India will not attack Pakistan again, is the same guarantee that Pakistan will not repeat what it did to prompt CSD in the first place.

The aim of CSD is to give a military answer to Pakistan. If that fails, then all bets are off. Basically, India doesn't have a military-jihadi complex at its beck and call, what we do have is superior conventional military. If that doesn't deter or is not enough to punish Pakistan, then we will have to escalate the conflict and bring it to the Pakistani soil and civilians.

 

[JBH22]

Bakistan at its best.


I asked 1 simple how to finance fuel cost for the attacking army, answer I got was a loan of USD 15billion was being discussed with KSA.

 

[ladder]

Because of POW.
the war was very very short.if i am not wrong started on 2nd dec and ended on 16 dec.

And later on the Agreement.

though PAF bombed almost all the indian airbases of the western front

Fair enough there were POW in the eastern front.
And the war lasted more or less for two weeks.
But,
Wouldn't it be lie to not state that you had seen this coming, when you had accused India of instigating and arming Bengali nationalist all through the year.
The air attack was started by PAF on the western front, starting the war on that front.And still you couldn't gain substantial asserts so as to bring them on the negotiation table as the bargain chips against those POW's.

All along from 1948 the LOC had been heavily guarded, still even when you had the advantage of choosing the date and place of attack on the western front, we were able to capture two villages which were under Pakistani control previously before the war and we still hold them as I write.

There wasn't any substantial gain by Pakistani army even on western front.

You also have to recognize that India was also fighting on two fronts which though contiguous is separated by 2000 km and logistics was painful for us too.And to add to it we didn't have the luxury of thinning our northern borders.

 

[DivineHeretic]

Pakistani forget that rest of our forces would be defensive operations. While IBG are cutting Pakistan into 6-8 pieces, IBG will arrived with just after Brahmos and Prithvi missiles on their airbases and other military infrastructure.

Actually, I have my doubts on even the IBGs....not on their existence, but more on their composition and objectives.

The widely held view is that it will be a division sized force (give or take a brigade), armour heavy and designed for independent operations for 72 hours before reinforcement requirement.

I would not be surprised if the IA has been very selective with the information leak.....Somethings appear to be contradictory IMO.

Firstly, for a division sized force to continue high intensity ops for 72 hours, it will require a pretty big integrated logistics capbility...and we are talking of 100s or even 1000s of truckloads. And that is for the ammunition and fuel only. There will be additional requirements for medical equipment, troop supply.It can be executed no doubt, but it would leave a very long tail for a deep cutting formation.

Then we come to the second contradiction. The IBGs will conduct deep penetrating runs into Pak territory, while the other formations begin massing and reinforcing them. Thus you have the massive, very heavy 120,000 strong I, II & XII Strike corps, the most powerful formations in South Asia (atleast). Why would an army commit its most capable assets to reinforcing a far weaker formation.

I am fairly certain those strike corps will not take a stroll to the border and stand guard. If it reaches the border, it will replace/relieve the IBGs in operation. Anything less and its a waste to have them at all.

Thirdly, Why does everybody assume that all IBGs will have the same size and composition or for that matter have different areas of operations? Or why would an IBG be necessarily be a land force?

One could be an Airborne division, formed by integrating the Para (regular) brigade (with substantially uprated firepower) with army aviation attack wing and heliborne troops. Such dense yet light units can quickly attack and occupy mountaineous positions where hostile reinforcement is limited and slow.

Or they could also support another IBG or even a pair of land mobile IBGs in a co-ordinated operation, with the airborne troops choking strategic routes, blocking resupply, giving the land mobile IBGs much more time to achieve their objectives.

Another IBG could be an amphibious assault brigade or even a couple of amphibious brigades tied together.

These might sound like fantasy, but then most doctrines started out as fantasies...

The reason IMO we haven't heard about the composition of IBGs is that there is no fixed composition at all. It is possible that a number of units (brigades, batallions or even divisions) are earmarked for deep penetrating operations, with the IA forming up an IBG as the need and opportunity arises. The recent exercises do tend to indicate that many smaller formations, particularly the independent brigades are being trained to work in close co-ordination with other units, including Army aviation assets.

Of course though, these are just the extrapolations of my hypothesis.

 

[sayareakd]

please post some details about your IBG's.
there past experience.and there equipments ofcourse..has india ever hold public exercises to how to penetrate into pakistan?

Details of IBG are classified but here is the info available from open source

In May 2011, India launched Operation Vijayee Bhava ("Be Victorious"), a defence exercise involving 50,000 troops[10] in Bikaner and Suratgarh near the border with Pakistan in order to boost the synergy between the various branches of the armed forces.[11]

The main objective of the operation was to cut down the mobilisation time of the military, which took 27 days to mobilise during Operation Parakram. The Indian Army confirmed that the exercise was successful, reducing mobilisation time drastically to 48 hours.[12]

In July 2011, India tested the Prahaar, a new solid-fuel tactical ballistic missile with a range of 150 km[13] designed to provide invading Indian Army battle groups with lethal fire support.[14]

Later that year, the Indian Army conducted its largest war games in the last two decades, titled Operation Sudarshan Shakti under the Southern Command Headquarters, to revalidate its Cold Start doctrine.[15] The desert exercise was based on the Integrated Theatre Battle concept, where various defence wings and military elements have to participate in a single cohesive format during war.[16]

The focus of Sudarshan Shakti was to practice synergy and integration between ground and air forces. Nearly 60,000 troops and 500 armoured vehicles, including T-72, T-90 and Arjun main battle tanks, carried out simulated assaults on their objectives, with support from artillery and the Indian Air Force.[17]

The Indian military has also tested newly inducted radars, unmanned aerial vehicles, surveillance systems, precision guided bombs, missiles, space-based assets and real-time data-sharing between elements.[16]

 

[bose]

please post some details about your IBG's.
there past experience.and there equipments ofcourse..has india ever hold public exercises to how to penetrate into pakistan?

Operation Brasstracks in 1987 by General Sunder Ji...

 

[DivineHeretic]

Details of IBG are classified but here is the info available from open source

Like all things good in the military, CSD too comes with a classified tag.

But seriously, if you look at all the major war games/exercises, you will find an army corps being at the centre of the operation. Even in the article you posted, it is pretty evident that the a corps size formation was at the centre of the exercises. But there is a little numerical discrepancy, to my mind atleast

In fact, I'd stick my neck out and say that the numbers say the story behind the IBGs. The two war games, the biggest in some time, involved from 50,000-60,000 troops and a host of other assets. And elements (if not the whole strike corps itself) of the II &XXI strike corps were involved.

Now, what we know from the wargame is that apart from a fast deployment training, the tactics involved were at division level, and not at the strike corps level. Additionally, the numbers indicate atleast another major formation from a pivot corps was involved in the exercise (assuming the entire strike corps took part). This extra may be theformation earmarked for IBG operation.

If thats the case, the IBGs are being trained/practised to operate along the divisions of the strike corps and other assets, and not in an isolated manner.

Please Feel free to correct me, if my understanding is wrong.

 

[farhan_9909]

Why would Pakistan negotiate if it doesn't want to handover any "Captured" Indian territory and vice versa ?

What is guarantee that India will not attack Pakistan again, is the same guarantee that Pakistan will not repeat what it did to prompt CSD in the first place.

The aim of CSD is to give a military answer to Pakistan. If that fails, then all bets are off. Basically, India doesn't have a military-jihadi complex at its beck and call, what we do have is superior conventional military. If that doesn't deter or is not enough to punish Pakistan, then we will have to escalate the conflict and bring it to the Pakistani soil and civilians.

Negotiate for cease fire while not handover the land back

Ok so CSD aim is to give military level answer to Pakistan.Let suppose they fail but pakistan doesnt capture any territory of india rather just force them to go back.and the CSD attempt is considered fail..will the IA still want to escalate the war with maximum force.

or they will just sit down for sometime be it months or years and attack again.

I know Nasr is never gonna use.if they were so keeen on using nasr.they would have stopped deploying tanks,MLRS,troop on the border.

Nasr will be used as the last option when the indian IBG:'s are enough closer to Cities like lahore.

 

[farhan_9909]

Fair enough there were POW in the eastern front.
And the war lasted more or less for two weeks.
But,
Wouldn't it be lie to not state that you had seen this coming, when you had accused India of instigating and arming Bengali nationalist all through the year.
The air attack was started by PAF on the western front, starting the war on that front.And still you couldn't gain substantial asserts so as to bring them on the negotiation table as the bargain chips against those POW's.

All along from 1948 the LOC had been heavily guarded, still even when you had the advantage of choosing the date and place of attack on the western front, we were able to capture two villages which were under Pakistani control previously before the war and we still hold them as I write.

There wasn't any substantial gain by Pakistani army even on western front.

You also have to recognize that India was also fighting on two fronts which though contiguous is separated by 2000 km and logistics was painful for us too.And to add to it we didn't have the luxury of thinning our northern borders.

Well No,POW were more,,General niazi was there.

Pakistan military strength only increased when under Zia pak relations with USA grew.we got alot of weapons and aid.before this..india was almost 10 times more powerful than pakistan in both quantity and quality level.

whatever.But if Bangladesh was either attached to today pakistan or the bangladeshis themselves didnt wanted to get seperated.the outcome of world could had been different