Civil war in Ukraine

Status
Not open for further replies.

sgarg

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
3,480
Likes
986
That's cowboy idea from WSJ. But NATO does need to help Ukraine military get back on its feet at least to be able to defend its territorial integrity.
Ukraine has received 7B IMF assistance in the Poroshenko era. It must have received couple billion of unannounced military assistance.

No doubt Kiev is forced to mortgage its gold as the Western assistance is inadequate.

West can supply weapons to Kiev but there is no guarantee of success. Increased weapons on Kiev side will be met with increased weapons on the Moscow side.

Kiev will not suddenly jump to NATO level despite all the training that NATO can offer.

It is called "that sinking feeling" when you bite more than you can chew.
 

asianobserve

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
May 5, 2011
Messages
12,846
Likes
8,556
Country flag
Ukraine has received 7B IMF assistance in the Poroshenko era. It must have received couple billion of unannounced military assistance.

No doubt Kiev is forced to mortgage its gold as the Western assistance is inadequate.

West can supply weapons to Kiev but there is no guarantee of success. Increased weapons on Kiev side will be met with increased weapons on the Moscow side.

Kiev will not suddenly jump to NATO level despite all the training that NATO can offer.

It is called "that sinking feeling" when you bite more than you can chew.

If Western leaders only have the same cynical inclination as Putin then they should by all means flood Ukraine with weapons and money to grind down Russia (Ukrainian nationalists will simply fight Russian forces). This could be another Afghanistan for Russia. But Ukraine is in Europe and the especially Europeans do not want wars in their backyard. So they the West is only taking measures calculated to prod Russia to let Ukraine rule itself. If you noticed there's actually no appetite in Western governments for a conflict with Russia, they want business with it.
 

sgarg

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
3,480
Likes
986
If Western leaders only have the same cynical inclination as Putin then they should by all means flood Ukraine with weapons and money to grind down Russia (Ukrainian nationalists will simply fight Russian forces). This could be another Afghanistan for Russia. But Ukraine is in Europe and the especially Europeans do not want wars in their backyard. So they the West is only taking measures calculated to prod Russia to let Ukraine rule itself. If you noticed there's actually no appetite in Western governments for a conflict with Russia, they want business with it.
I doubt generosity is the reason as you imply. "War in their backyard" cannot be a big deal for an alliance that is ready 24x7 for war.
You can say "realism" is the reason.
The reports that I have seen tell me that Kiev has plenty of weapons. If it has failed, that is due to conduct of war from its side.
Russians have never applied overwhelming force so far.
 

asianobserve

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
May 5, 2011
Messages
12,846
Likes
8,556
Country flag
I doubt generosity is the reason as you imply. "War in their backyard" cannot be a big deal for an alliance that is ready 24x7 for war.
You can say "realism" is the reason.
The reports that I have seen tell me that Kiev has plenty of weapons. If it has failed, that is due to conduct of war from its side.
Russians have never applied overwhelming force so far.
If even poor and backward Afghanistan can inflict so much pain on the giant USSR (with American help) I don't see any reason why Ukraine can;t inflict similar or even more pain on Russia should they have a full pledged conventional war. But that is not in the interest of the Europeans.

You also said that the West is already entangled in a lot of war, true, but these wars are in far off places. When it comes to the European continent that is the last thing they want.

BTW, the Ruble is continuing to go down, life for ordinary Russians are getting harder, sanctions are biting hard causing chaos on the Russian economy, are you sure Putin is not a CIA agent whose task is to weaken Russia? :laugh:
 

jouni

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2014
Messages
3,900
Likes
1,138
I post this also here to show how carefully planned this whole operation is. Hitler Jugend looks like a boy scout compared to Eurasian Youth Union. Ukrainian crisis was a long planned operation, root cause is the same as with Molotov-Ribbentropp pact.

It was in 2005, when the Kremlin's siloviki revitalized their support for pro-Russian separatists in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. That year, the organization "Donetsk Republic" – a Russian proxy in the ongoing war in Eastern Ukraine – was created. Its leaders went to Russia in 2006 to participate in the summer camp of the Eurasian Youth Union that was established in 2005 with the money from the Presidential Administration of Russia on the initiative of Aleksandr Dugin, major ideologue of the Russia-led Eurasian Empire, and Vladislav Surkov, then deputy head of the Presidential Administration. This summer camp was aimed at further indoctrination of the activists and training for fighting against democratic movements in the neighbouring states. Instructors from security services taught methods of espionage, sabotage and guerrilla tactics. Among the participants of the summer camp was Andrey Purgin, who is now "First Prime Minister" of the "Donetsk People's Republic".

Anton Shekhovtsov's blog: The "Ukraine crisis" is a long-planned operation
 

sgarg

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
3,480
Likes
986
If even poor and backward Afghanistan can inflict so much pain on the giant USSR (with American help) I don't see any reason why Ukraine can;t inflict similar or even more pain on Russia should they have a full pledged conventional war. But that is not in the interest of the Europeans.
You also said that the West is already entangled in a lot of war, true, but these wars are in far off places. When it comes to the European continent that is the last thing they want.
BTW, the Ruble is continuing to go down, life for ordinary Russians are getting harder, sanctions are biting hard causing chaos on the Russian economy, are you sure Putin is not a CIA agent whose task is to weaken Russia? :laugh:
Ukrainian cannot fight like Afgani. An afgani is born to fight. An afgani is an illiterate who knows nothing else. An Ukrainian is hard to put in that category. So Ukraine can never be Afganistan.

West is doing which it thinks is most effective. West knows that war will result in large-scale destruction of infrastructure which will only increase its bill for Ukraine.

This fight in Ukraine is fairly far-off from Berlin and Brussels. Nobody there can hear the bombs.

Yes it is the financial war. However there is a big downside to the financial war. The sanctions give an option to Russia to exit its international agreements.

Putin IS NOT a CIA agent as he listens to broad advice. As I said before, the reality and propaganda are two different things.
 
Last edited:

sgarg

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
3,480
Likes
986
George Soros' Giant Globalist Footprint in Ukraine's Turmoil

George Soros' Giant Globalist Footprint in Ukraine's Turmoil

Billionaire investor/activist George Soros has a giant footprint in Ukraine. Similar to his operations in dozens of other nations, he has, over the past couple of decades, poured tens of millions of dollars into Ukrainian non-governmental organizations (NGOs), ostensibly to assist them in transforming their country into a more "open" and "democratic" society.

Many of the participants in Kiev's "EuroMaidan" demonstrations were members of Soros-funded NGOs and/or were trained by the same NGOs in the many workshops and conferences sponsored by Soros' International Renaissance Foundation (IRF), and his various Open Society institutes and foundations. The IRF, founded and funded by Soros, boasts that it has given "more than any other donor organization" to "democratic transformation" of Ukraine.

The International Renaissance Foundation's Annual Report for 2012, the latest available, states that, "IRF provided UAH 63 million in funding to civil society organizations — more than any other donor organization working in this field in Ukraine." The "UAH" reference used above refers to the Ukraine Hryvnia, Ukraine's currency, which is worth about 0.11 $US, or 11 cents in U.S. currency. That translates into roughly $6.7 million that IRF provided to Ukrainian groups in 2012; not a huge sum, by comparison to many other political and social campaigns, but more than merely "significant." In the cash-starved Ukraine, Soros's dollars go a long way toward seducing and co-opting all legitimate political opposition into the Soros-approved "progressive" camp.
 

sgarg

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
3,480
Likes
986
According to the IRF's own website, this one Soros conduit has funneled over $100 million into Ukrainian NGOs over the years:

Over the period from 1990 to 2010 the International Renaissance Foundation provided more than $100 million in support to numerous Ukrainian non-government organizations (NGOs), community groups, academic and cultural institutions, publishing houses, etc.
 
Last edited:

sgarg

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
3,480
Likes
986
Ukraine could still stage a financial meltdown and a banking collapse. More likely, the new government will be helped over the next few months with bridging loans until the IMF deal is struck. Then the hardship for the people will really begin in earnest. Ukraine's foreign debt is about to double as it takes on new debt from the IMF and the cost of existing dollar and euro debt jumps as the hyrvnia is devalued. This burden will be on shoulders of Ukrainians for a generation.

Only it could double several times over, and it could burden Ukrainians for much longer than a generation; it could fasten them with debt bondage in perpetuity. Bosnian writer Andrej Nikolaidis warns Ukrainians that massive debt and grinding poverty under Troika-managed regime are to be expected. "It hardly comes as a surprise to us in former Yugoslavia," writes Nikolaidis. "At the beginning of its dissolution, the Yugoslav foreign debt was £9.5bn; today, after all the 'help' we got from the troika, it's more than £107bn." He continues:

Bosnia today is a poor and divided country, even more so than it was back in 1992. Former soldiers, hungry and sick, are gathering and protesting. "While we were bleeding, they were stealing," says one"¦ Some Bosnians saw their future under the Bosnian and EU flag, others under the Croatian and EU flag, and others still under the flag of The Great Serbia. Lots of flags, but only one poverty for all.
 
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Messages
57
Likes
62
Last edited:

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
THE BACK FOOT IN UKRAINE

- A new third phase of the crisis


Ukraine has slipped from the Indian headlines, but it is still the prime security concern in Europe. With Nato engaging in more frequent and bigger military exercises, and Russia responding with aggressive patrolling by sea and air, there have been 11 dangerously close encounters this year, three of which were considered 'high risk'. In Ukraine itself, following the separatist elections in Donetsk and Lugansk on November 2 and the Russian 'acceptance' of the result — acceptance, not approval, the Russian spokesman was quick to clarify — the crisis in Ukraine has moved into a new third phase.

The first phase had ended with the re-unification of Crimea with Russia, the Ukraine government's signing of the association agreement with the European Union and the first round of Western sanctions against Russia. The last two events represented the Euro-American challenge to Russian authority in Ukraine in the backdrop of the exchange of accusations that were shot through with the rhetoric of a new Cold War.

The second phase of the Ukraine crisis closed shortly after the Ukrainian parliamentary elections in October, when President Poroshenko's party emerged as the largest in the Rada, and culminated in the wholesale collapse of Western initiatives to build on the first phase, initiatives that were designed to lead to a consolidation of authority by Kiev over the whole of Ukraine and abject submission by Russia. The Western retreat was occasioned by the EU's desperation that the escalating situation would jeopardize Europe's gas supplies (30 per cent of requirements) from Russia during the approaching winter, and the conviction that an association agreement with a country where the economy was so unstable would be of little help to an EU itself faced with several economic and financial difficulties.

This second phase witnessed Kiev's military manoeuvres in its two eastern 'rebel' provinces where the Russian speaking population is numerous. Oligarchs were appointed by Kiev as governors, and military and para-military forces were thrown into the area. This was countered by the large-scale militarization of the opposition to Kiev in the Donetsk and Lugansk provinces, and fighting between Kiev's forces and the separatists, who were undoubtedly assisted by Russia from across the border. The separatists went on to fashion a sketchy establishment termed the Donetsk and Lugansk People's Republics as part of a long-term objective to create a state of Novo- rossiya (New Russia). The fighting between the Kiev forces and the separatists created the context of the tragic Malaysian Airlines crash, which, in turn, led to an increase in the range of sanctions imposed by the West against Russia.

Contrary to the outcome expected in the West, the consequence was the steadfast determination by Russia to stay the course of its policy. Moscow continued to demand constitutional reform in Ukraine to address the concerns of the Russian-speaking people (40 per cent of the population in Donetsk and Lugansk), and an Ukrainian government commitment to pay its debts to Russia for past deliveries of fuel. Meanwhile, militant separatism in the two provinces, with Russian support, continued unabated.

Faced with such determination, concessions to Russia were given by the Kiev government and the EU. Following the Minsk accord to establish a ceasefire in Donetsk and Lugansk, Poroshenko agreed on September 12 to postpone the implementation of the economic aspects of the EU association agreement until 2016, and a package of financial assistance was arranged from the EU and the International Monetary Fund to help pay for Russian gas by October 31. Ironically, the requests former President Yanukovich had made to the EU in November, last year, were now substantially met — except, this time, to an administration that the West regards as an ally and in circumstances where the old disparate Maidan opposition to Yanukovich has been constituted into formations that defend the authorities in Kiev. The reforms in financial and business law that the association agreement with the EU would have required of the Ukraine, making things very difficult for Russian business in the country, are on hold, and EU goods will not be given free access to Ukraine, and thereby indirectly to Russia. Above all, Russia's gas revenues were guaranteed by Europe. Poroshenko also agreed to hold a referendum in Donetsk and Lugansk in early November to evaluate opinions concerning decentralization and local autonomy. That promise has now, of course, been rescinded, with both parties blaming each other.

It is significant that the Russian government's agreement on gas did not follow from unilateral strength. It was an indication of the fact that the sale of gas to Ukraine and Europe is as compelling for Russia as for its customers. Moscow clearly understands that it must sell as much gas as possible to Europe at a time when its revenues are falling owing to the fall in international energy prices. The Ukraine channels 50 per cent of Russian gas supplies to Europe, and the Russian government in closing the pipelines to Ukraine had shut off much of the gas supply to European customers in the process. The use of energy as a weapon to achieve Russian ascendancy in Ukraine, irrespective of the losses in revenue, would have involved unsupportable losses to Russia in the long term.

The bravado of the Russian indifference to sanctions, on the other hand, is an indication of the domestic strength of the Putin government. The West hoped the embargoes would destabilize the Russian economy sufficiently to undermine the Kremlin through generating dissatisfaction among the country's oligarchs and business magnates who constitute its economic élite. Sensing this danger, the Russian government spurned any concessions to the West that would have scaled down the sanctions, and instead sent a stern warning to the economic élite. Similar to its action against the oligarch, Khodorkovskii, a decade ago, the Putin government demonstrated its capacity to deal with the Russian plutocrats, this time through its actions against the Sistema chief, Yevtushenkov. The Communist Party is the main opposition in Russia, and its nationalist credentials have been successfully appropriated by Putin and his United Russia Party. The decline in per-capita income that will result from currency depreciation, revenue losses, fall in government investment and capital flight will have no political repercussions in a country where there is no opposition platform that can count in the political process.

The obvious gains for Russia in Ukraine have undermined the West's hopes for a consolidation of the status quo in the aftermath of the Ukrainian parliamentary elections. This was made abundantly clear from the holding of presidential and parliamentary elections by the separatists in the two rebel provinces and Russia's acceptance of the result that questions Ukraine's sovereignty. The short reason for this is that Moscow does not trust the EU or Poroshenko's government. Putin anticipates attempts to rein in 'Novorossiya' through financial means like the withholding of state pensions, business and loans, and the slow absorption of the region, along with the rest of Ukraine, into the EU and ultimately the Nato.

The only guarantee against this, as Russia sees it, is to preserve the chaotic circumstances that separatism in the east creates for the Ukrainian economy and authorities. Alternative spheres of influence, pension systems and currencies are being generated in the separatist enclaves with important resources. If Kiev wishes to avoid the deleterious consequences of Russian-inspired separatism, it must place the economic association agreement with the EU on hold indefinitely, and create the institutional basis of radical federalization in the country that will render this postponement irreversible.

At this time of writing, even given the reality of a pro-EU government in Kiev — and on September 16 there was great jubilation over Ukraine's association with the EU — the Euro-American alliance is still on the back foot in Ukraine. The Russians seem determined, in spite of the sanctions and the hardships arising therefrom, to see that the West will not have its way in Ukraine without contest.

K. Srinivasan is former foreign secretary of India. H. Vasudevan is professor of history at Calcutta University
The back foot in Ukraine
 

bhramos

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2009
Messages
25,625
Likes
37,236
Country flag
Demonstration for the victims of fascist genocide in Odessa in 2 may 2014 in Bratislava

 

sgarg

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
3,480
Likes
986
Can we separate the pictorials from the opinions in this thread. I think the opinion matters more than the pictures.

As the issue is very important, it is preferable that people are able to form an opinion after reading through the thread.
@pmaitra, please think about it.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top