Civil war in Ukraine

[arpakola]

Νovember 04, 13:54 UTC+3

DONETSK, November 4. /TASS/. Alexander Zakharchenko was officially sworn in as head of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic, TASS reported from an inauguration ceremony which is under way at Donetsk Music and Drama Theatre on Tuesday.

Zakharchenko has taken an oath on the Bible. "I swear solemnly to serve honestly the interests of people, Donetsk People's Republic and to perform decently my duties," the new head of state said.

Before a solemn speech head of the Donetsk republican Central Elections Commission Roman Lyagin presented Zakharchenko with a certificate of the head of the republic. Before the inauguration ceremony, four Cossacks in traditional clothes have brought the flag of the Donetsk People's Republic to the drama theatre hall.


Givi .. dancing

 

[jouni]

He doesn't have a weak memory. He has a predefined set of scripts, such as below, that he keeps repeating from time to time:
"This reminds of Hitler."
"Democracy, freedom, liberty."

Ask him why the West toppled a democratically elected President? He will fall silent.

Read between the lines.

I read this Serbian article you posted, It would be interesting to know your view on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpOpnFzTfVQ

 

[jouni]

@pmaitra,

Yanukovitch was actually ousted twice. Thank you for blaming west for that, it makes me feel good. Coming from small Finland we always forgot how mentally strong west is and can achieve such a deeds, magic actually... almost as good as snake charming! (a joke not to be taken literally, or anti-indian culture view )

BBC News - Profile: Ukraine's ousted President Viktor Yanukovych

 

[arpakola]

I read this Serbian article you posted, It would be interesting to know your view on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpOpnFzTfVQ

 

[jouni]

That list is a little bit longer than that of the Greece army, well you had a pretty good record running through your country and taking the next boat out in spring of ´41...
Well, I guess it is easier to blame it all, in the good old US of A...

 

[@yourService]

He doesn't have a weak memory. He has a predefined set of scripts, such as below, that he keeps repeating from time to time:
"This reminds of Hitler."
"Democracy, freedom, liberty."

Ask him why the West toppled a democratically elected President? He will fall silent.

Read between the lines.

Sir, apart from your accurate analysis, I would also like to mention a clear modus operandi in Western MSM (including the 'liberal' Guardian) -
Step 1 : Create a hysteric barrage of articles suggesting Russian aggression.
Ex 1 : Russian troops in Ukraine. Not a single image, let alone talk about any footage was published but based on anonymous accounts.
Ex 2 : Russian sub in Swedish territorial waters. After an expensive search nothing was found, apparently the submarine just evaporated. Again sources are 'local' citizens informing armed forces.
Ex 3 : Russian fighters crossing into others' airspace. In these series of articles, no mention was about NATO drills or NATO aerial surveillance inside Russia. Even a Latvian Antonov was mentioned as Russia's fault.

Step 2 : No trace of anything was found and well informed populace asking questions about those.

Step 3 : Suppress the coverage.

Job Done ! A step further in demonizing Russia or Putin, whichever, is most appropriate.

Regarding Finland's neutrality, I would like to mention a book recommended to me by a Swedish friend of mine -
The Secret War Against Sweden: US and British Submarine Deception in the 1980s (Cass Series: Naval Policy and History) by Ola Tunander

 

[jouni]

L.A.Times correspondent Sergei Loiko: “What I’ve seen at Donetsk airport I haven’t seen in any war.” | Voices of Ukraine

 

[jouni]

Sir, apart from your accurate analysis, I would also like to mention a clear modus operandi in Western MSM (including the 'liberal' Guardian) -
Step 1 : Create a hysteric barrage of articles suggesting Russian aggression.
Ex 1 : Russian troops in Ukraine. Not a single image, let alone talk about any footage was published but based on anonymous accounts.
Ex 2 : Russian sub in Swedish territorial waters. After an expensive search nothing was found, apparently the submarine just evaporated. Again sources are 'local' citizens informing armed forces.
Ex 3 : Russian fighters crossing into others' airspace. In these series of articles, no mention was about NATO drills or NATO aerial surveillance inside Russia. Even a Latvian Antonov was mentioned as Russia's fault.

Step 2 : No trace of anything was found and well informed populace asking questions about those.

Step 3 : Suppress the coverage.

Job Done ! A step further in demonizing Russia or Putin, whichever, is most appropriate.

Regarding Finland's neutrality, I would like to mention a book recommended to me by a Swedish friend of mine -
The Secret War Against Sweden: US and British Submarine Deception in the 1980s (Cass Series: Naval Policy and History) by Ola Tunander

Interesting book, might even be true. Truth is that the only threat to Scandinavia is Russia. They took Finnish nickel mine and Arctic sea port in '44. Who knows, after Ukraine they might want Norwegian oil fields.

Natural resources alone do not make country rich. With all her riches Russia is still a poor country with huge inequity and majority of the population struggling to get by day by day.

 

[arpakola]

4th of November, 2014.
March in support of Novorossiya was held in Saint Petersburg today.
https://www.facebook.com/TruthfromUkraine/posts/1568164576740222?notif_t=notify_me

 

[jouni]

The history does not matter now. Today's situation is pure military moves by USA with the help of its sympathisers.
What happened in World War II is not a justification of today's American aggression all over the world.
You are making it a democracy vs communism. This is why I called you a propagandist. This war is not at all about communism.

It looks like the more underdeveloped/ autocratic/ oppressive the country is, the more anti-American it is. When I came to this forum I was also pretty sceptical about USA, but seeing you openly support dictatorships that cant even guarantee well-being to their own people, but gather the wealth for the few and then oppress the rest makes me think again.

I agree with you that Iraq war was a mistake, but using that an excuse to support even more widespread hatred and violence supporting government makes you look as bad as those you blame.

 

[sgarg]

@jouni, you are an interesting person who can say anything to advance his views.

I was just waiting for the poverty/under-developed card. I knew it wont be long before you flash this card.

These are last days of Anglo-American empire. It will end badly for this empire as well as the whole world. Nothing good can come out of this.

The democracy that you boast off has originated in ancient India. The West speaks of democracy but its systems are deeply rigged. There is no real democracy in the West.

Russia also has many problems, but there is no way to put you ahead of Russia.

 

[sgarg]

I am watching Ukraine conflict with great interest. It is clear that Russia has technological deficiencies in war fighting. However I am amazed at Russian determination.

My view remains that Ukraine is the loser in this conflict. It is just a matter of time before a viable NovoRussia is created.

 

[jouni]

@jouni, you are an interesting person who can say anything to advance his views.

I was just waiting for the poverty/under-developed card. I knew it wont be long before you flash this card.

These are last days of Anglo-American empire. It will end badly for this empire as well as the whole world. Nothing good can come out of this.

The democracy that you boast off has originated in ancient India. The West speaks of democracy but its systems are deeply rigged. There is no real democracy in the West.

Russia also has many problems, but there is no way to put you ahead of Russia.

You have quite dim view of the future. I partly agree with you, this is something that has been simmering under the surface for a long time and is just surfacing in Ukraine. What would be the solution then? Apart destruction of the empire and the world?

No matter how much I think of your hate of the west, I cannot understand it. Yes, Iraq was a mistake. Kosovo was not, Arab spring still waiting for a judge. But what about other things: how many western companies in India, how many Indians work and study in the west? Who has designed the tech you use in your cars, phones, fridges, computers, medicine? Why this division? Why blaming the whole west for the mistakes of few? Are you really supporting Putin for isolating his country? Do you wish India to do the same? Do you not appreciate democracy for how it has risen the standard of living of all Europeans, not just the Elite?

Do you want your president to start suppress human rights in India? Promote hatred towards your neighbours?

 

[pmaitra]

You have quite dim view of the future. I partly agree with you, this is something that has been simmering under the surface for a long time and is just surfacing in Ukraine. What would be the solution then? Apart destruction of the empire and the world?

No matter how much I think of your hate of the west, I cannot understand it. Yes, Iraq was a mistake. Kosovo was not, Arab spring still waiting for a judge. But what about other things: how many western companies in India, how many Indians work and study in the west? Who has designed the tech you use in your cars, phones, fridges, computers, medicine? Why this division? Why blaming the whole west for the mistakes of few? Are you really supporting Putin for isolating his country? Do you wish India to do the same? Do you not appreciate democracy for how it has risen the standard of living of all Europeans, not just the Elite?

Do you want your president to start suppress human rights in India? Promote hatred towards your neighbours?

You entire post is riddled with a lot of false premises.

It is probably your unwillingness to read what others are saying that is at fault. As I said, you have your own script, and you wish to stick to that, that the fact that you refuse to respond to the question as to why the west (the regimes, not everyone who lives in the west) toppled a democratically elected President, bears testimony to that.

Keep talking about democracy. The world is not blind.

Regarding hate, yes, we all hate bloodshed and mass slaughter of people, especially civilians. Is that incompatible with western values? If so, then so be it.

 

[jouni]

West did not topple Yanukovitch, I cannot answer a question which has false premise to start with. West toppled Saddam, Gaddafi . Own people toppled Yanukovitch and Mubarak.

Saddam was revenge of Bush family and it was wrong. Gaddafi was ousted by own people with the help of western air force. Yanukovitch was ousted by Ukrainians. If you believe otherwise, you may.

I respect Russian governments way of making people believe its view on world matters. Many people believe what they say. It is not their fault, just proof of how good Russian soft power is.

 

[pmaitra]

West did not topple Yanukovitch, I cannot answer a question which has false premise to start with. West toppled Saddam, Gaddafi . Own people toppled Yanukovitch and Mubarak.

Saddam was revenge of Bush family and it was wrong. Gaddafi was ousted by own people with the help of western air force. Yanukovitch was ousted by Ukrainians. If you believe otherwise, you may.

I respect Russian governments way of making people believe its view on world matters. Many people believe what they say. It is not their fault, just proof of how good Russian soft power is.

Oh yes, I was wrong. West backed Nazis toppled the democratically elected President of Ukraine. Now we have a correct premise.

Carry on.

 

[sgarg]

You have quite dim view of the future. I partly agree with you, this is something that has been simmering under the surface for a long time and is just surfacing in Ukraine. What would be the solution then? Apart destruction of the empire and the world?

No matter how much I think of your hate of the west, I cannot understand it. Yes, Iraq was a mistake. Kosovo was not, Arab spring still waiting for a judge. But what about other things: how many western companies in India, how many Indians work and study in the west? Who has designed the tech you use in your cars, phones, fridges, computers, medicine? Why this division? Why blaming the whole west for the mistakes of few? Are you really supporting Putin for isolating his country? Do you wish India to do the same? Do you not appreciate democracy for how it has risen the standard of living of all Europeans, not just the Elite?

Do you want your president to start suppress human rights in India? Promote hatred towards your neighbours?

I have already told you that you did not invent democracy. The democracy has come from Vedic rules for administration of State.

Science and Technology cannot be the reasons for manipulation of other nation's currency, active economic warfare, frequent threats of military action etc. that the West dishes 24x7.

Science and Technology is not unique to the West. However I agree that western society is set up for faster technological development at this time compared to other societies. However the basis for this "faster development" is currency manipulation and use of military force.

I do not hate anybody. I never said a word about Obama or your President. You constantly dish out hateful words against Putin and now you want to target our President. You are hateful, not me.

Kosovo was a bigger mistake compared to Iraq. I do not not agree with you at all. The Western appeasement of Muslims has been one very serious problem. The political rise of extremist Islam has its roots in policies of Anglo American empire.

Now you are flashing "human rights" card at me. Your concept of "human rights" is very selective and arbitrary to what suits your purpose. We do not accept these premises.

 

[sgarg]

West did not topple Yanukovitch, I cannot answer a question which has false premise to start with. West toppled Saddam, Gaddafi . Own people toppled Yanukovitch and Mubarak.

I respect Russian governments way of making people believe its view on world matters. Many people believe what they say. It is not their fault, just proof of how good Russian soft power is.

The issue is not Yanukovych alone. The mess that America has created in the middle-east is a nightmare for many countries including India.
Yanukovych is just an example of creating trouble in other States through sabotage.

Why Ukraine is unable to come out of recession. War cannot be a reason, as war actually increases production. The money is plenty as the West throws unlimited money at Kiev. So what is it?

The West supports a Kiev regime that thrives on petty and divisive policies, and calls it legitimate. Why?

 

[pmaitra]

I have already told you that you did not invent democracy. The democracy has come from Vedic rules for administration of State.

Science and Technology cannot be the reasons for manipulation of other nation's currency, active economic warfare, frequent threats of military action etc. that the West dishes 24x7.

Science and Technology is not unique to the West. However I agree that western society is set up for faster technological development at this time compared to other societies. However the basis for this "faster development" is currency manipulation and use of military force.

I do not hate anybody. I never said a word about Obama or your President. You constantly dish out hateful words against Putin and now you want to target our President. You are hateful, not me.

Kosovo was a bigger mistake compared to Iraq. I do not not agree with you at all. The Western appeasement of Muslims has been one very serious problem. The political rise of extremist Islam has its roots in policies of Anglo American empire.

Now you are flashing "human rights" card at me. Your concept of "human rights" is very selective and arbitrary to what suits your purpose. We do not accept these premises.

+1 for the truth.

I think he can say whatever he wants against any politician, as long as it is not directed against any member.

 

[sgarg]

While @jouni harps about democracy in Ukraine, I see martial law or military administration soon.

The "snap elections" are unlikely to change anything in Ukraine politics. The polity remains divided with factions quarrelling often.

As military defeats pile up for Kiev, the ability of this "new" RADA to take decisions will evaporate. As the old saying goes - who want to handle the hot potato??

There are persistent reports about Americans training Ukrainian irregulars in guerilla warfare. However this will not have much impact as there is not much population left in Donetsk and Lugansk. Mostly pensioners and soldiers are left. Young people have already fled the conflict. The industry is already shot. Sabotage will not have much impact in this area. However the situation is dramatically opposite in Kiev controlled area. We shall see how Kiev handles when tables turn on it.

Russia has taken the approach of attrition of regular Ukrainian forces in a constant steady manner. This is already affecting morale as rockets rain down on Uk. army positions, while UkAF sits in bases unable to fire at these MLRS positions.

The only hope for Kiev is guerilla warfare. However there is no guarantee of success. If the strategy results in further escalation, the result will be loss of infrastructure in Kiev held areas which will weaken Kiev's hold on these areas.

The public opinion is fickle, as every democratic country has realized.