China's first indigenous carrier CV17

[smooth manifold]

No.. Only 4.5 years.. The life of a ship is considered since its keel laying and not since its steel is cut.
As such, Vikrant's keel was laid in 2009 and was launched in 2013.

the only thing I'm not sure about is if it can carry 36 aircrafts even with a smaller island, I personally believe 32 is the most likely.

 

[Bhurki]

the only thing I'm not sure about is if it can carry 36 aircrafts even with a smaller island, I personally believe 32 is the most likely.

It'll be even lower if you consider optimum sortie generation capacity. Something like 24-28( 18-22 fixed and 6-10 heli). Limiting factors are the huge J15 and lift capacity of only 1 aircraft by both lifts.

Starboard side can park no more than 10(8+2on lift) and port side only 2 ( not sure) when launching and arresting simultaneously.

 

[shiphone]

the standard carrier-based aircraft fleet size of Type001/CV-16 is always 36 (24 J-15+12 helicopters)...

the chief commander of Type002/CV-17 from ship building industry claimed that the new carrier could carry 36 J-15 in the CCTV interview of this August. but we thought there was some misapprehension.

 

[Bhurki]

the standard carrier-based aircraft fleet size of Type001/CV-16 is always 36 (24 J-15+12 helicopters)...

the chief commander of Type002/CV-17 from ship building industry claimed that the new carrier could carry 36 J-15 in the CCTV interview of this August. but we thought there was some misapprehension.

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'Could' is different from 'would'.
There's a difference between nominal capacity and operational numbers.
I don't think i have ever seen more than 14 on deck even when exclusively arresting and not launching.
Nimitz 'could' carry 90 but carries about 70.

 

[shiphone]

36(24+12) is the operation number for Type001/CV16... no doubt...this is stipulated in the technical specifications document of this Project.

what you saw means nothing here coz what you can 'see' is very very 'little'...

 

[Bhurki]

36(24+12) is the operation number for Type001/CV16... no doubt...this is stipulated in the technical specifications document of this Project.

what you saw means nothing here coz what you can 'see' is very very 'little'...

The only place they can park aircraft is on deck or in hangar. Unless, the chinese tow an extra barge behind the carrier, it'll be hard to sustain more than 24-26 J15 on that carrier for long.
Constraints are quite public to understand this.
While arresting, only forward stations are allowed to launch, which limit payload and therefore Sortie duration. For increased sortie duration, one will have to launch from extended station and shut down landing operations which again will limit sustained flight operations for any more than 24-26 aircraft.
Sure it can enable a 32-40 aircraft airwing for a single sortie each, but turnaround will be a nightmare.
Add to that , J15's footprint is way more than that of a F18e. There are only 2 lifts on shandong, each can only lift 1 J15 each.
All I'm saying, it can carry 32 J15 for surges but will usually carry only 24.

 

[Armand2REP]

J15's footprint is way more than that of a F18e

Yes but it isn't much different than a Rafale that can't close its wings. CdG has no problem operating 30+ Rafale from the carrier including two massive E-2C Hawkeyes.


The Shandong has been engineered for more hanger and deck space as opposed to the Liaoning, it shouldn't be much of a problem when you see how tight the J-15's wings fold.

 

[Bhurki]

....................................

 

[skywatcher]

Update: Carrier Shandong left Dalian port today. Mission unknown.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Why doesn't China have any J-15 on the carriers? Is it because of issues with design and quality or is there a new fighter in the works?

 

[skywatcher]

Why doesn't China have any J-15 on the carriers? Is it because of issues with design and quality or is there a new fighter in the works?

It's just not on the deck. J-XX program is not for Shandong.

 

[vampyrbladez]

It's just not on the deck. J-XX program is not for Shandong.

Is the J-XX a naval version of the J-31 fighter jets?

 

[skywatcher]

Is the J-XX a naval version of the J-31 fighter jets?

Maybe there's some sort of link between the two. But J-XX is definitely NOT a naval version of J-31. As a tech demonstrator, J-31 was never officially funded.

 

[skywatcher]

Update: Shandong left port today

 

[Hari Sud]

Update: Shandong left port today

Carriers are worthless if enough experience to operate them has not been gained. Chinese suffer from this lack of experience. Moreover culturally, they are afraid of the deep hence stay within coastal environment. For them to travel 4000 km to India Ocean via Straits of Malacca is a sure death knell for them. On the other hand highly experienced Indian Navy with modern ships is waiting for them. Remember the Japan Sea battle of 1905 when a mighty Russian Armada travelled 6000 miles to confront Japanese small navy. Japanese sunk the whole Russian Armada in 20 minutes of the start of the battle. The sea weary Russian sailors and Admirals were completely out maneuvered.

My point, do not make the same mistake. If the Chinese do make it, then get ready for a big defeat.

 

[rockdog]

Carriers are worthless if enough experience to operate them has not been gained. Chinese suffer from this lack of experience. Moreover culturally, they are afraid of the deep hence stay within coastal environment. For them to travel 4000 km to India Ocean via Straits of Malacca is a sure death knell for them. On the other hand highly experienced Indian Navy with modern ships is waiting for them. Remember the Japan Sea battle of 1905 when a mighty Russian Armada travelled 6000 miles to confront Japanese small navy. Japanese sunk the whole Russian Armada in 20 minutes of the start of the battle. The sea weary Russian sailors and Admirals were completely out maneuvered.

My point, do not make the same mistake. If the Chinese do make it, then get ready for a big defeat.

India shouldn't build Carrier, since India suffers from this lack of experience of building it. Remember the current half-built one delayed for some many times.

My point, do not make the same mistake. If the India do make it, then get ready for a delay forever.

 

[Bhurki]

Stobar carriers like Vikramaditya, Vikrant, 001,002 are just not where the game is at. They're very limited in scope of engagement.

1) No fixed wing Awac means extreme short sightedness( low helicopter range/speed, power of radar carried is also low) for very short period of time ( low helicopter endurance).
So how do you strike if you can't see the enemy more than 300 km from the CSG (200 km heli range + 100 km radar range)

2) Limited endurance/speed of carrier itself.(non nuclear)

3) Extremely reduced payload for aircraft ( although 80% of missions will be anti air, so not exactly the a limitation of the aircraft itself).

4) Small magazine capacity of the carrier.
(Nimitz carries more than 3000 tons of armament, Kuznetsov less than 500, also limited fuel for aircraft)

All in all, these stobars are just air cover for the ships that carry missiles ( cruisers, destroyers) and so perform a defensive role, while full strike carrier performs offensive role only and the attached destroyer squadrons are there for only defense.

 

[fire starter]

Stobar carriers like Vikramaditya, Vikrant, 001,002 are just not where the game is at. They're very limited in scope of engagement.

1) No fixed wing Awac means extreme short sightedness( low helicopter range/speed, power of radar carried is also low) for very short period of time ( low helicopter endurance).
So how do you strike if you can't see the enemy more than 300 km from the CSG (200 km heli range + 100 km radar range)

2) Limited endurance/speed of carrier itself.(non nuclear)

3) Extremely reduced payload for aircraft ( although 80% of missions will be anti air, so not exactly the a limitation of the aircraft itself).

4) Small magazine capacity of the carrier.
(Nimitz carries more than 3000 tons of armament, Kuznetsov less than 500, also limited fuel for aircraft)

All in all, these stobars are just air cover for the ships that carry missiles ( cruisers, destroyers) and so perform a defensive role, while full strike carrier performs offensive role only and the attachments destrpyer squadrons are there for only defense.

of course that's why navy is demanding for CATOBAR carrier.

 

[Bhurki]

of course that's why navy is demanding for CATOBAR carrier.

Why build vikrant in the first place? And if built then why not atleast the size of Kuznetsov(60,000 tons) rather than another Kiev(40,000 tons)?

 

[rockdog]

Stobar carriers like Vikramaditya, Vikrant, 001,002 are just not where the game is at. They're very limited in scope of engagement.

1) No fixed wing Awac means extreme short sightedness( low helicopter range/speed, power of radar carried is also low) for very short period of time ( low helicopter endurance).
So how do you strike if you can't see the enemy more than 300 km from the CSG (200 km heli range + 100 km radar range)

2) Limited endurance/speed of carrier itself.(non nuclear)

3) Extremely reduced payload for aircraft ( although 80% of missions will be anti air, so not exactly the a limitation of the aircraft itself).

4) Small magazine capacity of the carrier.
(Nimitz carries more than 3000 tons of armament, Kuznetsov less than 500, also limited fuel for aircraft)

All in all, these stobars are just air cover for the ships that carry missiles ( cruisers, destroyers) and so perform a defensive role, while full strike carrier performs offensive role only and the attachments destrpyer squadrons are there for only defense.

Indeed, building stobar carriers is the first know-how process, it's never the finish line for PLA navy.
PLA navy clearly define the three steps: Stobar, electromagnetic catapult + conventional power， electromagnetic catapult + nuclear power; the 003 is the 2nd step.

Plus, the prototype of Chinese naval AEW was out 2 days ago, it gives a solid platform to start getting experience on operating such a class of aircraft.

After this one, most sub system seems ready: