China Economy: News & Discussion

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

I am not comparing them to usa in my post I was saying regarding our comparison
They have vibrant automobile industry compared to us They are producing new tech in the industry earlier compare to us infact in few years they will be innovating and leading in this industry just like phones
How can we forget their ev its far ahead than us in terms of manufacturing, technology and processing
They will literally dominate ev after few years I mean they will set trends and everyone else will follow

What EV trends specifically? They have not set any EV trends. If you are talking about high volume LI ion batteries, yes the PLI scheme is for setting up the ecosystem. We are just about starting to build all these ecosystems and the China + 1 supply chain infrastructure means only India can do so. And Indian companies are pretty good at organizing capital, setting up infrastructure and getting all vendors together and manufacturing in volumes. See Ola’s strategy.
There is an ecosystem advantage in aerospace you forgot to mention. We are building high quality manufacturing components in critical technology areas for western aerospace companies.When we grow richer and bigger, many such technology knowledge will transfer to building out a whole passenger airplane like the CCP has done.
What I agree is we are late to the game. But we have a major advantage in critical technologies. Western and Japanese companies can only scale with Indian management, land, labor and infrastructure as this needs trust. We will be doing big volumes as we grow as well. Japan’s $45 B investment into India is all about manufacturing as well.We can do almost all of the stuff the CCP is doing as we get closer to $8-10 trillion.
The success depends on PLI schemes and strong pro business governments. Apple and its vendors have successfully scaled in India with very few issues. So has Samsung. So, all that ecosystem is building up. Semiconductor is slowly building up. More people will pursue manufacturing jobs building a large talent pool.
Here is another area where we are not competing badly - data centers. The largest ones are in China, India, and the US.

13 Largest Data Centers In The World In 2024 [By Size] - RankRed

Today, we have more than 7 million data centers that handle small and industrial-scale operations. Listing the largest 12 of them.

www.rankred.com

And of course the IT services , India rules supreme here for exports. Now we have to translate that to hardware, which shouldn’t be hard with the PLI. Let’s see how we grow but we would scale and build out an ecosystem just like the Chinese do due to our large market size. We will be behind China but not way behind.

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

Also, remember we don’t have to beat China in GDP. We need to get people’s income and living standards higher. And have sufficient money left over for doing big R&D like the CCP does to create critical technology.

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

The biggest reasons we lag behind are:
- the absolutely lethargic way of Khangress in reforming the society. China reformed their education especially skills education quite early in 1980s. Their literacy levels and life expectancy was much higher than ours by 1980, after the cultural reforms. The society was transformed with brutal repression to get rid of religious superstitions, double agriculture productivity, and make everyone hardworking. In India, nothing was done to improve education, skills, health, and agricultural productivity , even after visits to China by our babus, at the mass population level. Only the elite folks had decent skills - the opposite of Chinese policies under Mao’s. So, when 1980s hit and advanced nations like Japan, S. Korea, Taiwan, the west we’re looking to lower manufacturing costs - they had only place to go, which is China as only China had a large skilled labor force built for low skill manufacturing. India had very low literacy rate, health indicators, skill development and a very stagnant Indian industry that did not integrate with the global supply chains. Chinese had no problems opening up and integrating with global supply chains even in the 80s while the khangress was tightening the license raj.
‘The foundations of why we are 5-6x behind in production numbers is largely explained by what happened in the 70s-80s. China was growing at 10% rate constantly during 80s and 90s while we grew an average of 5-6% and ended up with bankruptcy in 1991. A large gap was already established by 1991 and since then we have been just playing catch up, which cannot be bridged even with high growth rates.
India needs a lot stricter PM than even Modi who just couldn‘t get farm reforms, education reforms, health reforms, labor etc done. Agriculture productivity must double and people must move to higher paying manufacturing. Bengal , Assam and Bihar so close to Bangladesh could have adopted that labor intensive model to increase labor force participation especially for women and increase income and GDP.
The issue india has is most of the population is in north , central and east India but skill levels, education and health standards are low, which means the labor can be used only in construction but not for say electronics manufacturing. And labor in the southern states are aging out and there are no demographic dividends with a TFR below replacement rates.
Whichever way we look at it, unless the massive number of youth in north, central, and east India become more educated, skilled, healthy, sophisticated and urbanized, we cannot close the gap. My bet is on Yogi and UP to close the gap, through rapid urbanization and skills development. Manufacturing might happen in UP itself only to some extent, but UP labor of around 150 million people is absolutely critical to manufacturing scaling up.
And Bihar/Bengal must be forced with an iron hand to follow the UP approach. No excuses. Crack down on bad governance and reform heavily. States that are stagnant in growth and labor participation,and are below Bangladesh per capita income must be ordered to get the policies right or risk central government rule there until incomes surge. Dismiss governments if they don’t perform economically and have central teams run the economy for a period. You need to use heavy handed approaches like China did to grow.
Medicine is bitter but if you want to cure, you have to take it. Or you die. So, no excuses.

 

[Sachinananda]

What EV trends specifically? They have not set any EV trends. If you are talking about high volume LI ion batteries, yes the PLI scheme is for setting up the ecosystem. We are just about starting to build all these ecosystems and the China + 1 supply chain infrastructure means only India can do so. And Indian companies are pretty good at organizing capital, setting up infrastructure and getting all vendors together and manufacturing in volumes. See Ola’s strategy.
There is an ecosystem advantage in aerospace you forgot to mention. We are building high quality manufacturing components in critical technology areas for western aerospace companies.When we grow richer and bigger, many such technology knowledge will transfer to building out a whole passenger airplane like the CCP has done.
What I agree is we are late to the game. But we have a major advantage in critical technologies. Western and Japanese companies can only scale with Indian management, land, labor and infrastructure as this needs trust. We will be doing big volumes as we grow as well. Japan’s $45 B investment into India is all about manufacturing as well.We can do almost all of the stuff the CCP is doing as we get closer to $8-10 trillion.
The success depends on PLI schemes and strong pro business governments. Apple and its vendors have successfully scaled in India with very few issues. So has Samsung. So, all that ecosystem is building up. Semiconductor is slowly building up. More people will pursue manufacturing jobs building a large talent pool.
Here is another area where we are not competing badly - data centers. The largest ones are in China, India, and the US.

13 Largest Data Centers In The World In 2024 [By Size] - RankRed

Today, we have more than 7 million data centers that handle small and industrial-scale operations. Listing the largest 12 of them.

www.rankred.com

And of course the IT services , India rules supreme here for exports. Now we have to translate that to hardware, which shouldn’t be hard with the PLI. Let’s see how we grow but we would scale and build out an ecosystem just like the Chinese do due to our large market size. We will be behind China but not way behind.

We can have a good ev market in future
I haven't said they are setting trends now but definitely they will in future as in case of phones
Which western high tech Aerospace manufacturing is done
I don't think manufacturing wings and aero frames for helis is something critical
Chinese produce literally everything from scratch in case Aerospace
Be it refuelers awacs fighters elint drones helis everything other fly object
PLI will take time its not immediate jadibuti
What may happen and may not in case of PLI is not certain it can fail in few critical areas too
And can u pls tell how are we going in semiconductors except vedanta which we have to wait bcoz it doesn't seem to materialize but again it can happen I will not be pessimistic but even then by the time we start Chinese will be light years ahead if we see current trend
Until now I haven't understand what Samsung is exactly manufacturing except assembling and pasting made in India(sorry I don't want to be harsh)
Coming to IT is nothing critical or contributing to complexity
We are good bcox we invested in it only bcoz our politicians wanted immediate solution for unemployment in order to win elections even this is fine according to me but it's nothing special bro

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

We can have a good ev market in future
I haven't said they are setting trends now but definitely they will in future as in case of phones
Which western high tech Aerospace manufacturing is done
I don't think manufacturing wings and aero frames for helis is something critical
Chinese produce literally everything from scratch in case Aerospace
Be it refuelers awacs fighters elint drones helis everything other fly object
PLI will take time its not immediate jadibuti
What may happen and may not in case of PLI is not certain it can fail in few critical areas too
And can u pls tell how are we going in semiconductors except vedanta which we have to wait bcoz it doesn't seem to materialize but again it can happen I will not be pessimistic but even then by the time we start Chinese will be light years ahead if we see current trend
Until now I haven't understand what Samsung is exactly manufacturing except assembling and pasting made in India(sorry I don't want to be harsh)
Coming to IT is nothing critical or contributing to complexity
We are good bcox we invested in it only bcoz our politicians wanted immediate solution for unemployment in order to win elections even this is fine according to me but it's nothing special bro

How do you know all this? Looks like you have been totally brainwashed by the Chini propaganda division.
- Do you not know about the various aerospace JVs between Indian companies and the west. What started of as basic production has evolved into making critical components. Actually tail fin and landing gear manufacturing are pretty critical things along with wings. Engines are hung from the wings. So you can understand the aerodynamic stability needed.
- Boeing has a full fledged gigantic R&D center in Bengaluru aerospace SEZ. TASL makes critical parts now.
- Politicians have nothing to do with IT. IT developed on its own.
- No they don’t produce everything from scratch in aerospace or defense. They still have a lot of Russian inventory.

Where are you getting this information that India’s manufacturers don’t make critical components? Not only do we make them, we export them.
- L&T, BHEL make some very critical industrial components including turbines, for example- Pune has many companies like Kirloskar who make advanced components.
- We make high capacity launch vehicles and satellites plus a range of missiles. We miniaturized the nuke reactor for SSBNs. ISRO makes cryogenic and semicryogenic engines. HAL makes singe crystal blades for helicopters. We make AESA radars. Do you think we are importing critical components for those from China? Lol.

You need to go do your own research. India’s manufacturing is pretty big as well, actually. Just because India is behind China in scale and volumes does not mean India does not possess advanced capabilities where needed. By the way most of China’s manufacturing volume is from low to mid complexity items. They are not exporting 100 crore time travel machines to the world. Lol.

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

Meanwhile in “everything made from scratch” CCP land

 

[Sachinananda]

How do you know all this? Looks like you have been totally brainwashed by the Chini propaganda division.
- Do you not know about the various aerospace JVs between Indian companies and the west. What started of as basic production has evolved into making critical components. Actually tail fin and landing gear manufacturing are pretty critical things along with wings. Engines are hung from the wings. So you can understand the aerodynamic stability needed.
- Boeing has a full fledged gigantic R&D center in Bengaluru aerospace SEZ. TASL makes critical parts now.
- Politicians have nothing to do with IT. IT developed on its own.
- No they don’t produce everything from scratch in aerospace or defense. They still have a lot of Russian inventory.

Where are you getting this information that India’s manufacturers don’t make critical components? Not only do we make them, we export them.
- L&T, BHEL make some very critical industrial components including turbines, for example- Pune has many companies like Kirloskar who make advanced components.
- We make high capacity launch vehicles and satellites plus a range of missiles. We miniaturized the nuke reactor for SSBNs. ISRO makes cryogenic and semicryogenic engines. HAL makes singe crystal blades for helicopters. We make AESA radars. Do you think we are importing critical components for those from China? Lol.

You need to go do your own research. India’s manufacturing is pretty big as well, actually. Just because India is behind China in scale and volumes does not mean India does not possess advanced capabilities where needed. By the way most of China’s manufacturing volume is from low to mid complexity items. They are not exporting 100 crore time travel machines to the world. Lol.

Their Aerospace industry is light years ahead of us
And yes making fins wings and landing gear is not that complex or nothing special to add in our mic
What Chinese are building every aircraft with completely Chinese components
Yeah they could have copied or stole ip or anything else point is they are making it from scratch be it engine avionics airframe weapons sensors and other techsHowcome Russian inventory is gonna help them manufacturing entirely new aircrafts
I said we are far from Chinese in critical tech area not that we are generally backward
We produce according to our small need
But Chinese are ahead
See they have all sorts of aero engines
All category
We don't even have single flying engine
Their semiconductor production and rnd is far ahead than us

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

Their Aerospace industry is light years ahead of us
And yes making fins wings and landing gear is not that complex or nothing special to add in our mic
What Chinese are building every aircraft with completely Chinese components
Yeah they could have copied or stole ip or anything else point is they are making it from scratch be it engine avionics airframe weapons sensors and other techsHowcome Russian inventory is gonna help them manufacturing entirely new aircrafts
I said we are far from Chinese in critical tech area not that we are generally backward
We produce according to our small need
But Chinese are ahead
See they have all sorts of aero engines
All category
We don't even have single flying engine
Their semiconductor production and rnd is far ahead than us

List these critical technology. What are they exactly? For example, let’s say they make certain lasers, we also make them. Most of it is technology that has existed for a long time that has been combined to make bigger things.
They make a lot of PCBs. We can make them but cannot beat them in cost. Same for solar photovoltaic cells.
China imports the base parts of electrical and electronics from Japan by the way. They also import a lot of critical items from Korea and Taiwan.
‘China’s power grid technology provider is ABB and Siemens, just like here. So, no they are not making everything in the world by themselves. Most of their medical devices are also made overseas.
This is just CCP propaganda that they make everything from scratch. Lol.
What they have done well is make everything at very large scale and at cheap costs and setup excellent export logistics. So while they produce $4 trillion manufacturing, we only produce $450 billion. That is a 10 times difference. We have to double or triple our manufacturing, and that requires millions of skilled, trained labor from UP, Bihar etc. to move away from construction jobs /agriculture and get into these higher paying jobs. China still exports huge volumes of garments and knitwear. So we need to do that as well.

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

Things like this are happening in India. Just because they are all not yet getting crores of export dollars means nothing. We will get there. But the process of funding and creating high value manufacturing companies is there.

 

[Ugra Bhairav]

China is total fraud.

Atleast 3,00,000 people died in Shanghai Itself, after China opened up suddenly, as per the estimate of Expat from China.

Chinese virus is wreaking havoc in China.

Due to Zero Covid policy of lockdown, very old variants exists in China with interaction with new variants entirely new and lethal variants can emerge.

China is again trying to infect whole world by sending people to foreign lands.


This talk is gem and completely exposing Chinese mismanagement of its affairs.

China is opaque nobody knows real situation of China and their data which is coming out on every parameter is FRAUD.

 

[Sachinananda]

List these critical technology. What are they exactly? For example, let’s say they make certain lasers, we also make them. Most of it is technology that has existed for a long time that has been combined to make bigger things.
They make a lot of PCBs. We can make them but cannot beat them in cost. Same for solar photovoltaic cells.
China imports the base parts of electrical and electronics from Japan by the way. They also import a lot of critical items from Korea and Taiwan.
‘China’s power grid technology provider is ABB and Siemens, just like here. So, no they are not making everything in the world by themselves. Most of their medical devices are also made overseas.
This is just CCP propaganda that they make everything from scratch. Lol.
What they have done well is make everything at very large scale and at cheap costs and setup excellent export logistics. So while they produce $4 trillion manufacturing, we only produce $450 billion. That is a 10 times difference. We have to double or triple our manufacturing, and that requires millions of skilled, trained labor from UP, Bihar etc. to move away from construction jobs /agriculture and get into these higher paying jobs. China still exports huge volumes of garments and knitwear. So we need to do that as well.

They make jet engines
They have mastered cryogenic tech long before us
They have functional mic
As u used they make pcb in huge nos and better quality and everyone imports from them
Do u have any proof of import of critical items from Japan or Korea
Sorry I have not read any report stating we have solar photovoltaic cell production capability
Forget that can we manufacture led diodes or led screen foundries
No
And pls answer my previous questions too

 

[KurtisBrian]

BYD Atto 3 best-selling model in Israel in Nov

The BYD Atto 3 sold 2,333 units in Israel in November, making it the best-selling of all models in the country.

cnevpost.com

People in Thailand queued overnight for BYD Atto 3, just like for iPhones | WapCar

The BYD Atto 3 went on sale in Thailand from 1-November and during the night before, queues were formed outside of BYD showrooms. A buyer, Mr Panithan, told Blink Drive that he had to take a flight fr

www.wapcar.my

Chinese Cars Now Account For Over 30% Of New Sales In Russia | Carscoops

Chinese cars could account for 35 per cent of Russian sales next year

www.carscoops.com

Soviet-era Russian car-maker to return with help from China – report

Two decades since it went bankrupt, Moskvich is back in Russia – reportedly partnering with a Chinese car-maker JAC to produce vehicles for the struggling market.

www.drive.com.au

Afghanistan signs oil extraction deal with Chinese company

Afghanistan’s Taliban-led administration has signed a contract with a Chinese company to extract oil from the Amu Darya basin and develop an oil reserve in the country’s northern Sar-e Pul province.

Wonder how that will work out.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

 

[SexyChineseLady]

Their Aerospace industry is light years ahead of us
And yes making fins wings and landing gear is not that complex or nothing special to add in our mic
What Chinese are building every aircraft with completely Chinese components
Yeah they could have copied or stole ip or anything else point is they are making it from scratch be it engine avionics airframe weapons sensors and other techsHowcome Russian inventory is gonna help them manufacturing entirely new aircrafts
I said we are far from Chinese in critical tech area not that we are generally backward
We produce according to our small need
But Chinese are ahead
See they have all sorts of aero engines
All category
We don't even have single flying engine
Their semiconductor production and rnd is far ahead than us

Turbofans are one of the industries, like HSR and EVs, that were built to scale just in the past 20 years.

Semiconductors will reach the same state in another five years or so with a domestic EUV -- it is not just Huawei but several other entities as well.

But back to turbofans as an example. China had test engines and prototypes like WS-6 and WS-8 built decades ago but they were never mass produced. The basics of jet propulsion are known by everyone. Anyone can design or even create a working model in a lab. But a rare few can mass produce turbofans to equip whole production runs of aircraft.

The WS-9 was China's ToT that kickstarted the production process. It was the British Spey matched to the JH-7 and JH-7A which are still in use today.

The WS-10 is the maturation of the process. Mass production began in 2009 for the J-11B and moved on to powering the J-16, the J-10B/C, the J-20A/B and the J-15. This took a decade but once the ecosystem is set up, programs can proliferate because the new projects already have a system in place to make whatever vision and design they have and do it in numbers :

Engine

Latest Variant

Top Thrust (all variants)

Status

WS-10	WS-10C	155 kN	Production: J-10C, J-11BG, J-15, J-20A
WS-13	WS-13E	100 kN	Production Line ready: JF-17 test, FC-31 prototype,J-35 prototype
WS-15	--	180 kN	J-20 test
WS-19	--	110 kN	Il-76 flight testbed
WS-11	--	17 kN	Production: JL-11 (K-8 variant)
WS-17	--	49 kN	L-15 test
WS-18	--	120 kN	Production: Y-20, H-6 variants
WS-20	--	160 kN	Production: Y-20B
CJ1000	--	196 kN	Il-76 flight testbed
CJ2000	--	340 kN	core successfully ignited

The key is putting together the eco-system and the production process to build things to economy of scale.

China does this in all its industries. Having a lab project like WS-8 or WS-6 in 1970s was great but they died because the infrastructure was not in place to realize actual production. You can't begin to catch up unless you build things consistently.

 

[indiatester]

Looks like the richer Chinese also are in trouble now. Property prices in elite cities seemed to have plunged.

A tangential question. @SexyChineseLady
Why is the realestate market in China so big? I mean the govt owns everything and the buyers really own it for just 70 years.
Sure, the govt keeps renewing it .... but still, why invest so much is some apartment where there is such substantial risk of some idiot coming and deciding that govt lease is over.

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

They make jet engines
They have mastered cryogenic tech long before us
They have functional mic
As u used they make pcb in huge nos and better quality and everyone imports from them
Do u have any proof of import of critical items from Japan or Korea
Sorry I have not read any report stating we have solar photovoltaic cell production capability
Forget that can we manufacture led diodes or led screen foundries
No
And pls answer my previous questions too

Do your own research. Import data for China is readily available.
China is not what you make out to be despite the CCP’s showboat projects. Things they do have all been done before by other countries. The reality is no one uses Chinese brands for critical technology like life saving biomedical devices.
We have already discussed jet engines. They are not reliable and underpowered, as many experts have stated.
You must understand that CCP is one giant propaganda machine. Nothing they do is transparent. So all of their leading edge tech claims are fraud or bogus. At the core of everything it is still all western, Japanese technology. I don’t know where you are getting this from but the CCP’s claim of “building everything from scratch” is ridiculous and not at all true.
You seem to lack a lot of knowledge about what is going on in India.
Remember who these bastards are at the end of the day. They are barbaric murderers of their own people as well as Indian soldiers through deceit and fraud. The CCP is a criminal organization that can go to any lengths - even deciding the next Dalai Lama. Chinese living in China lack morals and would go to any lengths to lie, steal, fake, murder, organ harvest etc.
Don’t be a simp.

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

This is bogus and total fraud. I still don’t understand why the mods here tolerate baseless propaganda.

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

Turbofans are one of the industries, like HSR and EVs, that were built to scale just in the past 20 years.

Semiconductors will reach the same state in another five years or so with a domestic EUV -- it is not just Huawei but several other entities as well.

But back to turbofans as an example. China had test engines and prototypes like WS-6 and WS-8 built decades ago but they were never mass produced. The basics of jet propulsion are known by everyone. Anyone can design or even create a working model in a lab. But a rare few can mass produce turbofans to equip whole production runs of aircraft.

The WS-9 was China's ToT that kickstarted the production process. It was the British Spey matched to the JH-7 and JH-7A which are still in use today.

The WS-10 is the maturation of the process. Mass production began in 2009 for the J-11B and moved on to powering the J-16, the J-10B/C, the J-20A/B and the J-15. This took a decade but once the ecosystem is set up, programs can proliferate because the new projects already have a system in place to make whatever vision and design they have and do it in numbers :

Engine

Latest Variant

Top Thrust (all variants)

Status

WS-10	WS-10C	155 kN	Production: J-10C, J-11BG, J-15, J-20A
WS-13	WS-13E	100 kN	Production Line ready: JF-17 test, FC-31 prototype,J-35 prototype
WS-15	--	180 kN	J-20 test
WS-19	--	110 kN	Il-76 flight testbed
WS-11	--	17 kN	Production: JL-11 (K-8 variant)
WS-17	--	49 kN	L-15 test
WS-18	--	120 kN	Production: Y-20, H-6 variants
WS-20	--	160 kN	Production: Y-20B
CJ1000	--	196 kN	Il-76 flight testbed
CJ2000	--	340 kN	core successfully ignited

The key is putting together the eco-system and the production process to build things to economy of scale.

China does this in all its industries. Having a lab project like WS-8 or WS-6 in 1970s was great but they died because the infrastructure was not in place to realize actual production. You can't begin to catch up unless you build things consistently.

Nothing will reach any state in whatever years. Lol. The ability for Chinese to do fraud things like thousand talents program to steal technology has been shut down. With the US bans on the use of critical technologies, it is going to take forever for the CCP to get anywhere. There is simply no data to show that there has been progress on any key technologies after the crackdown by the western world.

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

Story of the day:

 

[SexyChineseLady]

A tangential question. @SexyChineseLady
Why is the realestate market in China so big? I mean the govt owns everything and the buyers really own it for just 70 years.
Sure, the govt keeps renewing it .... but still, why invest so much is some apartment where there is such substantial risk of some idiot coming and deciding that govt lease is over.

Because there was very tangible wealth being created along with with a proven track record. Even if you were given land for perpetuity in say Sudan or Haiti, there is no guarantee of increasing value but in China land has increased in value many times over since Deng's opening in the 1980s.

How villagers in China’s Silicon Valley built a $40 billion fortune

amp.smh.com.au

Money begets money.