Arjun vs T90 MBT

[ersakthivel]

the belly protrusion is called legs and knees. are you assuming soldiers stand inside the arjun turret?


it's a matter of comparing and fitting shapes like this.

but apparently you're trying to convince me that the square peg goes in the round hole.


i've convinced pretty much every other indian, you're the only one left.

No one is asking people to squat and stage a communist strike inside arjun.

Just cut the useless talk,How many men can stand in the gap between the man sitting and the red box you scribbled?

Not facing you and me.SHOWING their SIDE profile to us.

Not more than two.
So that concludes there is only space enough for three men to stand jam packed,
looking at the red box between the chair's back and the red box you scribbled.

So if you take military standards these men have no pot bellies and the length occupied is not more than 250 mm get taht into your head first.

Your 500 mm allowance is for measuring people from shoulder to shoulder. What I am talking here is measurement in a perpendicular planr to the one you referring.

Get that into your mind before posting further on the topic.

You are refusing to acknowledge your own admission that this inside distance cannot be more than 800 mm.i will post your quote to support it.

GO TO THE POST NUMBER -932 POSTED BY YOU WHEN YOU ACCEPTED THIS LENGTH AS 700 MM, WHEN I SAID IT WAS 600 TO 800 MM.

NOW YOU ARE SAYING 1400 MM INSTEAD OF YOUR OWN ADMISSION OF 700 MM IN POST NUMBER-932.

only after your acceptance that i posted my calculation

SO my assumption is----------- 2500mm-(600 mm +800mm)=1100 mm remaining space for armor.

You keep changing your drawings and dimensions every third post with every one of them wrong.How do we argue?

 

[ersakthivel]

yes, it is called the metric system.

in norway perhaps

The hook small hook inline with the gun in the above photo.

Just infront of the handle you marked there is a small hook on the turret top behind the mantlet in the drawing below.

,Just look at the fist hook on the turret top right behind the gun mantlet which will give you the,
exact distance of between 500 to 600 mm for the cutaway hole for the sighting system.

Because at this point on the hook 500 mm length is marked on the line drawing posted by PMAITRA from the turret front edge ( leaving aside the big gun mantlet plate).How far is the cutaway ends from the hook on the photo,not more than 100 mm perhaps.

in a drawing using the original metric system dimension(no traffic marker)

SO I am basing my assumption ----------- 2500mm-(600 mm +800mm)=1100 mm remaining space for armor.

 

[ersakthivel]

It is a 80s design which means technology from anywhere between 60s and 80s. It is currently an early cold war design.



You are trying too hard. He won't understand and you are only wasting time.

Can we move forward?

Move where? just read my above two posts and challenge it if you can.
The scale is there below.Dimensions of everything is clearly marked unlike the most of the dimensionless drawings posted here with lines arrowing out to all corners in all colors.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Dont relate your hosh-posh with science, You dont have a Clue, dont you ?, So does about your idea on material, you are not specific about anything in you post, You have no idea about anything on Kanchan do you ?

Material alone does not decide the outcome, But how and what manner they are arranged in..

with SCIENCE. and by reading Armour basics by Paul lakowski,

 

[ersakthivel]

300mm of frontal armor on the turret? You might as well say that we copied the tank from a WWII design. Anyway where do you think the $8-9 million of the tank cost goes to? The toilet?

Your money is safe.
PMAITRA posted a genuine drawing.But the calculations to arrive at 350 mm armor width is based on wishfull thinking with dimensionlesss drawings.
Do you think thats the reason why IA decided to make ARJUN it's future MBT?

 

[ersakthivel]

Dont relate your hosh-posh with science, You dont have a Clue, dont you ?

Material alone does not decide the outcome, But how and what manner they are arranged in..

So does about your idea on material, you are not specific about anything in you post, You have no idea about anything on Kanchan do you ?

It seems you are just rolling on your own, good luck..

Only DEJA wolf and some other posters read material science. The guys developing KANCHAN armor are history graduates according to him.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Silly ..........................

The guys developing KANCHAN armor are history graduates according to him.

 

[p2prada]

i've convinced pretty much every other indian, you're the only one left.

Just admit the Arjun tank is the best tank there is. Just admit the IA generals were all corrupt when they chose the T-90.

Nothing short of saying Arjun is the best would let you off the hook.

The actual developers of weapons systems in India will tell you to your face that they are nowhere near the west, but the people you are discussing with have probably never even seen a defense scientist let alone talk about defense related matters beyond some newspaper articles.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Enough of this emotional drama ..

Any further post towards personal attacks or nonsense will be deleted..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Regarding Armour of Arjun and test so does round names used on it are posted in early of this thread..

1. One should give a proper read before getting to quick conclusions

2. When mentioning on any kind of diagram do explain what is assumed and chances of error this will not lead to unnecessary argument in confusion

3. If you dont know about something, ask questions ..

4. If you have a claim and asked for proof, One must provide link, article or logic if not, better not post..

5. Respect fellow forum members they will respect you back..


As you were ..

 

[ersakthivel]

Every platform enters the service with some teething trouble.It can not be used to beat it down.Only by putting them into operation can you evolve it further.
The discussions between the generals exactly shows that.Without putting ARJUN into service in large numbers and letting the full 100 percent manufacture of all the parts and development of better APFDS rounds to happen ,if we stall it by cutting down the orders we will be the first serial prototype manufacturers of the world.
When prithvi entered into service it was a liquid fuel missile with less accuracy now it has led DRDO to anti ballistic missile tech level.

Same goes for arjun too.it is a chicken and egg problem.

 

[Dejawolf]

You are refusing to acknowledge your own admission that this inside distance cannot be more than 800 mm.i will post your quote to support it.

GO TO THE POST NUMBER -932 POSTED BY YOU WHEN YOU ACCEPTED THIS LENGTH AS 700 MM, WHEN I SAID IT WAS 600 TO 800 MM.

NOW YOU ARE SAYING 1400 MM INSTEAD OF YOUR OWN ADMISSION OF 700 MM IN POST NUMBER-932.

only after your acceptance that i posted my calculation

post 932? oh i'm sorry, you must have misunderstood. let me clarify:

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The hatch size 53cm or little more..

 

[ersakthivel]

post 932? oh i'm sorry, you must have misunderstood. let me clarify:

What is the space (length in mm) occupied by the head of the man?

200 mm at the most.The head occupies 3 cm space on the screen.

The total length of the full red line from the back of the chair to red box (vision blocker I suppose )measured by scale on the screen is exactly 15 cms.

SO 15/3=5X200 mm=1000 mm is the actual length is my guess.Am I right?

 

[Dejawolf]

What is the space (in mm) occupied by the head of the man?

which space.

 

[militarysta]

Maybe this would help:




Kunal about year ago give in other topic gun mantled mask width. If this one mesurment is correct then rest is quite simple.
IMPORTANT - eacht mesurment based on photo have some error Her it shoud be less then 3%.

 

[DivineHeretic]

It is certainly true that the Arjun both in its mk1 & mkii form might not be able to stand toe to toe with the Lecrec and the Challengers, simply because the manufactures have a century of experience in designing and deploying tanks, not to mention that they are were until recently backed up by unimaginable funds to fend off the Soviet threat.
But we should understand that in the context of Indo-Pak conflict these monsters are more than capable of taking anything the pak armor can throw at them. The Kanchan armor od the arjun mk1 is known to have susrvived a point blank hit from the T72 without any significant damage, which btw has a 120mm main, gun, so the claims of its armor protection is not exactly out of a fanboys' fantasy. Now with the mkii, with its 93 upgrades, particularly the APS systems, it should be a formiddable tank.

 

[methos]

Dont relate your hosh-posh with science, You dont have a Clue, dont you ?, So does about your idea on material, you are not specific about anything in you post, You have no idea about anything on Kanchan do you ?

Material alone does not decide the outcome, But how and what manner they are arranged in..

He bases his estimations on Paul Lakowskis works, which are based on sciene papers from international symposium, science journals and technical literature. He provides references to the used sources and everyone willing to invest a few bucks can buy them. This is not "hosh-posh with science".
I personally disagree with many of his armour estimates because there are various indicators showing that he used faulty thickness values and armour layouts for the Western tanks. However wasn't it you who posted the following image last time I asked about Kanchan?

Paul L.'s Armor Basics exactly assume that modern composite armour would look like this and his estimates are working for such a armour layout. Nothing is wrong with them, if the armour - as claimed by your mates and you - looks like in this image.

 

[militarysta]

T72 without any significant damage, which btw has a 120mm main, gun, so the claims of its armor protection is not exactly out of a fanboys' fantasy. Now with the mkii, with its 93 upgrades, particularly the APS systems, it should be a formiddable tank.

125mm not 120 it first.

Second -dear Indiand friends, please try to understand that in those Kanchan test there was used obsolate ammo. 3BM42 is old, and now -obsolate, the same Indian 120mm rifted AFPSDS -to shor penetrator, to small L ratio, not even mentioned others factors. New israeli CL Mk.2 125mm is not very good too. In fact all ammo tested against Arjun and Kanchan armour was on 1980-1985 level. It's ~25-30 years old.
Just compare 3BM42 and Israeli (as PRONIT here) whit more modern amo:

And Pak. T-80UD (Ob.478BE) is very vell potected tank. For the other hand - there is no infos about good ammo on pak. side. Chineese 3BM42 clones and Israeli clones are not realy better then orginal rounds are. So lucky for Ajrun - there is some ballance.
But in turret case - T-80UD is muchr better protected then Arjun :-/

 

[Dejawolf]

What is the space (length in mm) occupied by the head of the man?

200 mm at the most.The length of the red line you marked between the arrow comes to 700 mm if we measure it by scale.

His head measures 300 mm.SO if we divide 700/300=2.3 X his head length.SO 2.3X200mm=520mm.

The other part of the line measures 800 mm on screen.15 percent more.SO if we convert it accordingly it is equal to 590 mm.

So the total length comes to around 1100 mm if we accept this calculation.IS it correct?

it's a lot closer. i measured my own head length, and it was 25cm.
using this as basis, i measured the pixels, and converted to cm by taking the ratio.

so around 650mm between the 2 first red lines.