Arjun vs T90 MBT

[ersakthivel]

well, to the back of the cupola ring yes, correct. 2500mm.


incorrect, it's 750mm

incorrect it's ~1400mm. you cannot fit 2 people within 60cm of space.

Your whole calculation is based on the fact that the man measures well below the 500 mm dia from shoulder to shoulder.
Such a man will measure only about 200 mm from front to back(chest cross section)
So there is enough space to fit only two men. So 2x200=400 mm.+ the space occupied by the man another 200 mm. SO it comes to 600 mm.
Now if you say it is 1400 mm, it means there is space enough to fit 6 men facing the turrret in that place is that possible?

2500-(500+600) = 1400mm but i digress

correct formula:
2500-(1400+750) = 350

If you dispute this ,
then you are refuting your own assumption ,
that the crew hole is only 500 mm wide(which I suspect is wrong as well, accepted it anyway for the sake of debate ) becomes wrong and all other dimensions you compare it with also become wrong.

 

[ersakthivel]

just give it up, jesus ----ing Christ...

going by your measure of 2500mm to the back of TC hatch, i put this into the factory picture of the arjun:

AGAIN confirming my estimates.
and you cannot fit 2 people into a space of 600mm,

So this black and white traffic marker is the international scale of measurements perhaps?


This is what a scaled drawing looks like,

Just see the side ways profile of frontal armor block which measures no more than 500 mm.

just look at the first small hook behind the mantlet on the turret top photo.
This hook is situated at around 500 mm from the turret front In the drawing with scale.
The cutaway for sight ends near the hook.
So the cut away cannot measure more than 500 mm.Certainly not 700mm.

 

[pmaitra]

@ersakthivel, mate, I think the diameter of the crew-hatch hole should be in the vicinity of half a metre.

 

[Dejawolf]

final estimate of turret front.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@Dejawolf, There are no indications about Arjun Kanchan Armour thickness vs heat or KE except wild assumptions based on some other tank +20 years back, I am not sure how you are indicating Armour resistance vs heat and KE ..

This kind of information are opsec..

 

[ersakthivel]

@ersakthivel, mate, I think the diameter of the crew-hatch hole should be in the vicinity of half a metre.

Then how can deja wolf say he needs 1400 mm space to fit two men
when one man measures only 500 mm shoulder to shoulder (for him to get into the hole)in sideways needs 700 mm from belly to butt?

 

[ersakthivel]

The first hook behind the gun mantlet determines the length of cut away in the above scaled drawing.No more than 600 mm max.

the space between the red square box drawn and the crew seat back in the photo inside(space just enough for 3 men to be jammed together facing front)t is no more than 750 mm max.

if the man extends his arm he can touch the red box in the drawing then how can it be 1.5 meters.No moe than 700 mm at the most,who will place a seat from where it is not possible to reach the guage?

If ne stretches his arm he can reach the guage.so no way it can be 1500 mm .
So if you add 750+600=1300.


Assuimng (clarification needed)the seat on which the man sits has it's back exactly below the crew hatch cover,
the position of the seat is 2500 mm behind the turret front as per scaled drawing.
So2500-1350=1150 mm is my guess.Right or wrong PMAITRA? & KUNAL.

If the seat back goes further behind the hatch cover this 1150 mm can only increase.

 

[ersakthivel]

final estimate of turret front.

At last some dimensions however faulty they may be.

 

[Dejawolf]

The first hook behind the gun mantlet determines the length of cut away in the above scaled drawing.No more than 600 mm max.

the space between the red square box drawn and the crew seat back in the photo inside(space just enough for 3 men to be jammed together facing front)t is no more than 750 mm max.
So if you add 750+600=1300.
Assuimng (clarification needed)the seat on which the man sits has it's back exactly below the crew hatch cover,
the position of the seat is 2500 mm behind the turret front as per scaled drawing.
So2500-1350=1150 mm is my guess.Right or wrong PMAITRA? & KUNAL.

If the seat back goes further behind the hatch cover this 1150 mm can only increase.

i measured my chair, and foot. 40+15 = 55cm
add 10cm for seat back, then another 55cm = 120cm.

 

[Dejawolf]

At last some dimensions however faulty they may be.Worthless assumptions and blunder of drawings.

i've posted them twice already. this time i put them on a picture.

 

[Dejawolf]

seat back of TC:

red line marks the "hatch hole".

 

[ersakthivel]

i measured my chair, and foot. 40+15 = 55cm
add 10cm for seat back, then another 55cm = 120cm.

How do you fix the position of the seat inside ARJUN HUll?

 

[Dejawolf]

How do you fix the position of the seat inside ARJUN HUll?

i'm getting tired of making images, and this is taking me a LOT of time... apparently you need everything in with a silver teaspoon.

i've proved you wrong so many times it's not even funny anymore. i've proved you wrong with pictures, i've proved you wrong with numbers, i've proved you wrong by using your own goddamned estimates and measures, i've proved you wrong with help from others, i've even tried to be reasonable...
but you're just consistently wrong wrong wrong.
GIVE. UP. you lost on post #974, and now you're just stalling for time.

 

[Dejawolf]

@Dejawolf, There are no indications about Arjun Kanchan Armour thickness vs heat or KE except wild assumptions based on some other tank +20 years back, I am not sure how you are indicating Armour resistance vs heat and KE ..

with SCIENCE. and by reading Armour basics by Paul lakowski, as well as talking to him, reading material science journals, material science textbooks, etc.
There may be many different configurations, but the materials are known, they have specific resistance against HEAT or KE, and there's only 1 optimal configuration. i'm basing my TE estimates of kanchan on the best possible configuration of these elements. however, if DU or tungsten is added into the mix, these values will increase fairly rapidly. having a tungsten or DU backing plate is much better than having an RHA backing plate.
ceramics are hard but brittle. putting ceramics into the array and giving them a metal backing is a bit like face-hardening steel. you have a very hard surface with a more ductile backing.the ductile backing keeps the ceramics from shattering. a denser backing means less deformation, and therefore more effective ceramics.

 

[Dejawolf]

So this black and white traffic marker is the international scale of measurements perhaps?

yes, it is called the metric system.

 

[Dejawolf]

since the first picture with the "traffic marker" didn't convince:

sight backing lines up with attachment for handrail.
MEASURE IT. 750mm, just as the traffic marker said, just as i measured on my 3d model, and just as i measured using your funky "hatch hole diameter" method.
so you're wrong again, even to the point of contradicting yourself.

 

[p2prada]

300mm of frontal armor on the turret? You might as well say that we copied the tank from a WWII design. Anyway where do you think the $8-9 million of the tank cost goes to? The toilet?

It is a 80s design which means technology from anywhere between 60s and 80s. It is currently an early cold war design.

just give it up, jesus ----ing Christ...

going by your measure of 2500mm to the back of TC hatch, i put this into the factory picture of the arjun:

AGAIN confirming my estimates.
and you cannot fit 2 people into a space of 600mm,

You are trying too hard. He won't understand and you are only wasting time.

Can we move forward?

 

[ersakthivel]

i'm getting tired of making images, and this is taking me a LOT of time... apparently you need everything in with a silver teaspoon.

i've proved you wrong so many times it's not even funny anymore. i've proved you wrong with pictures, i've proved you wrong with numbers, i've proved you wrong by using your own goddamned estimates and measures, i've proved you wrong with help from others, i've even tried to be reasonable...
but you're just consistently wrong wrong wrong.
GIVE. UP. you lost on post #974, and now you're just stalling for time.

Well I have given up a long time back and it was you who refused to accept the distance between the hook and the mantle as the length of turret cut away section meant for the sight which will come around 600 mm.(You are insisting it is 1.5 times larger at 750mm)
and
insisting every indian tank man has a belly protrusion of 470 mm to justify your 1400 mm claim.
If it is so they are unfit to army.what surprises me is you once accepted it as 800 mm for three men and strangely fixed 1450 mm all of a sudden.
Mine is at the most 3x200 mm=600 mm.
even if I conced another 200 mm for any errors it comes to 800 mm at the most.

SO my assumption is----------- 2500mm-(600 mm +800mm)=1100 mm remaining space for armor.
Your claim is -----------------------2500 mm-(750mm+1450 mm)=350 mm for remaining space for armor.
All these yellow ,blue lines and red lines without any authentic relation to each other means not much to me.Free hand drawing type assumption without rational cross checking is some thing unacceptable .

SO don't bother to convince me.From now on I won't bother to counter you.You can discuss this stuff with other indians here.

 

[Dejawolf]

insisting every indian tank man has a belly protrusion of 470 mm to justify your 1400 mm claim.

the belly protrusion is called legs and knees. are you assuming soldiers stand inside the arjun turret?

All these yellow ,blue lines and red lines without any authentic relation to each other means not much to me.Free hand drawing type assumption without rational cross checking is some thing unacceptable .

it's a matter of comparing and fitting shapes like this.

but apparently you're trying to convince me that the square peg goes in the round hole.

SO don't bother to convince me.From now on I won't bother to counter you.You can discuss this stuff with other indians here.

i've convinced pretty much every other indian, you're the only one left.

 

[ersakthivel]

Does change things when real facts are brought out, doesn't it?

Nothing really changes.The DRDO has just finished the development of the tank and won a hard fought acceptance from ARmy indicating it's just now proven tech maturity.Munition development will come only later if large orders are placed for arjun.Who will develop kick ass munition for a tank that is yet to be given orders in more numbers than 250?With whom will DRDO partner for such cottage industry level project especially when the r&D effort is to be world class.

The gentleman BIKRAMJHIT Singh who said the arjun apfsd round has lesser penetration repeatedly stressed this point through out his interview.
Every one agreed it was a collective failure on the part of MOD and ARMy and DRDO ,because GSQR was changed three times.The general MEHTHA clearly said that no one will cope with that if GSQR is changed 3 times during development.Even the americans are having german guns on their tank, british are mulling to switch over to german gun for NATO round commonality.

Just goes to show how difficult the development of FCS and GUn tech is,here if GSQR is changed three times and orders were not given for more than 250 pieces how will development take place?
you should listen to the israeli effort with merkava.it is a unique tank in the world suited to Israeli conditions.Both the developer and user showed commitments from the inception.
Another clear insight from the interview is there is no original strategy brain stroming culture in IA regarding tank war fare.that is the reason when one gentle man said heavy tank was not suited here.Another BIKRAMJHIT Singh who said how come all developed countries are using heavy tanks in their terrain and various other developing country terrain.

it is a surprise that this level of difference of opinion is there at such top level guys.The reason we just had what the russians had to offer and moulded our strategies as per the T series compatiability.

When pakistan conducted ABRAMS trials a heavier protection GSQR was issues which resulted in heavier tank.Now how surprisingly all the three gentle man said we need a lighter tank under 50 ton as FMBT.And even the anchor expressed horror if the 40 year development of arjun will go as waste.

there were talk in some technical forums that Indian army's 50-55 ton FMBT is just a hobby horse ridding by people who just dont have any understanding of the ways of the modern MBT world which require more and more space power and volume for newer systems.There was some inside CVRDE talk with some smug confidence that no such 50 ton FMBT will arrive at DGMF door steps with the protection level demanded by it.

How surprisingly this came true later ,when the IA quietly accepted that ARJUN will be the FMBT candidate.WHy can india achieve what USA and GERMANY cannot achieve.With ever increasing penetrating rounds and deadly ATGMs , how can you make a lighter FMBT?



Now after much evaluation