Arjun vs T90 MBT

[Damian]

Are you drunk ?

? :shocked:

SO all the fortifications, light vehicles and pretty much any enemy target has spaced armor.Can you enlighten us which authoritative book that says Al Zarrar has spaced armor? OHHHH, books are only needed when it is convenient to ram your views, not needed when the other guy asks a question.

Don't be so cocky and quick. Books are not needed here because real life gives us photos of the real stuff.

http://pic.itiexue.net/pics/2009_6_3_88855_9388855.jpg

Burned Al Zarrar, we can see that turret have a different shape than standard T-54/55.

But photo of other tank with front plate removed reveals a T-54/55 cast turret underneath.

Conclusion is simple, a spaced armor, simple protection and not effective against shaped charges, but very effective against HESH.

It is possible that such protection was added for some Al Zarrar tanks intentionally, to gave them cheap protection against HESH ammunition.

As for protection of light weight platforms or structures, there is no problem to place such simple protection against HESH on them.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Its a T-59 with big empty boxes around with era tiles over..

It is totally spaced Armour which was PAM were putting as composite Armour..

SO all the fortifications, light vehicles and pretty much any enemy target has spaced armor.Can you enlighten us which authoritative book that says Al Zarrar has spaced armor?

 

[ersakthivel]

? :shocked:



Don't be so cocky and quick.

http://pic.itiexue.net/pics/2009_6_3_88855_9388855.jpg

Burned Al Zarrar, we can see that turret have a different shape than standard T-54/55.

But photo of other tank with front plate deattached reveals a T-54/55 cast turret underneath.

Conclusion is simple, a spaced armor, simple protection and not effective against shaped charges, but very effective against HESH.

It is possible that such protection was added for some Al Zarrar tanks intentionally, to gave them cheap protection against HESH ammunition.

There are so many vehicles and APCs and all kinds of stuffs that dont have spaced armor in subcontinent.If arjun imposes a cost on pakistan to convert all of them to spaced armor it itself will be a huge cost penalty to impose on PAK.
I asked for a book as you were repeating all the stuff on the net is bogus and books are the only conclusive source.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Then after initial casualties, your enemy will improve... unless of course you underestimate them... but this is a first step to hell.

Use AP then ..

And how much such fuze costs? 10$? 50$? be it even 100$, a 3 times more is not that much.

I find it a lot..

The problem is that even Pakistans Al Zarrar tanks have something that looks like spaced armor on some variants which means HESH is not effective anymore, other Al Zarrar tanks have ERA and other additional protection, and Al Zarrar is nothing more than T-54/55 and ZTZ-59/69 improvement, a very old tank in it's essence.

You can't just look in the past all the way and say "it worked then, it will work now and in future".

What about roof top and tin bucket that standing out ?

 

[kshkumsin]

? :shocked:



Don't be so cocky and quick. Books are not needed here because real life gives us photos of the real stuff.

http://pic.itiexue.net/pics/2009_6_3_88855_9388855.jpg

Burned Al Zarrar, we can see that turret have a different shape than standard T-54/55.

But photo of other tank with front plate removed reveals a T-54/55 cast turret underneath.

Conclusion is simple, a spaced armor, simple protection and not effective against shaped charges, but very effective against HESH.

It is possible that such protection was added for some Al Zarrar tanks intentionally, to gave them cheap protection against HESH ammunition.

As for protection of light weight platforms or structures, there is no problem to place such simple protection against HESH on them.

hahahahahha i didn't knew that al zarrar(a so called modern tank ) is so capablestop this bulls**t damian

 

[Damian]

i asked for a book as you were repeating all the stuff on the net is bogus and books are the only conclusive source.

Books are better written source than internet sites. However photos are even better material, mostly because they directly show the truth.

Use AP then ..

Oh yeah, APFSDS is not a cheap thing, and wasting ammunition designed primary to defeat heavy armoed targets for tin cans... it is not very smart. It is better to have programmable HE or at least HEAT.

But this makes either way, HESH useless.

I find it a lot..

Seriously? For one the better financed militaries?

What about roof top and tin bucket that standing out ?

It is not protected but hiting it would be a serious challenge. Not immposible though.

hahahahahha i didn't knew that al zarrar(a so called modern tank ) is so capablestop this bulls**t damian

"hahahahaha" said by person that have nothing valuable to add, and laughs only because is incapable to comprehend even the simpliest things...

 

[ersakthivel]

Well it seems that during your education, nobody teached you, so I need to.

Books are better written source than internet sites. However photos are even better material, mostly because they directly show the truth.


Oh yeah, APFSDS is not a cheap thing, and wasting ammunition designed primary to defeat heavy armoed targets for tin cans... it is not very smart. It is better to have programmable HE or at least HEAT.

But this makes either way, HESH useless.



Seriously? For one the better financed militaries?



It is not protected but hiting it would be a serious challenge. Not immposible though.



"hahahahaha" said by person that have nothing valuable to add, and laughs only because is incapable to comprehend even the simpliest things... shame on you because this is a behaviour good for poorly educated peasant.

Ofcourse photos are better materials thats why you are fooling the forum members with a photo of so called ARJUn from the 1990s during the late Pm NARASHIMA RAO's time as the newest production variant.


the following is the sample of your racist comments on ARJUn from a forum
http://208.84.116.223/forums/index.php?showtopic=15763&st=160

My question is, how the hell nation that don't have a clue how to properly design main battle tank because they don't have any true experience in this, were abale to design a better tank than a nation with huge experience in this? How this is possible? How Indians were abale to design "superior" Kanchan armor even if Russians have much greater experience with multilayer laminate armors + heavy ERA? As I said, Kanchan is probably on level of mid to late 80's multilayer laminate armors so it is far behind current armor designs from both Russia/Ukraine or NATO.

When another member called NITIN in the same tried to counter you this was your BOOK based response.

Agree, they are manipulating facts, and this is evident in anything they say.

When countered why rifled gun was there THIS WAS YOUR RESPONSE BASED ON DEEPLY RESEARCHED BOOKS.

They went with rifled gun because of several reasons, first they did not have access to 120mm smoothbore gun technology, it seems that nobody with such technology wanted to sold them such guns and know how, and IA wanted HESH ammunition.

wHEN SOMEONE CALLED Przezdzieblo COUNTERED YOU ,THIS WAS YOUR TYPICAL RESPONSE.

Sorry Przezdzieblo, I said everything I know.

You know nothing about arjun then and now and forever in future.
i know only this kind of discussion will follow ,if you enter a debate with such ideals
With such profound unprejudiced logical reasoning you are using all available debating skills to suit your agenda.

 

[Dejawolf]

What can one do with a diagram without dimensions and all placement of stuff based on dubiuos assumption?
Any photo proof for the man sitting directly below the crew hatch?
What are the grey color square blocks behind the man on the top in ARJUN
and why they are not there for LEO?
The ammo storage tube looks too long as well.Any guess on their dimensions?

the grey blocks? i dunno, Fire control computer, turret drive stuff, APU, radios etc.
ammo storage tubes are 115cm long, which is probably wrong. i've tweaked them to 100cm instead to conform more with length of Arjun ammo.
also tweaked sight assembly slightly, so bolts in the line drawing align properly with the 3d model. armour behind sight is now 330mm thick.



the reason the grey blocks are not in the leo is because i didn't add them. but on the real vehicle the hydraulic pump is located in the elongated compartment behind the TC,
and the ballistic computer is in the center rear compartment.

this image has black boxes with 10cm increments

 

[Damian]

Ofcourse photos are better materials thats why you are fooling the forum members with a photo of so called ARJUn from the 1990s during the late Pm NARASHIMA RAO's time as the newest production variant.

The newest production variant didn't changed much.

And in the place from where I am people sighting tarrot card reading based reasoning of real life experience ,when asked to explain a physical phenomenon wont be allowed in the university campus at all.

Cool... and?

You can be the best footballer of POLAND for your dodging skills alone.

Wow, this have so much the subject of this thread.

the following is the sample of your racist comments on ARJUn from a forum
http://208.84.116.223/forums/index.p...c=15763&st=160

My question is, how the hell nation that don't have a clue how to properly design main battle tank because they don't have any true experience in this, were abale to design a better tank than a nation with huge experience in this? How this is possible? How Indians were abale to design "superior" Kanchan armor even if Russians have much greater experience with multilayer laminate armors + heavy ERA? As I said, Kanchan is probably on level of mid to late 80's multilayer laminate armors so it is far behind current armor designs from both Russia/Ukraine or NATO.

i know only this kind of discussion will follow ,if you enter a debate with such ideals
With such profound unprejudiced logical reasoning you are using all available debating skills to suit your agenda.

This is rascism? Do you even know the definition of rascism?

I can say that my country do not have any experiences with designing a nuclear submarine, you think that we think we are able to design such submarine as decent, reliable design? If you would tell such thing to any Polish man, he would look at you as some crazy man. We are very reasonable nation when it comes to such things.

But this is difference between me and you, I am realist, you like fantasy.

 

[ersakthivel]

the grey blocks? i dunno, Fire control computer, turret drive stuff, APU, radios etc.
ammo storage tubes are 115cm long, which is probably wrong. i've tweaked them to 100cm instead to conform more with length of Arjun ammo.
also tweaked sight assembly slightly, so bolts in the line drawing align properly with the 3d model. armour behind sight is now 330mm thick.
existent drawing skills.


the reason the grey blocks are not in the leo is because i didn't add them. but on the real vehicle the hydraulic pump is located in the elongated compartment behind the TC,
and the ballistic computer is in the center rear compartment.

this image has black boxes with 10cm increments

From the image above the back of the wedge shaped hole for the sight is at least 3 to 4 (lets take 3.5 as a mean)crew hatch length away from the back of the seat the man was supposed to be sitting(provided your assumption that crew hatch is right over the seat, which I doubt very much without any authentic source, any way some one like kunal can easily resolve this matter)

One crew hatch hole length is approximately 700 mm minimum for a well built man to enter I suppose.

So the total distance is 2400 mm.you deduct the 800 mm empty space you yourself admitted from your post. It leaves a space of 1600 mm for all kinds of placements like some small amount of space for instruments an d so on so reduce 400 mm for them(approximate, need heavy clarifications).

So in my very very humble opinion a space of 1200 mm is available for COMPOSITE ARMOR. am i RIGHT OR WRONG?

Do you know what is the level of protection if composite armor is employed in the space of 1200 mm.

THIS IS HOW WE GUYS with some very very miniscule experience in just one year of engineering drawing calculate stuf like dimensionf. It is dead accurate.
Why I waited tilll now was how far you would drag this?

I know damian would follow you like a blind man with the kind of prejudice he exhibits on arjun all over the net.

Now it is upto both of you the great tank experts to question these ASSUMPTIONS and expose me as an imbecile, nationalistic tripe.

 

[methos]

@Dejawolf

You are doing a really good job imo...

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Oh yeah, APFSDS is not a cheap thing,

So does programmable HE ammo..

Seriously? For one the better financed militaries?

Financed yes, every branch all the time, No..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Guys be technical..

Counter points, All kind of unnecessary words will be removed from posts..

 

[ersakthivel]

@Dejawolf

You are doing a really good job imo...

Thanks for the illustration.

IM VERY VERY VERY HUMBLE OPINION the proportion of the drawing on the right produced by DEJAWOLF is all wrong.
Didn't you see it by your own markings of the hole for crew hatch?

you have marked it 3 times between the seat for the crew and the back end of the wedge shaped hole for the gunners sight in the real turret top picture,
On the wrongly proportioned picture produced by DEJAWOLF ,you have marked it 3 times between the seat for the crew and the Front end of the wedge shaped hole gunners sight.

I am referring to the inner most diameter of the entry hole as 700 mm. If you take the outer most dia of crew hole as you mark in the picture,

it will be about 900 mm.So 3x900 mm comes to 2700 mm deduct the slight over lap on the wedge shaped hole for the sight from it.
And it will roughly come to the same 2400mm.


If there is any doubt about the 700 mm dia for the inner entry hole please measure the width at the shoulder of any of your well built friend.
I just don't understand why are people disputing such a simple thing visible to naked eye?

 

[militarysta]

and for what it's worth, leopard 2A4

@Dejawolf
I have question about Leopard-2A4. Backplate is 80-90mm thick -isn't it? Can you confirmed those conjecture?

since that this posts:
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/land-forces/208-main-battle-tanks-armour-technology-306.html
im trying to make Leopard-2 (erly) armour modell. Would you be so kind and just take a look on it?
Any help will be appreciated.

 

[Dejawolf]

From the image above the back of the wedge shaped hole for the sight is at least 3 to 4 (lets take 3.5 as a mean)crew hatch length away from the back of the seat the man was supposed to be sitting(provided your assumption that crew hatch is right over the seat, which I doubt very much without any authentic source, any way some one like kunal can easily resolve this matter)

One crew hatch hole length is approximately 700 mm minimum for a well built man to enter I suppose.

So the total distance is 2400 mm.you deduct the 800 mm empty space you yourself admitted from your post. It leaves a space of 1600 mm for all kinds of placements like some small amount of space for instruments an d so on so reduce 400 mm for them(approximate, need heavy clarifications).

So in my very very humble opinion a space of 1200 mm is available for COMPOSITE ARMOR. am i RIGHT OR WRONG?

Do you know what is the level of protection if composite armor is employed in the space of 1200 mm.

THIS IS HOW WE GUYS with some very very miniscule experience in just one year of engineering drawing calculate stuf like dimensionf. It is dead accurate.
Why I waited tilll now was how far you would drag this?

I know damian would follow you like a blind man with the kind of prejudice he exhibits on arjun all over the net.

Now it is upto both of you the great tank experts to question these ASSUMPTIONS and expose me as an imbecile, nationalistic tripe.

yes, from the above picture, it is almost exactly 3.5 "crew hatch holes" from the ledge of the TC's hatch hole to the back where the GPS assembly starts.

however "crew hatch holes" are usually around 45-50cm in diameter,(it is 50cm on the leopard2) the 700mm figure is from one edge of the cupola periscope assembly to another, so that would be the diameter of the protective cupola ring assembly on top.
also, you forgot to take into account slope.

going by a figure of 50cm diameter for the crew hatch hole, measured on the picture, that's about 88 pixels. pixel distance from back of GPS assembly to front of vision block with slope accounted for is about 64 pixels.
so ratio between hatch hole and space between GPS/gnrvb would be
64/88 = ~0.727
0.727*50 = 36.4cm

 

[sayareakd]

GPS assembly ??

 

[ersakthivel]

yes, from the above picture, it is almost exactly 3.5 "crew hatch holes" from the ledge of the TC's hatch hole to the back where the GPS assembly starts.

however "crew hatch holes" are usually around 45-50cm in diameter,(it is 50cm on the leopard2) the 700mm figure is from one edge of the cupola periscope assembly to another, so that would be the diameter of the protective cupola ring assembly on top.
also, you forgot to take into account slope.

going by a figure of 50cm diameter for the crew hatch hole, measured on the picture, that's about 88 pixels. pixel distance from back of GPS assembly to front of vision block with slope accounted for is about 64 pixels.
so ratio between hatch hole and space between GPS/gnrvb would be
64/88 = ~0.727
0.727*50 = 36.4cm

If we take crew hatch is entry is 500 mm as per your suggestion,

The total turret length comes around 7 crew holes length.So 7X50 cm =3.5 meter add another crew hole length for error it is 4 meter.
The total length of arjun is exactly about twice the length of the turrret. So 2X4m =8 meter.
Do you know what is the total length of arjun tank ?
It is 10.68 meters.
So where is the remaining 2.68 meters?

IF we go by the reverse direction deducting stuff from the total length of the tank like assumption below,
If you follow that you can once again arrive at the same conclusion for arjun's frontal armor thickness behind the gunner's sight


So total length of arjun is 10.68 meters.
turret must be about 5.35 meters is my idea.
5.35/2=2.67-30 cm (for the wege shaped cut on the turret for the gunner's sight) meters is equal to my assumption of 2400 mm


as I wrote in post number-952 in the same page..

So the total distance is 2400 mm.you deduct the 800 mm empty space you yourself admitted from your post. It leaves a space of 1600 mm for all kinds of placements like some small amount of space for instruments an d so on so reduce 400 mm for them(approximate, need heavy clarifications).

So in my very very humble opinion a space of 1200 mm is available for COMPOSITE ARMOR. am i RIGHT OR WRONG?

Do you know what is the level of protection if composite armor is employed in the space of 1200 mm.

So is that OKAY with you?

 

[ersakthivel]

if we take into account your assertion regarding 500 mm (50 cm width for leo crew hatch)
The turret seems to be 7 crew holes length .So 7X50 cm=3.5 meter add another 50 cm for errors it comes to 4 meters.
The leopard too seems to have twice the length of it's turret as it's total length(much less than that is my assumption, but for argument's sake let it be)
So 2x4=8meters only.
But do you know the leopard's total length?
It is 9.97 meters,So where is the remaining 1.7 meter?
A beautiful image of leo below.If you remove the ERA tiles the length of the tank is almost twice that of turret, infact much less than that.

 

[ersakthivel]

So if this drawing of yours is right and your assumption of 500 mm for the crew hatch hole is right,
then
there is no place for more than 7 crew hole diameter space on arjun turret length.
So 7X50 cm=3.5 meter.Add another 50 cm for any error=4 meter length of turret.
Tank legth=2Xturret length=2x4 meters=8 meters.
but the actual tank length is 10.68 meters.
So what is right ? Your drawing or your dimensions?
Simply both ca not be right at the same time.One of them is wrong.