Arjun vs T90 MBT

[methos]

The turret seems to be 7 crew holes length .So 7X50 cm=3.5 meter add another 50 cm for errors it comes to 4 meters.
The leopard too seems to have twice the length of it's turret as it's total length(much less than that is my assumption, but for argument's sake let it be)
So 2x4=8meters only.
But do you know the leopard's total length?

The Leopard 2 hull is 7.57 m long. 4 m is a working figure for the turret depending on wether you in- or exclude the external storage at the turret rear. The rest of the size is gun overhang...

 

[Damian]

Do you consider the fact that lenght of 10.68 meters can be counted with additional fuel tanks?

There are different lenghts of vehicles provided, lenght of tank + gun, lenght of hull only, lenght of hull + additional attachements like fuel tanks, or other accesories.

 

[ersakthivel]

Do you consider the fact that lenght of 10.68 meters can be counted with additional fuel tanks?

There are different lenghts of vehicles provided, lenght of tank + gun, lenght of hull only, lenght of hull + additional attachements like fuel tanks, or other accesories.

An argument like this is no use in a factual debate.you can post details to the contrary if you have any thing in your hand contradicting the length of ARJUN tank.


Otherwise admit you were talking on ARJUN without even knowing anything about it.SINCE YOU WERE ENTHUSIASTICALLY SUPPORTING dejawolf's contention that ARJUN has next to nothing armor even on the front turret you are expected to have atleast some factual info on it.

Why were you so interested in supporting DEJAWOLF's drawings without knowing anything?
what is the body width of a well built solder?
Is he expected to enter in a tank in one piece or not?
How is he supposed to get inside a tank?By boring a hole through the sides?
SO IN YOUR LEARNED ESTIMATE WHAT SHOULD BE THE CREW HATCH DIA OF LEOPARD OR ARJUN?

So you don't know what is the actual length of ARJUN is?Generally what do they describe as tank length according to the books?How much does a fuel tank add or subtract from a tank length?

But since you have many authentic books, what do they say about the length of LEOPARD 2 in sevice, with fuel tank, without accessories or with accessories?

Since you are a defense professional what is the crew hatch hole of some major tanks in service?
Ever been inside a tank?Then you should have known.

 

[ersakthivel]

The Leopard 2 hull is 7.57 m long. 4 m is a working figure for the turret depending on wether you in- or exclude the external storage at the turret rear. The rest of the size is gun overhang...

Any source?
Please give a factual break up of the
1. crew hole dia of leopard,
2.How many crew hole length can be measured on leopard in the way you put 3 crew hatches on arjun's turret,
3.SO what could be the length of the turret?
4.What is the length of hull in proprotion to the turret?(X*turret length=tank length,give us the value of X)

5.Whether DEJAWOLF's crew hole dia of 40 to 50 cm fit into this calculation?

Don't you know any drawing without proper dimensions is meaning less?
A drawing without dimension is not accepted even in the beginner level engineering drawing classes in engineering colleges.
Here drawings are posted without the basic idea of what is the total length of the tank by people claiming to be professionals that too for estimating the ARMOR WEAKNESS of a tank!!!!!!!!!!
Did any of them ever draw any engineering drawing?

 

[ersakthivel]

Why I am asking this detail is that it is common in the net for a 60 year old male to say I am 16 year old blonde and chat.So irrespective of who is a professional or not, authentic source based arguments can be accepted as final here.Otherwise you can always paraphase your argument by IMHO, AFAIK, so no one will take it as a gospel of truth and misinformed about a subject.

That is the basic NETIQUETE, I suppose.

let the discussion be fair based on valid debating points.No one loses money if he loses his arguments here, I suppose.
It is not such a life or death matter to lose arguments on the net.

 

[ersakthivel]

SO correct measurements will go a long way in clearing the doubts.

 

[pmaitra]

What is the body width of a well built soldier?

Well, the Soviet Army chose smaller men for their tank crew. The reason is that Soviet Tanks were not suitable for larger men. Even the average size of Indian soldiers would be a bit cosy inside Soviet tanks. However, taller and bigger men have used tiny little cars like the old VW Beetle and old Fiat 500, so I suppose from that point of view, making it difficult for tank crew to enter or exit a tank is not a great concern for some tank designers; while for some, it probably is. Personally, I prefer a bigger hatch for easy and quick escape in case of emergencies.

Ever been inside a tank?Then you should have known.

I have been inside a Vijayanta (Vicker Mk. I) tank. I was 10 years old then. One soldier grabbed me under my armpits and eased me into the tank. Even then, I felt kind of claustrophobic.

 

[pmaitra]

This should put everything objectively.

Now, notice that small cluster of instruments under the fuel tanks. Are they there only to hold the fuel tanks or do they perform some other action? I have a feeling, fuel tank or no fuel tank, the tank's length does not change.

Someone, please confirm or correct me.

 

[Dejawolf]

If we take crew hatch is entry is 500 mm as per your suggestion,

The total turret length comes around 7 crew holes length.So 7X50 cm =3.5 meter add another crew hole length for error it is 4 meter.
The total length of arjun is exactly about twice the length of the turrret. So 2X4m =8 meter.
Do you know what is the total length of arjun tank ?
It is 10.68 meters.
So where is the remaining 2.68 meters?

the picture Pmaitra posted says it all. it's taken from bharat rhakshak so 1068mm is length including gun and fuel tanks.

i measured turret length in the factory picture, and turret length comes to about 8 TC hatch holes, which is as you said 50x8 = 4 meters.
turret length of my 3d model is 4m, so it's pretty much dead on.

 

[ersakthivel]

the picture Pmaitra posted says it all. it's taken from bharat rhakshak so 1068mm is length including gun and fuel tanks.

i measured turret length in the factory picture, and turret length comes to about 8 TC hatch holes, which is as you said 50x8 = 4 meters.
turret length of my 3d model is 4m, so it's pretty much dead on.

the drawing given by PMAITRA fixes the turret length as 4.8 meters.

The opening cover for the crew hatch stands opened vertically at 2300 mm from from the back of the turret according to the scale provided by PMAITRA.

So my statement that the crew hatch and the driver seat below is at 2400(2500 mm if we go by PMAITRA's scale for the turret considering the total length of the turret as 4800mm) mm from the back of the wedge shaped cut out on the frontal turrret provided for sighting instrument even though the method I arrived at is wrong.

IMHO THE ASSUMPTION behind the bunch of following statements, I made in the previous post still holds good

From the image above the back of the wedge shaped hole for the sight is at least 3 to 4 (lets take 3.5 as a mean)crew hatch length away from the back of the seat the man was supposed to be sitting(provided your assumption that crew hatch is right over the seat, which I doubt very much without any authentic source, any way some one like kunal can easily resolve this matter)

One crew hatch hole length is approximately 700 mm minimum for a well built man to enter I suppose.

So the total distance is 2400 mm.you deduct the 800 mm empty space you yourself admitted from your post. It leaves a space of 1600 mm for all kinds of placements like some small amount of space for instruments an d so on so reduce 400 mm for them(approximate, need heavy clarifications).

So in my very very humble opinion a space of 1200 mm is available for COMPOSITE ARMOR. am i RIGHT OR WRONG?

Do you know what is the level of protection if composite armor is employed in the space of 1200 mm.

Am I right or not?

IF YOU THINK i AM RIGHT please fix the dimensions of your drawing below according to PMAITRA's drawing, and re arrange the position of the crew hatch according to the scale in PMAITRA's drawing.

 

[Dejawolf]

at the longest point of the front armour, at the tip where the turret meets the gun back to the gunners vision block, is 1000mm. at the thinnest point it's 700mm.
and at the weakspot it's ~320-34mm+400mm for sight. on the loaders side, LOS thickness is 800mm,
gunshield is 760mm

so for estimations:

front turret max length:
KE: 910mm
HEAT: 1190mm

front turret min length:
KE: 620mm
HEAT:755mm

front turret weakspot:
KE: 360mm
HEAT: 457mm

front turret loaders side:
KE: 735mm
HEAT:930mm

mantlet area:
KE: 650mm
HEAT: 700mm

 

[Dejawolf]

the drawing given by PMAITRA fixes the turret length as 4.8 meters.

4.8m yes, with turret box in rear.
however, the factory photo is without the box in the rear.

 

[p2prada]

FMBT to focus on weight reduction of battle tanks, says DRDO chief

FMBT to focus on weight reduction of battle tanks, says DRDO chief - Express India

 

[ersakthivel]

the drawing given by PMAITRA fixes the turret length as 4.8 meters.

The opening cover for the crew hatch stands opened vertically at 2300 mm from from the back of the turret according to the scale provided by PMAITRA.

So my statement that the crew hatch and the driver seat below is at 2400(2500 mm if we go by PMAITRA's scale for the turret considering the total length of the turret as 4800mm) mm from the back of the wedge shaped cut out on the frontal turrret provided for sighting instrument even though the method I arrived at is wrong.

IMHO THE ASSUMPTION behind the bunch of following statements, I made in the previous post still holds good



Am I right or not?

IF YOU THINK i AM RIGHT please fix the dimensions of your drawing below according to PMAITRA's drawing, and re arrange the position of the crew hatch according to the scale in PMAITRA's drawing.

There is no need for your 3 d drawings once PMAITRA has posted the drawing above.


Because
1.the distance from the frontal turret to crew seat is 2500 mm.
2.the cut away for sight is about 500 mm
3.the distance between the crew members seat to armor mounting on the front is about 600 mm

SO 2500-(500+600)=1300 mm


If we accept it as right rendering of arjun dimensions then my assumption that

So in my very very humble opinion a space of 1200 mm is available for COMPOSITE ARMOR

is factually correct.

Only thing needed to be clarified is the exact position of the seat of the crew member.

SO there is no need for further clarification in this matter .

In mk-2 this cut away for the sight in the turret front is going to be moved to the turret roof.
So it will automatically add another 500 mm to the existing 1300 mm space for armor.Mk-I too can have this in upgrade.

 

[ersakthivel]

The more we drag this stuff to eclipse all other issues, the debate loses focus on other important issues pertaining to arjun.

Other important aspects like power to weight ratio,ground pressure per square inch, accurate firing on the move and network centric capability ,safe placement of ammo,along with coping up with desert condition is needed to be discussed.

All of these were achieved in arjun as per the army requirement.

 

[ersakthivel]

Well ,it is time to move on to other topics rather than getting hung up on this issue ,which anyway is going to go away in mk-2

 

[Dejawolf]

There is no need for your 3 d drawings once PMAITRA has posted the drawing above.


Because
1.the distance from the frontal turret to crew seat is 2500 mm.

well, to the back of the cupola ring yes, correct. 2500mm.

2.the cut away for sight is about 500 mm

incorrect, it's 750mm

3.the distance between the crew members seat to armor mounting on the front is about 600 mm

incorrect it's ~1400mm. you cannot fit 2 people within 60cm of space.

SO 2500-(500+600)=1300 mm

2500-(500+600) = 1400mm but i digress

correct formula:
2500-(1400+750) = 350

 

[ersakthivel]

well, to the back of the cupola ring yes, correct. 2500mm.


incorrect, it's 750mm

incorrect it's ~1400mm

2500-(500+600) = 1400mm but i digress

correct formula:
2500-(1400+750) = 350

You stilll dont know where is the seat situated with respect to tC hole.
you haven't yet produced a single correct drawing with relevant dimensions which is your field of supposed to be your speciality.And moving the seat of the crew member front and back as you go on.
So I won't argue with your assumptions any more .
I have done the best possible estimation.
It is up to other members (not the guys with god knows what intentions ) to have their own judgement about this matter.

 

[DivineHeretic]

well, to the back of the cupola ring yes, correct. 2500mm.


incorrect, it's 750mm

incorrect it's ~1400mm. you cannot fit 2 people within 60cm of space.

2500-(500+600) = 1400mm but i digress

correct formula:
2500-(1400+750) = 350

300mm of frontal armor on the turret? You might as well say that we copied the tank from a WWII design. Anyway where do you think the $8-9 million of the tank cost goes to? The toilet?

 

[Dejawolf]

you haven't yet produced a single correct drawing with relevant dimensions which is your field of supposed to be your speciality.And moving the seat of the crew member front and back as you go on.
So I won't argue with your assumptions any more .
I have done the best possible estimation.
It is up to other members (not the guys with god knows what intentions ) to have their own judgement about this matter.

just give it up, jesus ----ing Christ...

going by your measure of 2500mm to the back of TC hatch, i put this into the factory picture of the arjun:

AGAIN confirming my estimates.
and you cannot fit 2 people into a space of 600mm,