Arjun vs T90 MBT

[Dejawolf]

he has not even take into consideration green length of tank gun.

seriously?

 

[Damian]

1. Yes Possible, But again its not the same with APC and IFV, Both have similar effect..

Nope Kunal, if you even place a simple spaced armor on APC or IFV, HESH won't be effective, a FV510 Warrior that had been uparmored with Burlington armor panels, was completely immune against HESH. Think about this.

2. The advantage of Programmable HE are many but HESH does what its made to do, Its effective against bunker and infantry fortifications so does Light vehicles same as Programmable HE at cheap..

But the world move on, unless of course the idea is that India will be allways behind, is this the general strategy of Indian goverment when it comes to Homeland Security?

3. The fuse is expensive..

How do you know this? I didn't found anywhere costs comparision between conventional and programmable fuze, and even if it is more expensive, the question is how much.

Cost might be in the end irrelevant.

4. Shock effect = Brain damage and internal organ failure

Well then soldiers that were not directly hit by projectiles or fragments, should die en masse, this however not happens.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Well you are so eager in proving yourself right that you cant see the obvious

your drawing is wrong go through this

This is LEO 2A5 gun mantel, Some idea about assembly..

-------------------------------------------------------------------

The space between both masks are more than what show here..

seriously?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Nope Kunal, if you even place a simple spaced armor on APC or IFV, HESH won't be effective, a FV510 Warrior that had been uparmored with Burlington armor panels, was completely immune against HESH. Think about this.

Are you " Listen to no body " mode ?, I have given specific vehicles used in the region its effective against them..

Homeland Security?

Yes & When demanded in form of GSQR ..

How do you know this? I didn't found anywhere costs comparision between conventional and programmable fuze, and even if it is more expensive, the question is how much.

I know this from AAA ammo, there are simple HE rounds with simple fuse and electronic radio fuse rounds which cost more..

Well then soldiers that were not directly hit by projectiles or fragments, should die en masse, this however not happens.

It happens and very disgusting..

 

[Damian]

http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfocus/feb02/images/mbt1.jpg

This does not represents how the gun is mounted in a tank, and does not have armored gun mantle maks/shield. As allways people that lack knowledge about tanks, seems to make wrong conclusions looking at drawing or photos... or get really easy confused by what they see.

Are you " Listen to no body " mode ?, I have given specific vehicles used in the region its effective against them..

No Kunal, I only show you example, that very quickly, everyone can make HESH ineffective. Understand this round was developed somewhere in the late 1940's, early 1950's it is archaic.

Yes & When demanded in form of GSQR ..

Then these requirements are damn strange if you ask me.

I know this from AAA ammo, there are simple HE rounds with simple fuse and electronic radio fuse rounds which cost more..

How much more?

It happens and very disgusting..

How many times it happens? How close soldier needs to be? You see not everything is so simple.

 

[ersakthivel]

http://www.answers.com/topic/smoothbore
As per this page the transition to smooth bore from rifled bore in advanced rifle program of US to fire Fletchlets was cancelled due to the RELIABILITY PROBLEM resulting from POOR TERMINAL BALLISTICS.So theory wise which is superior is amply bone out in this page.

Tanks moved to smooth bore only to fire APFSD rounds.ARJUn's rifled gun can fire it with as much muzzle velocity as LEO. In addition a HESH charge (which requires rifle bore) against light armored vehicles and concrete buildings can be fired for 8 kms accurately according to the site by challenger, retards saying this capability as obsolete are supposed to be more intelligent than british army I suppose.


http://www.answers.com/topic/arjun-mbt

All the trials and defects and the manner in which it was rectified on arjun is detailed in this page.That's why IAndian army indicated it will evolve arjun into FMBT.So called BOOK PEOPLE (who only believe books )can have a nice read.

Arjun armed with a 120 mm rifled gun, is capable of firing APFSDS (Kinetic Energy) rounds, HE, HEAT, High Explosive Squash Head (HESH) rounds at the rate of 6-8 rounds per minute and the Israeli developed semi-active laser guided LAHAT missile.


It's muzzle velocity of 1650 meter and above for APFSD rounds is closest to the production LEO models.So no lethality loss due to lesser muzzle velocity or accuracy.Future APFSD rounds will have even more lethality with arjun mk-2.

A new honeycomb design non-explosive and non-energetic reactive armor (NERA) armor is reportedly being tested on the Arjun.



So how does that make arjun rifled gun obsolete?




Challenger 2: Information from Answers.com

As per this site the rifled challenger 2 was ordered by british army after evaluation of leo and abrams.

Uniquely among NATO main battle tank armament, the L30A1 is rifled, because the British Army continues to place a premium on the use of high explosive squash head (HESH) rounds in addition to APFSDS armour-piercing rounds. HESH rounds have a longer range (up to 8 kilometres / 5 miles) than APFSDS, and are more effective against buildings and thin-skinned vehicles.

Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/challenger-2-tank#ixzz2H6vtar5V

unlike some all knowing tank experts BRITISH ARMY STILL DOESNOT CONSIDER HESH as obsolete.

the reason for the evaluation of smooth bore over the rifled is given as the closed production lines of rifled ammo in britan and for round commonality with NATO , not for any superiority of smooth bore as bragged here.

 

[sayareakd]

seriously?

well i am not very good at paint drawing, but this might show what i was saying

The space between both masks are more than what show here..

yeah kunal sir is right this is what i was talking about. You have calculated the wrong space, as it obvious from the pic of the gun.

 

[Damian]

Challenger 2: Information from Answers.com

As per this site the rifled challenger 2 was ordered by british army after evaluation of leo and abrams.



unlike some all knowing tank experts BRITISH ARMY STILL DOESNOT CONSIDER HESH as obsolete.

Buahaha ----> Challenger 2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A direct copy and paste from Wikipedia.

I have a book Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank 1987-2006 by Simon Dunstan, that clearly says, the British Army wanted M1A1/M1A2 as their next Main Battle Tank, however Prime Minister Thatcher forced army to change their mind, wrote new requirements and induct a new tank designed by solely British company VDS - Vickers Defense Systems.

But a Wikipedia can be good "source" for a personlike yours. I will even make a scan for you.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

This does not represents how the gun is mounted in a tank, and does not have armored gun mantle maks/shield. As allways people that lack knowledge about tanks, seems to make wrong conclusions looking at drawing or photos... or get really easy confused by what they see.

I dont know how it is mounted but

I underestimate Mantel protection, In my view assemably is not different from Leo2`s, Perhaps Slabs size are also larger ?

No Kunal, I only show you example, that very quickly, everyone can make HESH ineffective. Understand this round was developed somewhere in the late 1940's, early 1950's it is archaic.

As long as Vehicles are without Addons & Space Armour, they can be killed with HESH..

Thinking that most Armoured vehicles in this region are not with such addons specially APC& IFV and they cannot be either..

How much more?

Thrice the normal mechanic fuse..

How many times it happens? How close soldier needs to be? You see not everything is so simple.

For an explosive charge of 5kg ( RDX ) 20 meters is enough to cause internal bleeding just with shock waves..

 

[Dejawolf]

Please post a picture to prove that the gunner sits directly below the crew hatch to determine the starting point of red line in the arjun.

my guess for the distance between the two red lines you have marked is between 600 to 800 mm , considering a normal human's side dimensions to be in the range of around 300 to 350 mm.

700mm

So from which dimension are you subtracting this 800 mm space to arrive at the armor block thickness behind gunners sight?

i'm basing it on the line drawing of the arjun.

Ofcourse before embarking on these calculations based on assumptions we need to know the exact position of gunner's seat with respect to crew hatch.

i don't see why, but this is the seating arrangement:

and for what it's worth, leopard 2A4

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The sight placement are too big
The side Armour looks thin..
The gunner periscope is too close to sight placement
The gunner periscope outlet is not straight like sub periscope
The masks distance is not properly fixed inside rather
The ammo containers are too long..


The best one can say its a rough diagram how things look inside and there are errors, Not professional work enough for studies..

 

[Damian]

I underestimate Mantel protection, In my view assemably is not different from Leo2`s, Perhaps Slabs size are also larger ?

No, everything is similiar, it is just lack of gun mantle mask that creates a visual confusion, some people might think that the space between specified points is then larger than on Dejawolfs 3d model.

As long as Vehicles are without Addons & Space Armour, they can be killed with HESH..

Thinking that most Armoured vehicles in this region are not with such addons specially APC& IFV and they cannot be either..

You can add simple spaced armor within hours, it is not even needed to use armor steel, it can be simple mild steel, just welded to the spacers that are welded to the base armor, and such screens does not need to be very thick either... a modern ersatz of German WWII Schurzen screens.

Thrice the normal mechanic fuse..

It is not that expensive then.

For an explosive charge of 5kg ( RDX ) 20 meters is enough to cause internal bleeding just with shock waves..

If all targets are perfectly exposed, real life is not so simple.

And below a history of Challenger 2.



It seems it's creation was more a political decision, not because British Army wanted exclusively tank armed with rifled gun firing HESH eh? And this is written by British author based on British MoD sources mostly.

The sight placement are too big
The side Armour looks thin..
The gunner periscope is too close to sight placement
The gunner periscope outlet is not straight like sub periscope
The masks distance is not properly fixed inside rather
The ammo containers are too long..


The best one can say its a rough diagram how things look inside and there are errors, Not professional work enough for studies..

You can allways create a 3d model on your own Kunal, or anyone else if you don't like it.

But I think you do not like it because it is wrong, but rather because it is accurate enough and shows truth, truth that is not convieniant.

 

[ersakthivel]

Buahaha ----> Challenger 2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A direct copy and paste from Wikipedia.

I have a book Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank 1987-2006 by Simon Dunstan, that clearly says, the British Army wanted M1A1/M1A2 as their next Main Battle Tank, however Prime Minister Thatcher forced army to change their mind, wrote new requirements and induct a new tank designed by solely British company VDS - Vickers Defense Systems.

But a Wikipedia can be good "source" for a personlike yours. I will even make a scan for you.

But you are incapable of explaining the theory behind the smooth bore has superior accuracy than rifled to save your life is what I know.

And your knowledge about ARJUN like,
1.the ammo types of arjun
2.and even what was the discarded 40 ton 1992 model and what is the production model
3.How ammo is placed in arjun
4.the ground pressure per square inch
5.muzzle velcity for APFSD rounds
is all close to zero.

But you will continue some racist rant against arjun in forums all over the net with spurious drawings.

If countered you will always say I wont trust the net and go by book and back off.But continue to rant about stuff you dont know a zilch about ALL OVER THE NET. If you believe only in books why are you expecting other guys to believe your posts on the net? How many authoritative books you have written on tanks.

That is your psychological profile according to me.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

No, everything is similiar, it is just lack of gun mantle mask that creates a visual confusion, some people might think that the space between specified points is then larger than on Dejawolfs 3d model.

I am not dejawolf diagram they are too rough to count on, The mask on Arjun mantal is different but rest is same..

You can add simple spaced armor within hours, it is not even needed to use armor steel, it can be simple mild steel, just welded to the spacers that are welded to the base armor, and such screens does not need to be very thick either... a modern ersatz of German WWII Schurzen screens.

Yes, in that case but till then what is authorized by units are going in..

It is not that expensive then.

I am not sure how you can say that a electronic fuse is 3 times expensive than a mechanical fuse still not expensive ?

If all targets are perfectly exposed, real life is not so simple.

Same with other rounds..

And below a history of Challenger 2.



It seems it's creation was more a political decision, not because British Army wanted exclusively tank armed with rifled gun firing HESH eh? And this is written by British author based on British MoD sources mostly.

I cannot compare with Challenger program, Arjun is very old program, HESH rounds are used by post WW2 tanks then, Centurions were very good at killing tanks and use HESH so does 106mm RCL guns..

 

[Damian]

But you are incapable of explaining the theory behind the smooth bore has superior accuracy than rifled to save your life is what I know.

Well maybe I am not explaining any theory, but a real life effects. Real life many times is very different than theory... and why I would need to save my life? What you will come to my country to kill me?

And your knowledge about ARJUN like,
1.the ammo types of arjun
2.and even what was the discarded 40 ton 1992 model and what is the production model
3.How ammo is placed in arjun
4.the ground pressure per square inch
5.muzzle velcity for APFSD rounds
is all close to zero.

But you will continue some racist rant against arjun in forums all over the net with spurious drawings.

But I get it, it is not about tank

If countered you will always say I wont trust the net and go by book and back off.But continue to rant about stuff you dont know a zilch about ALL OVER THE NET. If you believe only in books why are you expecting other guys to believe your posts on the net? How many authoritative books you have written on tanks.

I do not expect people like you will believe in anything else than their fantasies. But there is such thing called common sense, and adult people contrary to you, have such common sense. As for books, I wrote none, yet, but I plan to wrote several in future.

That is your psychological profile according to me.

Oh so you are engineer, psycho analisist, you are also probably soldier, sailor, pilot, politician, astronaut etc. etc. etc.

I hope you got the sarcasm.

I am not dejawolf diagram they are too rough to count on, The mask on Arjun mantal is different but rest is same..

Take a better look then.

Yes, in that case but till then what is authorized by units are going in..

Then after initial casualties, your enemy will improve... unless of course you underestimate them... but this is a first step to hell.

I am not sure how you can say that a electronic fuse is 3 times expensive than a mechanical fuse still not expensive ?

And how much such fuze costs? 10$? 50$? be it even 100$, a 3 times more is not that much.

I cannot compare with Challenger program, Arjun is very old program, HESH rounds are used by post WW2 tanks then, Centurions were very good at killing tanks and use HESH so does 106mm RCL guns..

The problem is that even Pakistans Al Zarrar tanks have something that looks like spaced armor on some variants which means HESH is not effective anymore, other Al Zarrar tanks have ERA and other additional protection, and Al Zarrar is nothing more than T-54/55 and ZTZ-59/69 improvement, a very old tank in it's essence.

You can't just look in the past all the way and say "it worked then, it will work now and in future".

 

[ersakthivel]

700mm



i'm basing it on the line drawing of the arjun.


i don't see why, but this is the seating arrangement:

and for what it's worth, leopard 2A4

What can one do with a diagram without dimensions and all placement of stuff based on dubiuos assumption?
Any photo proof for the man sitting directly below the crew hatch?
What are the grey color square blocks behind the man on the top in ARJUN
and why they are not there for LEO?
The ammo storage tube looks too long as well.Any guess on their dimensions?

 

[Dejawolf]

The best one can say its a rough diagram how things look inside and there are errors, Not professional work enough for studies..

well, of COURSE it's a rough diagram, but it should be accurate to within 10cm or so.
the leopard diagram on the other hand is accurate to within 1cm.
I went inside it myself with measuring tape to get the accurate dimensions.
if you want go ahead and take measures of the real Arjun, and post them here.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Are you drunk ?

Then after initial casualties, your enemy will improve... unless of course you underestimate them... but this is a first step to hell.

And how much such fuze costs? 10$? 50$? be it even 100$, a 3 times more is not that much.

The problem is that even Pakistans Al Zarrar tanks have something that looks like spaced armor on some variants which means HESH is not effective anymore, other Al Zarrar tanks have ERA and other additional protection, and Al Zarrar is nothing more than T-54/55 and ZTZ-59/69 improvement, a very old tank in it's essence.

You can't just look in the past all the way and say "it worked then, it will work now and in future".

 

[Kunal Biswas]

10cm is like 100mm error ...

In that sense its good job but still wrong at periscope sight..

well, of COURSE it's a rough diagram, but it should be accurate to within 10cm or so.

 

[ersakthivel]

Well maybe I am not explaining any theory, but a real life effects. Real life many times is very different than theory... and why I would need to save my life? What you will come to my country to kill me?

Only true experts have the technical knowledge to explain theory.sign board readers gawking at various def expos obviously can't.Sorry to trouble you.
"to save one's life"--is a term used to reinforce one's wooden headed inability to learn anything despite repeated attempts,not hunting and killing.

You are incompetent even in discussion.

Discussion means citing theory behind real life experience not psychic hallucination.

I never knew that tanks have races.

Tanks don't have .but teen age tank experts have.

But I get it, it is not about tank, it is just of yours butt hurted ambitions, nationalism and inferiority complex.

Typical rant in the face of inability to accept a basic fact like ,after toiling for decades with rifled gun, ARJUN gives about the same muzzle velocity to APFSD rounds and accuracy appreciated by IA,as the latest production model leo

Take a better look then.



Then after initial casualties, your enemy will improve... unless of course you underestimate them... but this is a first step to hell.



And how much such fuze costs? 10$? 50$? be it even 100$, a 3 times more is not that much.



The problem is that even Pakistans Al Zarrar tanks have something that looks like spaced armor on some variants which means HESH is not effective anymore, other Al Zarrar tanks have ERA and other additional protection, and Al Zarrar is nothing more than T-54/55 and ZTZ-59/69 improvement, a very old tank in it's essence.

You can't just look in the past all the way and say "it worked then, it will work now and in future".

SO all the fortifications, light vehicles and pretty much any enemy target has spaced armor.Can you enlighten us which authoritative book that says Al Zarrar has spaced armor? OHHHH, books are only needed when it is convenient to ram your views, not needed when the other guy asks a question.