Arjun vs T90 MBT

[Kunal Biswas]

More like 18-20cm head size without helmet / cap..

maybe the commander has a very small head?

 

[ersakthivel]

Ok So What @Damian @Dejawolf, @militarysta say is

Remove the God damn Turret and Fix it with Unmanned Rhienmetall type 120 mm Smoothbore low signature turret.

And @Kunal Biswas @ersakthivel and other Indian brothers say let the Turret and the tank be inseperable and is perfect......

And in that BREAKING NEWS...FMBT to focus on weight reduction of battle tanks, says DRDO chief - Indian Express
(DRDO Chief says FMBT to focus-on-weight-reduction of MBTs) LOOKS LIKE ITS NOT ONLY ME WHO HAVE GHENGIS KHAN TYPE MENTALITY.....

Guys seriously i mean last 10-15 sections of the thread has really revolved around this argument and debate. I think it would be more feasible to have unmanned turret in order to get rid of "extra spaces" and "Heavy Armour" leading to more weight......:thumb:

Does any major tank producing nation building a prototype?

A big NO.it was just a concept posted on the net in a PDF.You want to junk a 30 year developmental saga for a PDF tank?

No nation has any production model nearing trials.Why should this risk is to be dumped on CVRDE?

it can at best used to in supportive roles.Demands on tanks are going to only increase in future.Active protection system with well protected armor is still practiced by all major powers.

So please show which major country proposes to replace their manned turret tanks with unmanned turret tank?

Four men crew conventional tanks are still preferred by western armies.If they can not bring it into production what makes you think a first time tank making country like india can do it?

At best we can have a lower weight tank.if totally unmanned tanks are pioneered that is a different story all together.

 

[methos]

Early 90s prototype..

And you can see that because of what?

 

[ersakthivel]

More like 18-20cm head size without helmet / cap..

kunal ,
helmet size does not add up in side view, it will only add dimension from front view.
So all rational calculation according to scale indicates arjun has close to 680 mm space available for armor ,

if your statement that the crew hatch is between 53 cm to 55 cm wide is correct.

Because if you measure the crew hatch in the plane parallel to the turret width the dark space contained within the crew hole shows 15 mm on scale .

So if you divide((reality ) 550 mm/15 mm(on the photo) you get 30.55

which means every mm on the photo should be equal to 30.55 mm in real life.

If we base our calculation upon this there is no possibility of error whatsoever.


Because there is no chance of error when you convert dimensions according to scale.

It is a standard practice in technical drawing.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Because i have been following my country program way longer than you..

And you can see that because of what?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I cannot open the page but hatch photo here :

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/9558-arjun-main-battle-tank-mbt-186.html

 

[methos]

Because i have been following my country program way longer than you..

Which is another way to say that there is no optical difference...

 

[Kunal Biswas]

If that was the issue, i wouldn't have been be replying to you..

Which is another way to say that there is no optical difference...

 

[Daredevil]

I cannot open the page but hatch photo here :

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/9558-arjun-main-battle-tank-mbt-186.html

 

[Dejawolf]

The ARJUN has longer length and wider width than the LEO and at the same time,

you all are consistently saying that the arjun has lesser armor on all sides than leo ,

with even lesser armor efficiency for kanchan modular armor,

no, wrong. in this drawing, you can see i estimated the Arjun front armour thickness to be equal to the leopard, at least on the loaders side. and on the thick portions of the side turret, Arjun is about 50mm thicker.

i estimated Kanchan armour to be about equal to leopard 2A4 composite armour.
FYI leopard 2 in the early 1980's didn't have composite armour, it had spaced armour.
only the 2A4 got composite armour in 1985.

also quote from paul L:
A LEO-2 tanker reported"Some years ago, during my service time, I did talk to an engineer from Krauss-Maffei, this did result in protection numbers of 700mm RHAe vs. KE and >1000mm RHAe vs. HEAT for the Leopard 2A4 tank turret front". FAS has the same rating at 700mm KE & 1000mm HEAT

When are you going to stop it?

when you admit that you are wrong about your estimates.

 

[Dejawolf]

Does any major tank producing nation building a prototype?

A big NO.it was just a concept posted on the net in a PDF.You want to junk a 30 year developmental saga for a PDF tank?

No nation has any production model nearing trials.Why should this risk is to be dumped on CVRDE?

it can at best used to in supportive roles.Demands on tanks are going to only increase in future.Active protection system with well protected armor is still practiced by all major powers.

So please show which major country proposes to replace their manned turret tanks with unmanned turret tank?

Four men crew conventional tanks are still preferred by western armies.If they can not bring it into production what makes you think a first time tank making country like india can do it?

At best we can have a lower weight tank.if totally unmanned tanks are pioneered that is a different story all together.

falcon turret:
Falcon Turret | Military-Today.com

crew is located in turret, but only gun extends above hull. weight saving of approximately 5 tons.
Jordanians have created 3 prototypes.
17 ready rounds compared to 10 in arjun, 8 rounds per minute.
also, notice how they swapped out the british L30 rifled gun with the 120mm smoothbore gun. :3

then the stryker MGS:

well, you probably know this one. low-profile turret currently in production.

 

[ersakthivel]

no, wrong. in this drawing, you can see i estimated the Arjun front armour thickness to be equal to the leopard, at least on the loaders side. and on the thick portions of the side turret, Arjun is about 50mm thicker.

i estimated Kanchan armour to be about equal to leopard 2A4 composite armour.
FYI leopard 2 in the early 1980's didn't have composite armour, it had spaced armour.
only the 2A4 got composite armour in 1985.

also quote from paul L:
A LEO-2 tanker reported"Some years ago, during my service time, I did talk to an engineer from Krauss-Maffei, this did result in protection numbers of 700mm RHAe vs. KE and >1000mm RHAe vs. HEAT for the Leopard 2A4 tank turret front". FAS has the same rating at 700mm KE & 1000mm HEAT



when you admit that you are wrong about your estimates.

For the past 20 posts you have placed the commander below the hatch for ARJUN.

Now all of a sudden you have moved him forward.

Why this kolaveri.
I have told you hundred times that the sides are going to be armored fully in arjun mk-2

And both sides of arjun mk-1 have armor upto crew hatch not like one sided as you portray

please don't post one wrong drawing after another , it may completely mislead people.

I already said that we can stop this hair splitting about drawings to you.
Please read my reply to kunal and if there is anything wrong reply to me.
Otherwise don't post half dimensioned misplaced wrong draawings.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Your estimations are wrong..

Whatever technique is used ( scales ) does not same as per my calculations from original tank..

 

[Damian]

For the past 20 posts you have placed the commander below the hatch for ARJUN.

Now all of a sudden you have moved him forward.

Why this kolaveri.
I have told you hundred times that the sides are going to be armored fully in arjun mk-2

And both sides of arjun mk-1 have armor upto crew hatch not like one sided as you portray

please don't post one wrong drawing after another , it may completely mislead people.

I already said that we can stop this hair splitting about drawings to you.
Please read my reply to kunal and if there is anything wrong reply to me.
Otherwise don't post half dimensioned misplaced wrong draawings.

It is not a commander but a gunner on Dejawolfs 3d model that is visible from above.

Your estimations are wrong..

Whatever technique is used ( scales ) does not same as per my calculations from original tank..

Kunal, and you are sure your meassures are proper? Do you know how to properly meassure tanks armor? It is needed to be done from inside and outside, if you made it only from the outside, then error probability is very, very high, especially that Arjun do not have clearly visible weld lines on turret roof indicating armor cavities... and this fact in itself is interesting and gives a lot to think.

 

[ersakthivel]

falcon turret:
Falcon Turret | Military-Today.com

crew is located in turret, but only gun extends above hull. weight saving of approximately 5 tons.
Jordanians have created 3 prototypes.
17 ready rounds compared to 10 in arjun, 8 rounds per minute.
also, notice how they swapped out the british L30 rifled gun with the 120mm smoothbore gun. :3

then the stryker MGS:

well, you probably know this one. low-profile turret currently in production.

How far they lift up if a mine goes off under them?
is the ammo safe or will it cook up?
And to exploit their exceptional turret geometry they must always move in a straight line like ants and never turn the turrets , Is that in the manual?
never turn your turret to exploit geometry othe wise you will be roasted.
They look like lost moutain goats to me.

For this to be developed IA should give a GSQR to CVRDE.
Otherwise if CVRDE shows something like this to army they will be lynched.

 

[Damian]

How far they lift up if a mine goes off under them?

What you have in your wicked mind? They were not lift, you would need incredibly huge IED to lift a turret.

is the ammo safe or will it cook up?

Falcon turret have ammunition in autoloader placed in isolated turret bustle.

M1128 MGS have ammunition placed in autoloader that is encased in armored bulkheads.

And to exploit their exceptional turret geometry they must always move in a straight line like ants and never turn the turrets , Is that in the manual?
never turn your turret to exploit geometry othe wise you will be roasted.

These are low profile turrets, which means that crew is allways below turret race ring, so the rest of the turret can be less armored and can be sacrificed for crew safety.

They look like lost moutain goats to me.

You are the last person to make any opinions about different designs. Naturally both of presented by Dejawolf turret designs are not perfect, because they are still not fully unmanned, only fully unmanned turret will show full benefit for the whole design.

For this to be developed IA should give a GSQR to CVRDE.
Otherwise if CVRDE shows something like this to army they will be lynched.

This the most stupid approach I ever seen. In NATO or Soviet Union, concept works and R&D was allways in motion, to eventually come up with new solution, when industry or design bureau shown a concept or technology demonstrator, it was accepted for further work or abandoned... here we have nothing more than a stagnation, and when somebody finally will woke up, it can be too late.

Even in my country, development of new armored vehicles was mostly initiative of design bureau and industry, army liked the idea and full R&D development cycle started.

 

[Shirman]

@ ersakthivel Sir,
@militarysta Sir had given a wonderful idea to convert Arjun MK1 using readymade falcon turret shown by @Dejawolf or WBP Anders some 6 to 7 pages back.

Frankly speaking i liked his idea of using 120mm Smoothbore gun with modern NATO SABOTS when mainly dealing with T-80UDs as he Militarysta had shown a correct way of improving / maximizing the fire power and reaping the benefits of western smoothbore.......against a worthy enemy Paki T-80UD and CHINESE TYPE-99A2.

I Know ur affinity with the current rifled gun but ATLEAST I DO FEEL THAT THE TANK COMMANDER SHOULD BE PROVIDED MAXIMUM FIREPOWER TO CRUSH THE ENEMY FORMATIONS HE WILL BE GOING TO FACE IN THE FUTURE...........

 

[Dejawolf]

the US army TTB: back in cold war, this was the future of tank design.

the crew was fully compartmentalized from the ammunition, in a heavily armoured cocoon.

by reducing the weight of the turret, making it nearly sacrificial, the hull could be uparmoured significantly, and enhancing survivability for the crew.

the germans are the first to fully realize a completely autonomous serial production turret design, for their Puma IFV:

well, all this talk about tank design has been fun, but i'm getting tired now. in the end, it's the crew that wins the battle. you can have the best tank in the world,
but with an inexperienced crew you will lose the battle, as proven by a swedish centurion crew that seriously whooped an inexperienced crew of the newest Strv 122.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

From Outer area its +180cm / 1800mm as drawn in the photo..

Seen it from inside, the space is allocated mostly in width not much to forward area but its harder to measure from inside coz its dark,

You can notice the bar over i draw i maroon like, that is where or few inches ahead or back interior stops..

Kunal, and you are sure your meassures are proper? Do you know how to properly meassure tanks armor? It is needed to be done from inside and outside, if you made it only from the outside, then error probability is very, very high, especially that Arjun do not have clearly visible weld lines on turret roof indicating armor cavities... and this fact in itself is interesting and gives a lot to think.

 

[Damian]

From Outer area its +180cm / 1800mm as drawn in the photo..

Completely unrealistic, not to mention that this would made problems with turret balance that would be too much for the left front are, not to mention the maintnance problems I mentioned.

Seen it from inside too, the space is allocated mostly in width not much to forward area but its harder to measure from inside coz its dark..

So you did not meassured it from inside properly, and then taking in to consideration internal volume, meassured exterior?

Well my congratulations for making wrong meassurements.

Next time do it properly with a flashlight.