Arjun vs T90 MBT

Dejawolf

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How far they lift up if a mine goes off under them?
is the ammo safe or will it cook up?
ammunition in turret bustle is protected with blowoff panels, reserve ammunition in hull is only spall protected however with water containers. direct hit will cause ammunition explosion.

And to exploit their exceptional turret geometry they must always move in a straight line like ants and never turn the turrets , Is that in the manual?
never turn your turret to exploit geometry othe wise you will be roasted.
They look like lost moutain goats to me.
it is pretty exceptional:

1/3 of the front profile of the challenger 1.
this kind of turret geometry is exceptional for defensive positions.at 2km chance to be hit is reduced with 60%.
as for side turret protection, it's about the same as for arjun :p
 

Kunal Biswas

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@Damian, Read my post again..

Still not sure, I cannot help you more..
 
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Damian

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Sorry Kunal, it is still unrealistic, because this makes reloading of coaxial machine gun for loader, immposible, seriously, you made a mistake. Pity that there are no more detailed photos of the interior, I would show you, where mistake is.
 

Kunal Biswas

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I have given you the details, And i am not just judging from any photos but giving you first hand details..

You have to figure this out yourself, How this does.. ( Arjun design in not only from Leo2a4 but earlier British tanks ) << May provide you a hint ?

That is all i can do..

it is still unrealistic, impossible, seriously a mistake.
 

Damian

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Kunal, and the result is the same, such thickness is completely unrealistic, it is immposible to reload coax, perform maintnance on it as well as performing maintnance on the main gun.



Here you have visible coax port.



Look, it is just ridiculous to claim such armor thickness, and as I said it makes coax immposible to reload, to performa maintnance on it, same goes for main gun when it comes to maintnance.

Also :



Look here, at this photo, there is no armor so close to the loader station as you claims here:

 

militarysta

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More accurate >>

This is impossible -any single photo of right turret space shown that.
Proof:


As You can see it's impossible situation (this mark by You.)
On photos we can clearly see that in more then 2 "hath" width there is no front backplate. So Your draw is wrong. I marked on that photos area when on interior photos there is no backplate.

In fact my firs draw is more or less correct:


Only question is - after main sight there is 450 or 500mm cavity. Rest is clealy visible on photos.
 

pmaitra

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If weight reduction is the issue, one has to go for an unmanned turret. That will reduce situational awareness, but make a tank lighter and more secure if a 3 man crew were to be well ensconced inside the hull alone. Modern optics can help in such tanks, but nothing beats being able to open the hatch and peep out for a few moments.

Make the whole tank turret out of Titanium, and it will not only be 40%-45% lighter, but will also defeat most modern shaped charges, but that would make the tank turret 6 times as expensive.

Either way, there is no foolproof design. You cannot have the cake and eat it too.

Arjun as it is today, is good enough. Sure there are shortcomings, but which other tank does not?
 

Damian

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Arjun as it is today, is good enough. Sure there are shortcomings, but which other tank does not?
Arjun have decently designed hull, nobody questions that, the problem is that turret, redesign the turret, and problem will disappear.

As for shortcomings in design, there are acceptable and unacceptable shortcomings, Arjun turret design is unacceptable... at least would not be both in NATO or todays Russia and many other countries.

If weight reduction is the issue, one has to go for an unmanned turret. That will reduce situational awareness, but make a tank lighter and more secure if a 3 man crew were to be well ensconced inside the hull alone. Modern optics can help in such tanks, but nothing beats being able to open the hatch and peep out for a few moments.
Well this is a trade off, in the end unmanned turret will be nececity, and in the end all tanks will be designed that way.

Make the whole tank turret out of Titanium, and it will not only be 40%-45% lighter, but will also defeat most modern shaped charges, but that would make the tank turret 6 times as expensive.
Titanium?! Are you kidding? TE of Titanium against KE is only 0,8-0,9 which means that Titanium made armor plate 100mm thick is - 0,8-0,9 x 100 = 80-90mm RHAe, while for example Triple Hardness Steel have TE against KE 1,3 which means 1,3 x 100 = 130mm RHAe.

RHA TE is 1 against KE and CE (Shaped Charges).

So a turret made only from Titanium will be lighter, but will offer less protection. So in the end you need a composite armor that won't be that light. The only way is to go with unmanned turrets.
 
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pmaitra

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Arjun have decently designed hull, nobody questions that, the problem is that turret, redesign the turret, and problem will disappear.
The same thing applies to T-90. The cooling problem - and it was resolved.

As for shortcomings in design, there are acceptable and unacceptable shortcomings, Arjun turret design is unacceptable... at least would not be both in NATO or todays Russia and many other countries.
Indeed, as I said, similarly, the cooling problem of the T-90 was unacceptable. What is unacceptable and was is acceptable, is very subjective.



Well this is a trade off, in the end unmanned turret will be nececity, and in the end all tanks will be designed that way.
Unmanned turret is desirable, not a necessity.


Titanium?! Are you kidding? TE of Titanium against KE is only 0,8-0,9 which means that Titanium made armor plate 100mm thick is - 0,8-0,9 x 100 = 80-90mm RHAe, while for example Triple Hardness Steel have TE against KE 1,3 which means 1,3 x 100 = 130mm RHAe.

RHA TE is 1 against KE and CE (Shaped Charges).

So a turret made only from Titanium will be lighter, but will offer less protection. So in the end you need a composite armor that won't be that light. The only way is to go with unmanned turrets.
Ok, if I try to debate you on this, we will go on for months, till this will end up like that copper melting in a shaped charge debate. Seriously, I know what I am talking about. Do read up on Titanium - please. Moreover, when I say Titanium, it does not mean pure Titanium, but Titanium alloys. I should have clarified that. Perhaps you do not know, Titanium has been used as armour in the past to reduce weight. This is not a new concept.

Also, please provide units. What do you mean by "RHA TE is 1 against KE and CE?" 1 what? Millimeters, Newtons, Watts, Kiloponds?
 

Damian

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The same thing applies to T-90. The cooling problem - and it was resolved.
Installation of A/C unit is less a challenge than redesigning a turret.

Indeed, as I said, similarly, the cooling problem of the T-90 was unacceptable. What is unacceptable and was is acceptable, is very subjective.
So it seems protection was not a priority for DRDO.

Unmanned turret is desirable, not a necessity.
Designers from a countries that are manufacturing tanks for a much longer times, think otherwise, it was nececity, for a very long time, it was not adopted due to being above technical capabilities at that time. Read about Object 450 for example.

Ok, if I try to debate you on this, we will go on for months, till this will end up like that copper melting in a shaped charge debate. Seriously, I know what I am talking about. Do read up on Titanium - please. Moreover, when I say Titanium, it does not mean pure Titanium, but Titanium alloys. I should have clarified that. Perhaps you do not know, Titanium has been used as armour in the past to reduce weight. This is not a new concept.
Titanium alone might be usefull against smaller calliber ammunition. In case of tanks it is used in very small quanities or not used at all, because it does not offer increase in protection compared to other materials, it have only lower weight.

If I would have to choose between Titanium (even alloy) or some Ceramics like AD-97, I would use AD-97. It is less dense so also lighter than Titanium, and offers better TE against KE and CE.
 

pmaitra

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Titanium alone might be usefull against smaller calliber ammunition. In case of tanks it is used in very small quanities or not used at all, because it does not offer increase in protection compared to other materials, it have only lower weight.

If I would have to choose between Titanium (even alloy) or some Ceramics like AD-97, I would use AD-97. It is less dense so also lighter than Titanium, and offers better TE against KE and CE.
I mentioned Titanium because you and others were talking about weight reduction.

You are saying that Titanium is less dense (you are correct), and you are assuming, therefore, it is less hard (you are wrong). It is harder than steel, and also does not liquefy at temperatures steel would. It is due to the valency and electron distribution of Titanium, and the metal crystal structure it forms.

Examples of Titanium armour:



Mil-24/35 Krokodil


Alfa Class Submarine
 

Damian

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You compare hardness of Titanium to Steel, but against what steel? Cast? RHA? SHS, HHS, DHS or THS? Making generalizations does not help you.

As for your armor examples.... yeah right, strange that nobody uses Titanium in significant quantity in tanks... oh wait, perhaps because it is expensive and does not offer especially high TE against KE and CE ammunition compared to other materials.

http://www.dejawolf.com/steelbeasts/armourscience/TEvalues.html

Here, it is from Dejawolfs page, it explains a lot.
 

pmaitra

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You compare hardness of Titanium to Steel, but against what steel? Cast? RHA? SHS, HHS, DHS or THS? Making generalizations does not help you.

As for your armor examples.... yeah right, strange that nobody uses Titanium in significant quantity in tanks... oh wait, perhaps because it is expensive and does not offer especially high TE against KE and CE ammunition compared to other materials.

http://www.dejawolf.com/steelbeasts/armourscience/TEvalues.html

Here, it is from Dejawolfs page, it explains a lot.
Thank you.

We all know Titanium is expensive, and I already mentioned that in my post, so no need to reiterate what has already been said.

Now, that page by DejaWolf has different units. For example, how is rockwell C related to pressure kg/mm^2? (I am assuming it is kgf not kg)

@Damian, help me understand the relation between the different units in that page under "hardness." I do not understand, and I am assuming you do. Please explain.
 
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pmaitra

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@Damian, ok, since I am not getting a prompt response, I take it you do not understand the link you are throwing at me.

Now, go back and read this post again. Don't argue for the sake of argument. Titanium is 45% lighter than steel. Not everything in the turret is made of steel. When I am talking about a 40%-45% weight reduction, I am talking about replacing the steel with Titanium. Keep in mind, the context here is weight reduction. Had you known the basic properties of Titanium w.r.t. steel, you would have already understood that, but obviously you don't.

I hope this clarifies everything.
 
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trackwhack

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Some of us need to understand that a bunch of tank experts who spend all day shading tank drawings for the noble cause of educating us patzers, must be seriously well off and passionate about their effort or are just earning their pay.
 

Damian

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Some of us need to understand that a bunch of tank experts who spend all day shading tank drawings for the noble cause of educating us patzers, must be seriously well off and passionate about their effort or are just earning their pay.
Heh... I would wish to have money from this, but I don't, neither Militarysta.

Now, that page by DejaWolf has different units. For example, how is rockwell C related to pressure kg/mm^2? (I am assuming it is kgf not kg)

@Damian, help me understand the relation between the different units in that page under "hardness." I do not understand, and I am assuming you do. Please explain.
There is no relation, it is provided hardness for specific material in known hardness meassuring scale. For example it is difficult to find a hardness in BHN for WHA, but you can find it in Rockwell scale.

I do not understand why you seek here something more, some relations between etc.

You can allways recalculate these values to a single one.

If you wish to know more, ask Dejawolf, as he is author.

@Damian, ok, since I am not getting a prompt response, I take it you do not understand the link you are throwing at me.

Now, go back and read this post again. Don't argue for the sake of argument. Titanium is 45% lighter than steel. Not everything in the turret is made of steel. When I am talking about a 40%-45% weight reduction, I am talking about replacing the steel with Titanium. Keep in mind, the context here is weight reduction. Had you known the basic properties of Titanium w.r.t. steel, you would have already understood that, but obviously you don't.

I hope this clarifies everything.
Ask yourself why nobody completely replaced steel with titanium, if it so such superior material.
 

pmaitra

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Heh... I would wish to have money from this, but I don't, neither Militarysta.



There is no relation, it is provided hardness for specific material in known hardness meassuring scale. For example it is difficult to find a hardness in BHN for WHA, but you can find it in Rockwell scale.

I do not understand why you seek here something more, some relations between etc.

You can allways recalculate these values to a single one.
@Damian, for example BHN is a measure of hardness where you take a ball and use it to apply force on a metal and then see the diameter of the dent on the metal and use that, and the diameter of the ball, and the force, and come up with a Brinnell Hardness Number. GPa is Giga Pascal, and one Pascal is 1 Newton force applied on a surface of 1 square meters. These are different things. The are not interconvertible. Therefore, that link you provided cannot be used to compare steel and Titanium, so that link is irrelevant.

If you wish to know more, ask Dejawolf, as he is author.
Well, since you posted that link, I thought you would understand the stuff in the link. Now we know, that link compares apples with oranges.

Ask yourself why nobody completely replaced steel with titanium, if it so such superior material.
Did you read that post of mine? Here, for the second time: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/44522-arjun-vs-t90-mbt-72.html#post652166

Have people used titanium as armour? Yes.
Was Titanium armour proven to be inferior to similar steel armour against HEAT, HEP, Sabot? No.

Happy to be corrected.
 
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methos

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help me understand the relation between the different units in that page under "hardness." I do not understand, and I am assuming you do. Please explain.
You cannot determine the hardness of all materials with the same tests, thus there are multiple different hardness scales. Some types of determining the hardness are largely redundant and only used because of different country using different systems (the Vickers Hardness Scale for example is mainly used by British/some former Commonwealth countries, Rockwell seems to be mainly used by Americans). Some units can easily converted to another, others are hardly convertable.

Simply google "hardness conversion" or something like that to compare the values.

Ask yourself why nobody completely replaced steel with titanium, if it so such superior material.
Because of costs. Titanium is much better when it comes to protection per weight and nearly as good as RHA (depending on the alloy). Some Titanium alloys weigh only 40% of the RHA required for the equivalent protection... this means you can (even though armour might get slightly thicker) replace the 15 tonnes heavy Chieftain turret with a 6 tonnes turret made out of high quality Titanium.
 

Damian

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Because of costs. Titanium is much better when it comes to protection per weight and nearly as good as RHA (depending on the alloy). Some Titanium alloys weigh only 40% of the RHA required for the equivalent protection... this means you can (even though armour might get slightly thicker) replace the 15 tonnes heavy Chieftain turret with a 6 tonnes turret made out of high quality Titanium.
I doubt that only costs are sufficent explanation. It is possible to even weld such thick plates of Titanium? Or do cast Titanium would be as good as Steel? Without ballistic tests it is hard to say.

@Damian, for example BHN is a measure of hardness where you take a ball and use it to apply force on a metal and then see the diameter of the dent on the metal and use that, and the diameter of the ball, and the force, and come up with a Brinnell Hardness Number. GPa is Giga Pascal, and one Pascal is 1 Newton force applied on a surface of 1 square meters. These are different things. The are not interconvertible. Therefore, that link you provided cannot be used to compare steel and Titanium, so that link is irrelevant.
I didn't know that, seriously... Stop acting like a father if you do not understand the point, and try educating others.

Well, since you posted that link, I thought you would understand the stuff in the link. Now we know, that link compares apples with oranges.
I understand, it seems that you seek there things which does not exist, neither you understand what is written in that table.

Did you read that post of mine? Here, for the second time: Arjun vs T90 MBT

Have people used titanium as armour? Yes.
Was Titanium armour proven to be inferior to similar steel armour against HEAT, HEP, Sabot? No.

Happy to be corrected.
Mechanical properties are not everything, it is also question as how thick plates from specific material can be made, and if these plates can be welded. For example THS plates are more efficent than RHA, but are also difficult to manufacture as thicker ones, and more difficult to weld.

There is at least several reasons why nobody makes tanks from pure Titanium. Same goes for alluminium, for example British were experimenting with alluminium tank with Burlington armor, in the end idea was abandoned.
 
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