Arjun vs T90 MBT

[ersakthivel]

i'd ask you the same thing,i'm not the one who downgraded my armour estimates by as much as 1000mm on the arjun front turret....
Arjun Mk.II revealed
Livefist: India's Arjun Mk.2 Tank Revealed

Nothing was reveled.Read the post no-1097 by me.

See in engineering drawing there are two types of drawing
one----- Production drawing------------drawings with three images elevation, front view,plan view each on a plane at 90 degree angles to each other and each with the same scale.

These are the basic drawings marked with dimension detail to give accurate ideas about the dimension and co relation between of different parts.
for even more complex parts various cutaway diagrams at various angles are given.

Two------perspective drawings-------They are exactly like photographs taken from any angle of convenience.There is no way you can get the actual dimensions without knowing the exact angle at which these are taken.

If you want to get accurate dimensions ,then these photos of the same object should be taken from three planes that are 90 degree apart from each other.

that's why even my calculation effort which arrived at 680 mm space for armor is also inaccurate as pointed out by kunal.because the turret top and the man sitting inside the tank are taken at different places at different unknown angles (no one is certain that both are of the same model at all!!!!!!!!!!!!)

My effort was to try to expose the wrong assumptions of YOU and nothing more.

So this absurd pixel black magic should stop.If you have any doubts please ask a third year mechanical engineering student about it.

 

[Dejawolf]

It is not the actaul MK-2.So please don't jump in with some wrong drawings and armor estimate like you did for the mk-1 with discarded light TANK-ex prototype.

urrrhhh... Tank-ex was 49 tons because it had a lighter T72 hull. Arjun is heavier because it has a larger, better protected hull with a more powerful engine.
as for not estimating mk.2 armor... you mean like this?

 

[Dejawolf]

So this absurd pixel black magic should stop.If you have any doubts please ask a third year mechanical engineering student about it.

lol. i'm guessing you don't know what a pixel is. well, lemme give you a hint. that ruler you praised into the skies, was made up of pixels. in fact, each of the smallest accuracy lines had up to 3 pixels in it. so by measuring the pixels, and converting into the metric system, i'm able to measure far more accurately than you are.
but if i want to go real accurate, i import the picture into 3ds max, scale it so the proportions are exact, and then i can measure with an accuracy of 0.1mm.
in fact, 3ds max is a CAD drawing program, made by autodesk, the same people who create Autocad, THE SOFTWARE USED TO DESIGN THE ARJUN.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Tank EX turret is not same as Arjun MK-1 turret in terms of size and dimensions,

Tank EX turret was redesigned for T-72 chassis & applies different version of Kanchan Armour..

-----------------------------------

The software calculations are wrong, Proven before..

 

[Dejawolf]

Tank EX turret is not same as Arjun MK-1 turret in terms of size and dimensions,

Tank EX turret was redesigned for T-72 chassis & applies different version of Kanchan Armour..

Jesus christ... I KNOW!

 

[Dejawolf]

Tank EX turret is not same as Arjun MK-1 turret in terms of size and dimensions,

tell your good friend ershaktivel that. back in post #684 he mistook an arjun turret for a Tank-ex turret.

 

[Austin]

as for not estimating mk.2 armor... you mean like this?

Nice Work , The Frontal Protection of Arjun Mk2 is very close to western heavies .

So with the addition of K-5 ERA the KE protection rises from ~ 879 KE to 985 mm KE ?

Can you do similar estimates for Indian T-90S if that is possible , possiblly with estimates of all the sides of armour and not just frontal for T-90S and Arjun Mk2.

Thanks.

 

[Dejawolf]

Nice Work , The Frontal Protection of Arjun Mk2 is very close to western heavies .

So with the addition of K-5 ERA the KE protection rises from ~ 879 KE to 985 mm KE ?

Can you do similar estimates for Indian T-90S if that is possible , possiblly with estimates of all the sides of armour and not just frontal for T-90S and Arjun Mk2.

Thanks.

well, there's already an official figure of 850mm vs KE,
but i've made an estimate for Esim:

the official 850mm figure is puzzling however. it basically means the russians are using standard RHA steel, and T-72B bulging armour still..
and also, this model is the russian T-90A, the T-90 Bhisma doesn't have the laser warning receivers.

 

[Dejawolf]

My effort was to try to expose the wrong assumptions of YOU and nothing more.

there's nothing to expose. i'm just going to sit back, and wait for the indian army to more or less confirm my figures.
sooner or later there's going to be an interior picture of the latest variant of the Arjun, showing beyond a shadow of a doubt, how wrong you are.
it's going to confirm the thin turret sides, the front turret weakspot, it's going to show there's no massive armor block on the loaders side like Kunal assumes..
even sweeter, maybe there's going to be some official figures that are actually LOWER than my estimates. after all i'm not entirely certain about that 1.25 multiplier for the steel. India had severe trouble with it's license production of T-90A...

 

[Dejawolf]

Tank EX turret is not same as Arjun MK-1 turret in terms of size and dimensions,
The software calculations are wrong, Proven before..

so are you implying that the Arjun Hull did NOT improve the armour, it did NOT receive a larger and more powerful engine, which requires a larger hull? how about you prove that the Arjun turret is heavier than the tank-ex turret? they have pretty much the same dimensions.. can you also say how many tons heavier the Arjun turret is compared to the tank-ex?

 

[Dejawolf]

The software calculations are wrong, Proven before..

you proved nothing. you drew a bunch of lines on a picture and told everyone to believe these lines were accurate.
you showed us no picture of the interior to confirm this to be accurate, so your "proof" is worthless.

Also:
weight of T-72: 41500kg
weight of turret: 13000kg
weight of hull 28500kg

weight of tank-ex 47000kg
47000-28500 = 18500kg

weight of leopard 2A4 turret: 16000kg

seems to me the tank-ex turret is 2.5 tons heavier than a leopard 2A4 turret, so how to you explain your claims
that the tank-ex turret is inferior to the Arjun turret? at 2.5 tons heavier, and somewhat larger dimensions, it should have equal protection to the leopard 2A4.

 

[Dejawolf]

Nothing was reveled.Read the post no-1097 by me.

See in engineering drawing there are two types of drawing
one----- Production drawing------------drawings with three images elevation, front view,plan view each on a plane at 90 degree angles to each other and each with the same scale.

These are the basic drawings marked with dimension detail to give accurate ideas about the dimension and co relation between of different parts.
for even more complex parts various cutaway diagrams at various angles are given.

Two------perspective drawings-------They are exactly like photographs taken from any angle of convenience.There is no way you can get the actual dimensions without knowing the exact angle at which these are taken.

If you want to get accurate dimensions ,then these photos of the same object should be taken from three planes that are 90 degree apart from each other.

that's why even my calculation effort which arrived at 680 mm space for armor is also inaccurate as pointed out by kunal.because the turret top and the man sitting inside the tank are taken at different places at different unknown angles (no one is certain that both are of the same model at all!!!!!!!!!!!!)
.

you tried to make it SEEM like the position of the Guy in the turret was unknown, in a futile attempt to not seem like a complete dunce, although any person who has ever been inside of a tank will immediately recognize the commanders spot, and realize the commanders seat is positioned straight under the commanders hatch.
in this image you can see the commanders back rest through the commanders hatch:

 

[Austin]

well, there's already an official figure of 850mm vs KE,
but i've made an estimate for Esim:

the official 850mm figure is puzzling however. it basically means the russians are using standard RHA steel, and T-72B bulging armour still..
and also, this model is the russian T-90A, the T-90 Bhisma doesn't have the laser warning receivers.

Thank You.

Any thing above 850 KE for Frontal Turret is not bad , I am surprised the frontal of chasis is 1050mm KE , are these the areas likely to take hit ?

What about the side and of the turret what is the approx figure for it ?

I suppose for T-90MS those figures would still be higher as they use Relikt ERA.

As far as armour goes , I saw in Gur Khan Site think it was from NII STALI with pictures of turret they use 11 layers of composite armour T-90 turret , probably a mix for different composition and sandwitched together.

 

[methos]

well, there's already an official figure of 850mm vs KE,
but i've made an estimate for Esim:

the official 850mm figure is puzzling however. it basically means the russians are using standard RHA steel, and T-72B bulging armour still..
and also, this model is the russian T-90A, the T-90 Bhisma doesn't have the laser warning receivers.

The typical SteelBeasts armor overestimations...

 

[Dejawolf]

Thank You.

Any thing above 850 KE for Frontal Turret is not bad , I am surprised the frontal of chasis is 1050mm KE , are these the areas likely to take hit ?

What about the side and of the turret what is the approx figure for it ?

I suppose for T-90MS those figures would still be higher as they use Relikt ERA.

As far as armour goes , I saw in Gur Khan Site think it was from NII STALI with pictures of turret they use 11 layers of composite armour T-90 turret , probably a mix for different composition and sandwitched together.

the areas with 1050mm KE on hull takes into consideration the fuel tanks behind the armour.
sides should be fairly similar to T-72, ~80mm on side hull, and probably 80-100mm on rear side turret, and front armour thickness on front half of the side turret.
the 11 plates is the "bulging" armour.

 

[Damian]

I also think it is overestimated. I think you probably took ERA RHA equivalent from Vasily Fofanov, which seems to be too high. Besides this, chief of the T-90MS designing team, said to Putin lower values for T-90MS than here provided for T-90A/S.

So I would be carefull, some values in SB are just ridiculous.

As far as armour goes , I saw in Gur Khan Site think it was from NII STALI with pictures of turret they use 11 layers of composite armour T-90 turret , probably a mix for different composition and sandwitched together.

It was NERA, same as in T-72B and basic T-90.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I think both you need better way of understanding each other and respect each other to start a communication..

tell your good friend ershaktivel that. back in post #684 he mistook an arjun turret for a Tank-ex turret.

 

[Austin]

I reckon export model T-90S and T-90MS armour would be appropriately downgraded in keeping with export model approach with NATO and Russian system. Those figures might be true for T-90A but may not be for T-90S.

The Indian T-90S tank i came to know also has the 2A46M Gun similar to Indian T-72 to keep commonality with Indian tank while the Russian T-90A uses 2A46M-4 Gun

 

[Dejawolf]

I also think it is overestimated. I think you probably took ERA RHA equivalent from Vasily Fofanov, which seems to be too high. Besides this, chief of the T-90MS designing team, said to Putin lower values for T-90MS than here provided for T-90A/S.
So I would be carefull, some values in SB are just ridiculous.
It was NERA, same as in T-72B and basic T-90.

yes i took ERA values from Vasiliy fofanov. but they seem likely to me.
the K5 ERA tiles are armoured with~20-30mm steel@60 degrees, and provide a small standoff, as well as the explosive element providing some ability to disrupt the penetrator.

and 850mm figure is from this interview:
REA 2011: T-90MS MBT! Part 1/3 - YouTube
13:34 - 85cm RHAe vs KE, 120cm RHAe vs HEAT.
Bulging armor is NERA.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Are you capable of reading and understand posts that people reply to you, what hull and whose said about hull ?

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Tank EX >>

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Arjun MK1 >>

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Arjun MK1 & Tank -EX together >>

See the large difference in width and length of both turrets, Now you should realize how wrong your ideas can be..

how about you prove that the Arjun turret is heavier than the tank-ex turret? they have pretty much the same dimensions.. can you also say how many tons heavier the Arjun turret is compared to the tank-ex?

you proved nothing. you drew a bunch of lines on a picture and told everyone to believe these lines were accurate.
you showed us no picture of the interior to confirm this to be accurate, so your "proof" is worthless.

No i dont know about weight of both turrets, Coz that is classified but its lighter than Arjun MK1 as told before..

I told people coz i have a reputation here to count on, You are being a nut not to listen anyone and yelling at everyone, I told coz i been inside to most tanks in field and in shows most of you talk around here, that pic posted was first posted by me to him ages ago..

Now as i told before your calculations are wrong not accurate but estimations some of them which are way off, Your software may be most realistic to you coz that is your only way to do the job, But my options are way more than that..