Arjun vs T90 MBT

[ersakthivel]

This is the Leopard 2NG. Search for proper sources instead of using forums or blogs.

Ofcourse I know that.The idea is arjun too may get same types of upgrades for mk-2.Thats all.

 

[methos]

Can you please explain with a diagram?
"Any point on this line must be protected from -30° to +30°" - Which line are you talking about? Did you mean line segment?


Please read and understand my post. The danger zone in the drawing by @Damian is greater than what it should actually be. Why? I have explained.

As said previously, the Arjun does not have an isolated ammunition comparment, so the "danger zone" extends over the whole turret side and just stops at the inner turret rear wall.
Secondly you are only showing the sector for 30°, but the same place can be hit from 29°, 28°, 27°, 26°, ... and even from 18°. When including the not-speratated turret bustle, the danger zone increase in size and possible impact angle - so that even from 12° and smaller angles the tank's turret is unprotected.

 

[Decklander]

As said previously, the Arjun does not have an isolated ammunition comparment, so the "danger zone" extends over the whole turret side and just stops at the inner turret rear wall.
Secondly you are only showing the sector for 30°, but the same place can be hit from 29°, 28°, 27°, 26°, ... and even from 18°. When including the not-speratated turret bustle, the danger zone increase in size and possible impact angle - so that even from 12° and smaller angles the tank's turret is unprotected.

We have filled up so many pages here debating the side protection on Arjun in comparison with T-90 however the news right from the horses mouth is that the operational Arjun tank regiments have a beefed up protection on sides and the turret is nearly as well protected as that of Leopard tank. This protection has been added in production tanks and we have been needlessly debating on a non issue. The pix of those additional side armour fitted tanks have already been posted here. The horsee mouth are the guys operating this tank in the formations.

 

[Damian]

Non of such photographs were shown. Unless you have problems with eyes, and do not see difference between armor and storage box.

 

[militarysta]

and the turret is nearly as well protected as that of Leopard tank.

Any draw, poto, anything?

\The pix of those additional side armour fitted tanks have already been posted here.

Where? I only seen tool boxes on turret sides. Not armour.

 

[pmaitra]

As said previously, the Arjun does not have an isolated ammunition comparment, so the "danger zone" extends over the whole turret side and just stops at the inner turret rear wall.
Secondly you are only showing the sector for 30°, but the same place can be hit from 29°, 28°, 27°, 26°, ... and even from 18°. When including the not-speratated turret bustle, the danger zone increase in size and possible impact angle - so that even from 12° and smaller angles the tank's turret is unprotected.

Diagram.

I know you have said this earlier, but it doesn't become any clearer.

Again, diagram with centreline and two points.

 

[Decklander]

Non of such photographs were shown. Unless you have problems with eyes, and do not see difference between armor and storage box.

This the real in service tank pix of Arjun Mk1. Pls have a detailed look. We have been debating on old pix. Pls also note the added protection on the sides of track skirt.


The Indian-made main battle tank Arjun Mk II will perform a week firing tests in May 2012 0705121 - Army Recognition
"Arjun" Main Battle Tank

This is what Arjun MK2 will look like.
File:Arjun Mk II graphic courtesy Ajai Shukla.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now can we take this forward and I request members to reply to my post #349.

 

[Damian]

This the real in service tank pix of Arjun Mk1. Pls have a detailed look. We have been debating on old pix. Pls also note the added protection on the sides of track skirt.


The Indian-made main battle tank Arjun Mk II will perform a week firing tests in May 2012 0705121�-�Army Recognition
"Arjun" Main Battle Tank

There are storage boxes over turret sides, you can clearly see hinges and handles.




Red - composite armor, Blue - storage box.

Heavy Ballistic Skirts are nothing special in reality, standard for most tanks.

This is what Arjun MK2 will look like.
File:Arjun Mk II graphic courtesy Ajai Shukla.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And? The thing over the turret sides where most of crew compartment is and bustle is, looks just like a redesigned storage box.

India's Arjun tank - Tanknet - Page 10

Same members ,same argument like arjun's rifled gun is history, there is no truth in the army report that arjun withstood a point blank range hit from T-72 during trials, in a different thread.

Same litany of woes.

Seems you did not understood what was written there.

Rifled guns are history, rifled gun is obsolete technology, simple as that, nobody even plans to take a step back to the rifled guns, future is in smoothbore guns.

As for Arjun armor, you also did not understood the point. The point was what ammunition was used against Arjun, the conclusion was that India do not have access to really modern ammunition, but the late 1980's and early 1990's level max, which means that "Kanchan" performance was nothing special, and there is no reasonable reason to promote it as some super duper technology.

So I have a serious question to you... do you actually understand what you read? Or you get to emotional and unable to understand what are you reading?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

After the storage boxes ..

@kunal biswasYou said the side turret wall of arjun is just 50 mm thickess RHA.

kunal are you referring to the outer most turret side plate which is effectively the outer plate of the storage box or the inner plate of the storage box ?.

 

[ersakthivel]

As said previously, the Arjun does not have an isolated ammunition comparment, so the "danger zone" extends over the whole turret side and just stops at the inner turret rear wall.

Do you expect the shell to penetrate the arjun turret and bend like a bullet fired by angelina jolie in a film (I don't remember the name) and get through the caps and hit the main ammo storage situated below in the crew compartment?

Secondly you are only showing the sector for 30°, but the same place can be hit from 29°, 28°, 27°, 26°, ... and even from 18°. When including the not-speratated turret bustle, the danger zone increase in size and possible impact angle - so that even from 12° and smaller angles the tank's turret is unprotected.

The ammo storage in mk-1 is much more safer than T-90 and will be even better in mk-2.

 

[Damian]

The ammo storage in mk-1 is much more safer than T-90 and will be even better in mk-2.

Arjun Mk1 do not have isolated ammunition compartment, neither have T-90, so both are just as same, if Arjun Mk2 will have isolated ammunition compartment, then it will be safer indeed.

 

[JBH22]

Arjun Mk1 do not have isolated ammunition compartment, neither have T-90, so both are just as same, if Arjun Mk2 will have isolated ammunition compartment, then it will be safer indeed.

We all know that Arjun is a ripped off Leopard tank so in that respect to which version you will compare it?

 

[Damian]

We all know that Arjun is a ripped off Leopard tank so in that respect to which version you will compare it?

Arjun might look like Leopard 2, but it have nothing much in common with German tank. As we could see on photos, the exposed turret bustle ammunition magazine or rather a simple rack in case of Arjun, is not isolated like ammunition magazine in Leopard 2. Both have unisolated ammo racks in hull. Overall each version of Leopard 2 is better tank, Arjun might have only advantage over older versions from A0 to A4 in better thermal sights, in fact first batch of Leopard 2's, the A0's did not even had thermal sight. So in this Arjun might be better but, overall Leopard 2 is just better.

The Mk2 of Arjun, in terms of electronics might be a closer to a 3rd+ generation of NATO tanks, but how much, we will see.

 

[Decklander]

@Damian, you are a bloody fool. we are talking of Arjun MK1 which is first ever tank designed in India. Germans have taught the world how to make tanks and how to use tyhem in Battle. AND you are comparing Leopard 2 with MK1. Why dont you pls wait for one year for Arjun MK2? We will overcome this knowledge gap of 78 yrs with Germans next year. What have you got to say to it?
Does it make any sense to you that countries like US, UK, France, Israel & Germany also had to make mk1,mk2,mk3 etc to reach whr they are today? We are going to be as good as them with just the second model. If you want to compare Leopard with Arjun, than compare Arjun Mk2 with leopard mk2 and not Arjun MK1 with Leopard MK2.
The same shit I have ssen being written by people about LCA. What they do not realise is that we may arrived late but we have beaten them in many fields like use of composites and aerodynamics. While the world was still struggling with canards, we created LCA an RSS ac with no canards or tailplane with a higher and better ROT.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

This was a possible upgrade that can be implemented on Arjun MK2..

This upgrades covers most of the weak points than Arjun have which are same as Leo2 A4..

This is supposed to be arjun mk-1A.What is this Kunal Biswa

 

[methos]

Do you expect the shell to penetrate the arjun turret and bend like a bullet fired by angelina jolie in a film (I don't remember the name) and get through the caps and hit the main ammo storage situated below in the crew compartment?

Do you know the words "spall", "splash" and "cook off"?

The ammo storage in mk-1 is much more safer than T-90 and will be even better in mk-2.

It is not. This has been said already more than 10 pages ago. It depends on the situation. Arjun's ammo and hydraulics is unisolated and spread widely in the whole tank's volume. T-90's ammunition is all stored in hull and the tank is fitted with multipurpose liners decreasing spalling.

Arjun might have only advantage over older versions from A0 to A4 in better thermal sights, in fact first batch of Leopard 2's, the A0's did not even had thermal sight.

In fact the first batch of Leopard 2's did have thermal sights. Just not all tanks, the first ~180 - 200 (of 380) could not be fitted with thermals sights as there were supply problems.

 

[JBH22]

@Damian, you are a bloody fool. we are talking of Arjun MK1 which is first ever tank designed in India. Germans have taught the world how to make tanks and how to use tyhem in Battle. AND you are comparing Leopard 2 with MK1. Why dont you pls wait for one year for Arjun MK2? We will overcome this knowledge gap of 78 yrs with Germans next year. What have you got to say to it?
Does it make any sense to you that countries like US, UK, France, Israel & Germany also had to make mk1,mk2,mk3 etc to reach whr they are today? We are going to be as good as them with just the second model. If you want to compare Leopard with Arjun, than compare Arjun Mk2 with leopard mk2 and not Arjun MK1 with Leopard MK2.
The same shit I have ssen being written by people about LCA. What they do not realise is that we may arrived late but we have beaten them in many fields like use of composites and aerodynamics. While the world was still struggling with canards, we created LCA an RSS ac with no canards or tailplane with a higher and better ROT.

Please refrain from attacking with personal comments.

Kindly be polite in all arguments to refute, we are here to learn from each other

 

[Kunal Biswas]

It is not. This has been said already more than 10 pages ago. It depends on the situation. Arjun's ammo and hydraulics is unisolated and spread widely in the whole tank's volume. T-90's ammunition is all stored in hull and the tank is fitted with multipurpose liners decreasing spalling.

Arjun Mk1 do not have isolated ammunition compartment, neither have T-90, so both are just as same, if Arjun Mk2 will have isolated ammunition compartment, then it will be safer indeed.

The placement matters, Unlike T-90S/MS the rounds in turret are kept in a specific area and the majority of ammo at chassis are isolated in individual containers, If there is a penetration occurs not necessarily it will trigger any explosion unlike in T-90S/MS where Rounds are placed at floor 360 degree with minimum safety measures to prevent fire from reaching at floor to the propellent..

 

[Damian]

@Damian, you are a bloody fool. we are talking of Arjun MK1 which is first ever tank designed in India. Germans have taught the world how to make tanks and how to use tyhem in Battle. AND you are comparing Leopard 2 with MK1. Why dont you pls wait for one year for Arjun MK2?

If you did not noticed I wrote:

The Mk2 of Arjun, in terms of electronics might be a closer to a 3rd+ generation of NATO tanks, but how much, we will see.

Go back to school and learn how to read with understanding.

We will overcome this knowledge gap of 78 yrs with Germans next year. What have you got to say to it?

That world do not stay in place and will never wait for others. You think that if you reach the levels represented by Germans, Americans, French or Russians, they will not be ahead allready?

Maybe read some books or documents on DTIC site. When Arjun was in very early R&D phase in India, Americans, Germans and Russians were allready thinking ahead, with tanks that have unmanned turret, and whole crew in hull. You seen photos of prototypes like TTB, EGS or Object 195? Or read document about ASM or Armored Systems Modernization program, that was cancelled only because Soviet Union disappeard, but the program was very well thinked, and had been this, what US Army needs today and try to achieve under GCV program. And there is plenty of such examples. When you play with obsolete 120mm rifled gun, Americans, Germans and other NATO countries had 140mm smoothbore guns tested in late 1980's and early 1990's. Russians go even further with monstrous 152mm smoothbore gun.

Yeah, it is good to have ambitions, but it is wrong when ambitions start to have impact on realistic thinking.

Does it make any sense to you that countries like US, UK, France, Israel & Germany also had to make mk1,mk2,mk3 etc to reach whr they are today? We are going to be as good as them with just the second model. If you want to compare Leopard with Arjun, than compare Arjun Mk2 with leopard mk2 and not Arjun MK1 with Leopard MK2.

Of course, that was the point of all my posts, you finally got it! The point is to design, find weaknesses, improve, but to find weaknesses you need to be critical. You think how these big tank manufacturers overcome all problems? By discussion, criticism!

By the way, such thing as "Leopard Mk2" do not exist. Learn proper nomenclature of each country.

The same shit I have ssen being written by people about LCA. What they do not realise is that we may arrived late but we have beaten them in many fields like use of composites and aerodynamics. While the world was still struggling with canards, we created LCA an RSS ac with no canards or tailplane with a higher and better ROT.

And? When some people play with canards, or aerodynamics, some other starts to play with Stealth which is much more difficult task to accomplish.

There are no simple solutions, or simple explanations. I tried all that time, explain the obvious weakness of Arjun tank, from the point of view of more experienced nations. You didn't wanted to listen, instead starting some pseudo patriotic hype, and attacking me, only because I dared to say such things loud.

The placement matters, Unlike T-90S/MS the rounds in turret are kept in a specific area and the majority of ammo at chassis are isolated in individual containers, If there is a penetration occurs not necessarily it will trigger any explosion unlike in T-90S/MS where Rounds are placed at floor 360 degree with minimum safety measures to prevent fire from reaching at floor to the propellent..

Partially truth, although I would not bet my life on these containers. Israelis bet their and this is effect:

 

[militarysta]

The placement matters, Unlike T-90S/MS the rounds in turret are kept in a specific area and the majority of ammo at chassis are isolated in individual containers, If there is a penetration occurs not necessarily it will trigger any explosion unlike in T-90S/MS where Rounds are placed at floor 360 degree with minimum safety measures to prevent fire from reaching at floor to the propellent..

But consider the fact that more then 65% rounds hit in turret. In T-90 turret we havent ammo. In Ajrun turret we have ammo in non protected and not isolated turret bustle without blow-ut plates. So it's look not very good acually...