Arjun vs T90 MBT

[pmaitra]

Do you know the words "spall", "splash" and "cook off"?

You are responding to a situation where the projectile pierces the armour. How does even spalling come into the picture? This is the first time I am hearing this.

 

[Damian]

You are responding to a situation where the projectile pierces the armour. How does even spalling come into the picture? This is the first time I am hearing this.

When enemy projectile, be it kinetic energy penetrator or shaped charge jet, penetrates armor, and actually perforates it, the so called "spall" or small fragments of armor and projectile go inside, that spall spread inside, and these fragments are also hot, they can harm crew or ignite things inside vehicle, like ammunition, when ammunition stored inside vehicle is ignited, we call it as "cook off".

This is how cook off looks like:


Crew have no chances to survive it. This is why isolated ammunition compartments with blow off panels were designed, this is how they work.


The other solutions that were used, were so called "spall liners" that reduces amount of spall inside if armor is perforated. Also the next protection meassure are nomex uniform covers, and individual ballistic protection for crew.

Apex of such individual crew protection are for example Russian project "Cowboy" and American MSS (Mounted Soldier System).


Note that to protect against possible burn wounds, soldiers not only have nomex uniform covers, but also nomex gloves and face cover.

 

[sayareakd]

There are storage boxes over turret sides, you can clearly see hinges and handles.




Red - composite armor, Blue - storage box.

Sir some common sense says that if we have to put storage box on Arjun tank we can put it behind the turret of tank where APU is installed. same common sense also says that we have no shortage of space in Arjun tank.

 

[Decklander]

Please refrain from attacking with personal comments.

Kindly be polite in all arguments to refute, we are here to learn from each other

I agree with you. The decency of a debate is in its decency of words. But how do you deal with such people like Damian and Methos? have I argued anything wrong? You want us to be perfect and be up thr with the best with our first ever project. They shud respect our first effort rather than point holes in it and at the same time they must admit the time taken by those so called superior guys to reach whr we are with our first effort.
let me share something which you do not know. IRDE, Dehradun has made an IRST better than PIRATE. AND MK2 will have spinoff LRG driven, GAGAN corrected navigational system with 120MM laser homing rounds capable of engaging moving targets illuminated by special forces operating right upfront of the strike forces with hand held laser designators which no tank in the world has.

 

[methos]

You are responding to a situation where the projectile pierces the armour. How does even spalling come into the picture? This is the first time I am hearing this.

Spall is created by the penetrated armour:

The spall angle is dependant on armour thickness, armour material, impact velocity and type of projectile. Tests with MG ammunition on lightly armoured vehicles have shown that the spall angle can be greater than 87° (which means that everything which is inside a 43.5°-radius cone from the impact place can get hit by spall). That's why spall-liners have been adopted on several modern tanks, APCs and IFVs.

I agree with you. The decency of a debate is in its decency of words. But how do you deal with such people like Damian and Methos? have I argued anything wrong? You want us to be perfect and be up thr with the best with our first ever project.

We don't want you to be perfect, we want you to admitt mistakes so that they can be corrected in future. But nearly nobody in this forums seems to accept weaknesses in Indian made stuff.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@Damain can you share more on the type of container IDF were using ?

Partially truth, although I would not bet my life on these containers. Israelis bet their and this is effect:

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Different Armies have different approach of engagement of enemy tanks, Still Arjun is lot safer even hit in the turret than T-90S/MS coz its ammo is placed in specific areas, Unless those are hit directly it wont go off, Unlikely In T-90S/MS design the ammo is placed at floor 360degree only protected by a metal frame above and have many exposed parts of propellent around..

In case of Arjun, 10 rounds in turret are placed inside a metal tube which gives protection from hot splinters unlike the other one..

But consider the fact that more then 65% rounds hit in turret. In T-90 turret we havent ammo. In Ajrun turret we have ammo in non protected and not isolated turret bustle without blow-ut plates. So it's look not very good acually...

 

[pmaitra]

When enemy projectile, be it kinetic energy penetrator or shaped charge jet, penetrates armor, and actually perforates it, the so called "spall" or small fragments of armor and projectile go inside, that spall spread inside, and these fragments are also hot, they can harm crew or ignite things inside vehicle, like ammunition, when ammunition stored inside vehicle is ignited, we call it as "cook off".

This is how cook off looks like:


Crew have no chances to survive it. This is why isolated ammunition compartments with blow off panels were designed, this is how they work.


The other solutions that were used, were so called "spall liners" that reduces amount of spall inside if armor is perforated. Also the next protection meassure are nomex uniform covers, and individual ballistic protection for crew.

Apex of such individual crew protection are for example Russian project "Cowboy" and American MSS (Mounted Soldier System).


Note that to protect against possible burn wounds, soldiers not only have nomex uniform covers, but also nomex gloves and face cover.

I am not interested in what a cookoff looks like. Stick to spalling.

Spalling happens with HEP rounds, not AP rounds as you claim.

That was a silly comment by @methos, and a poor attempt by you to deflect the discussion away from spalling into cookoff.

Clearly @methos is clueless and is throwing around words to sound important.

 

[JBH22]

I agree with you. The decency of a debate is in its decency of words. But how do you deal with such people like Damian and Methos? have I argued anything wrong? You want us to be perfect and be up thr with the best with our first ever project. They shud respect our first effort rather than point holes in it and at the same time they must admit the time taken by those so called superior guys to reach whr we are with our first effort.
let me share something which you do not know. IRDE, Dehradun has made an IRST better than PIRATE. AND MK2 will have spinoff LRG driven, GAGAN corrected navigational system with 120MM laser homing rounds capable of engaging moving targets illuminated by special forces operating right upfront of the strike forces with hand held laser designators which no tank in the world has.

Well you know accepting criticism is good to be able to accede to excellence.

Remember after nuclear test we were treated as a pariah state and denied technology India decided to build its supercomputers it was a boon in disguise.

As to Arjun sorry to say but we cannot adopt a heuristic approach if money is being ploughed in the results has to be there see even Turks,Croats,Serbs can build tanks even if its quality is dubious.

 

[Damian]

Sir some common sense says that if we have to put storage box on Arjun tank we can put it behind the turret of tank where APU is installed. same common sense also says that we have no shortage of space in Arjun tank.

There is different solution. Take these storage boxes off, weld armor plates to create cavities for composite armor, place this composite armor there, weld cover plates, then to the newly created cavities, weld attachement points, and place there storage boxes. Something similiar like it was solved on the M1 Abrams series, where storage boxes are mounted on composite armor outerplates.

I agree with you. The decency of a debate is in its decency of words. But how do you deal with such people like Damian and Methos? have I argued anything wrong? You want us to be perfect and be up thr with the best with our first ever project. They shud respect our first effort rather than point holes in it and at the same time they must admit the time taken by those so called superior guys to reach whr we are with our first effort.

I think you completely misunderstood the meaning of my and Methos posts, they were not against India's efforts, but imagine, how much time and costs you can save, and how much lifes, if instead of isolating, you can cooperate with these that have greater experiences?

We are simple enthusiasts, but this does not mean we do not have a knowledge about these issues, imagine what DRDO could achieve, if they would cooperate with GDLS, KMW, NEXTER or BAe.

I am not interested in what a cookoff looks like. Stick to spalling.

Spalling happens with HEP rounds, not AP rounds as you claim.

That was a silly comment by @methos, and a poor attempt by you to deflect the discussion away from spalling into cookoff.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Spall is created with all types of ammunition.

The AP, APDS, APFSDS, HEAT create spall by perforating armor, while HEP also known as HESH, create spall by shock wave through armor structure.

However HEP/HESH is effective only against homogeneus armor, while APDS, APFSDS and HEAT are effective also against spaced and composite armor, as well as against ERA, NxRA and NERA.

Here is a photo of APFSDS penetrator after perforating armor plate, you can see small fragment of penetrator and armor around the penetrator main structure, this is spall.

Another penetration photo, you can see spall effect.

Mod : If you could do without getting personal, it will be appreciated.

 

[methos]

Spall - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Spall are flakes of a material that are broken off a larger solid body and can be produced by a variety of mechanisms, including as a result of projectile impact

A kinetic energy penetrator, if it can defeat the armor, generally causes spalling within the target as well, which helps to destroy/disable the vehicle and/or its crew

Can you read, pmaitra?

 

[pmaitra]

@Damian, spalling is when shards of metal are ripped off from one side of a metal wall as a result of an explosion on the OTHER side of the metal wall.

 

[militarysta]

@Damain can you share more on the type of container IDF were using ?

I can.
Photos in Mark II Merkava:






Container in CR1 and it's placment in tank:








(ps. yes, "British Media Officer" - ---- You)

For compare ammo rack form Leo-2A5:

 

[Decklander]

If you did not noticed I wrote:



Go back to school and learn how to read with understanding.



That world do not stay in place and will never wait for others. You think that if you reach the levels represented by Germans, Americans, French or Russians, they will not be ahead allready?

Maybe read some books or documents on DTIC site. When Arjun was in very early R&D phase in India, Americans, Germans and Russians were allready thinking ahead, with tanks that have unmanned turret, and whole crew in hull. You seen photos of prototypes like TTB, EGS or Object 195? Or read document about ASM or Armored Systems Modernization program, that was cancelled only because Soviet Union disappeard, but the program was very well thinked, and had been this, what US Army needs today and try to achieve under GCV program. And there is plenty of such examples. When you play with obsolete 120mm rifled gun, Americans, Germans and other NATO countries had 140mm smoothbore guns tested in late 1980's and early 1990's. Russians go even further with monstrous 152mm smoothbore gun.

Yeah, it is good to have ambitions, but it is wrong when ambitions start to have impact on realistic thinking.



Of course, that was the point of all my posts, you finally got it! The point is to design, find weaknesses, improve, but to find weaknesses you need to be critical. You think how these big tank manufacturers overcome all problems? By discussion, criticism!

By the way, such thing as "Leopard Mk2" do not exist. Learn proper nomenclature of each country.



And? When some people play with canards, or aerodynamics, some other starts to play with Stealth which is much more difficult task to accomplish.

There are no simple solutions, or simple explanations. I tried all that time, explain the obvious weakness of Arjun tank, from the point of view of more experienced nations. You didn't wanted to listen, instead starting some pseudo patriotic hype, and attacking me, only because I dared to say such things loud.



Partially truth, although I would not bet my life on these containers. Israelis bet their and this is effect:

You talked of Stealth. I do not wish to share much with you but we Indians who worship Cows and Monkies may be the first one to have an operational stealth fighter on a carrier in the world.

 

[Damian]

@Damian, spalling is when shards of metal are ripped off from one side of a metal wall as a result of an explosion on the OTHER side of the metal wall.

I do not know, what someone teach you, but when it comes to armored fighting vehicles terminology, spalling is created by ammunition, during armor penetration and perforation process, as well as by shock waves in homogeneus type of armor by HEP/HESH ammunition, or in extreme cases by HE or non penetration/perforation hits by dedicated armor piercing ammunition.
@militarysta, these Merkava Mk3 ammunition containers.

You talked of Stealth. I do not wish to share much with you but we Indians who worship Cows and Monkies may be the first one to have an operational stealth fighter on a carrier in the world.

I am not interested with religion. As for Stealth fighter on carrier, good for you, however Stealth is also not a technology that stays in one place, when Chinese, Russians or others start to play with Stealth, USA have much greater experience in this technology, and they can use a new solutions.

As I said, world do not stay in one place waiting for others to reduce their distance to these on top, because thes on top are allready seeking new solutions, or indicting them.

Back to tanks, for example when most countries are starting to play with conventional ERA, with explosive material inbetween steel plates, Ukrainians for example are allready manufacturing new type of ERA with linear shaped charges.

Others like NATO are investing in development of composite Non Energetic Reactive Armors, while Russians seems to move in to Non Explosive Reactive Armors.

Obviously the basic principles are well known to all countries with proper scientific base, but, to achieve the same level, is not easy task, for some, perhaps even immposible.

 

[pmaitra]

Spall - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





Can you read, pmaitra?

Yes, I can read. Did you see the term "projectile impact?" Do you even understand what that means?

Go back to the link and read what is written under Antitank Warfare. Why not share it with everyone?

 

[Decklander]

So now the deabte about turret protection has moved to internal storage of ammo. Still nobody here wants to reply to my post#349? why are you guys scared of a debate on that? FYI, Arjun MK2 will have absolutely same internal ammo storage as leopard MK2. ten ready use in turret and rest in special compartment with blowout panels. BTW, T-90 tank ammo is all within the turret and we all know how risky that is.

 

[sayareakd]

We are simple enthusiasts, but this does not mean we do not have a knowledge about these issues, imagine what DRDO could achieve, if they would cooperate with GDLS, KMW, NEXTER or BAe.

Russians are all around IA. Too much Vodka around.

 

[Damian]

ten ready use in turret and rest in special compartment with blowout panels.

?! I think you confuse something here. If Mk2 will have isolated compartment with blow off panels, this means it will have approx ~10 rounds in this compartment in turret bustle + ~29 in hull ammunition rack.

BTW, T-90 tank ammo is all within the turret and we all know how risky that is.

No, not in the turret, the turret is "dry" which means ammunition is in hull and under the turret in autoloader ammunition cassettes.

The AZ series of autoloaders are not basket type like 6ETs types of autoloaders. Which means that AZ autoloader is separate component from turret, while 6ETs autoloader creates a single module with turret.

AZ type autoloader is used only in T-72 and T-90 series, while 6ETs is used in T-64, T-80 and T-84 series.

In fact survivability of crew and vehicle do not depend on where ammunition is stored, but how it is stored. Best example of safe ammunition storage is M1 Abrams.


Turret bustle ammunition magazines with blast doors closed, each holds 22 105mm or 17/18 120mm rounds.


Here you can see manual drawings of how load ammunition from magazines.


Hull ammunition magazine with blast doors opened, it can cold 8 105mm or 6 120mm rounds.

So to store ammunition safely, what is needed is separation by a bulkhead or blast doors (or both), and blow off panels.

Autoloader also can be designed to store ammunition safely.

This is Meggitt Systems Compact Autoloader for M1 Abrams series, it fits in to the space currently used for two ammunition magazines, and is completely isolated from crew, there is only small port with small blast door for a single round. It can hold 34 rounds.

 

[JBH22]

T-90 is already part of the Armoured corps now guys criticising it won't make much difference 6 more regiments have been ordered.

We are not USSR to maintain a two tier armoured force so its most probably Arjun will be like in a "guest appearance" we like it or not.

However if the R&D done will be useful in developing a tank industry I believe it would be worth it otherwise its better to stop wasting money.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@methos
I think the words you used are just wrong & Shameful ..