Arjun vs T90 MBT

[ersakthivel]

Ok I made additional effort, this should be a very hard proof.

Is this additional documentary proof ?
Notice the length of the vertical red line you drew on the ARJUn's The turret top photo on the right.
This photo is taken from many meters away from the tank.
remember this photo is taken before the addition of storage box.

Notice the length of the vertical red line you drew on the photo of inside crew compartment of arjun on the left.
This photo was taken from very close distance.

If your point is right then the length of the vertical line in your inside crew compartment photo must be several times larger than the length of the vertical red line you drew on the ARJUn's The turret top photo on the right.

Because the inside crew compartment photo is shot from such a close distance (not more than a meter perhaps) should have a proportionally larger ceiling area to make your argument( that the turret side has just 70 mm thickness plate) right.

But it is showing exactly the opposite to be true.

It is a basic rule drawings of proper proportions that the closer view of the same area should provide proprotionally larger area than the same area shown shown from the distance.

The length of both the red lines appear to be the same. What does this show to you?

In both the photo you posted there appears to be so little white coloured ceiling space between the crew hatch and the inside turret side wall it actually disproves your point.

So please wait for some conclusive info before jumping into conclusion as the photos you post to bolster your points are not proper proof.That's all.

So what is eating up all the huge space between the crew hatch and side turret walls of the photo below. You can draw another thin red line on the photo below it and explain it as well.

The first one below is mk-2 and the second one below is mk-1 I suppose.

 

[ersakthivel]

The gun mantlet also seems to be covered y the armored plate.

 

[ersakthivel]

We can seee the turret overhand in this picture showing how far back arjun's turret extends over crew compartment and over the engine compartment.So hits on those backside corners wont have any implications for the crew compartment I suppose.

 

[ersakthivel]

Is this the original drawing of arjun?

With this can we resolve the thickness of the outer plate of the storage box and inner wall thickness of the storage box with any convincing arguments?

The service panels with handles (or the blow off panels no one knows for sure now) are also marked .Is this where secondary additional ammo besides the primary one below the turret is stored.

CAN we estimate the thickness of the inner turret wall by just looking at the topside view of the service panels?
The rectangular handled panels at the right side back corner are welded or bolted on the inner turret wall of varying armor thickness.
The service panels seem to be so large starting just behind the crew hatch. So it cannot accurately pinpoint the location of the secondary ammo box perhaps.
How can we estimate the thickness of the wall by seeing the outside?

The critical difference between the picture of the arjun on top and one just above is the location of crew hatches.
In the top larger picture the crew hatch seems to be located well behind the half way mark on the hull.
But in the pictures provided by damian it seems to sit right on the centerline of the hull.

So all strong zone weak zone analysis appear to be skewed in favuor of t-90 with a proportionally wrong picture of arjun provided by our guests here.

 

[ersakthivel]

Arjun's weight is given as 58.5 tons in this image and ground pressure is 0.84. if people still have doubts.

 

[ersakthivel]

PECIAL FEATURE: DRDO

'Desert Ferrari' and more

WITH the Army in possession of 100 of the 124 Arjun Mark I Main Battle Tanks it had ordered, the Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) facility that designed and developed the tank, has good reason to feel proud and prepare with confidence for the greater challenges that lie ahead. ......

......



P. Sivakumar, Director, CVRDE, narrated the Arjun saga. A few tanks were delivered to the Army's 43rd Regiment for trials. Five phases of these trials were held at Pokhran and Mahajan in Rajasthan in winter, when the temperature plummets to 5° Celsius, and in summer, when the mercury sizzles at more than 45° C, and on different kinds of terrain. The Army was keen that Arjun should be able to ford waterbodies. Each tank covered 5,000 kilometres and fired 500 rounds of ammunition.

The Army wanted a third party to assess the tanks and called in experts from Israel. They subjected the tanks to more tests at the Mahajan range and were so impressed that they called it "a desert Ferrari".

Arjun Mark I has imported content of more than 55 per cent, which includes the engine and the gun control system, which are from Germany, and the gunner's main sight, which is from Belgium. The tank has an excellent weight-to-power ratio, good mobility and accurate firepower. It weighs 58.5 tonnes and compares well with different heavy class of tanks available in the world. It has indigenously developed "Kanchan" armour, which can defeat different kinds of ammunition, and a 120mm rifled gun besides a robust transmission system and a flexible hydro-pneumatic suspension. The remaining 24 of the 124 tanks ordered by the Army will be produced by June this year, Sivakumar said.

As for Arjun Mark II, the CVRDE Director said the major upgrades would include missile-firing capability against long-range targets; panoramic sight with night vision to engage targets effectively at night; containerisation of the ammunition wing; enhanced penetration of Arjun's ammunition; a variety of ammunition; and a painted surface that will camouflage the tank.

Other major upgrades, according to Sivakumar, are explosive reactive armour; an advanced air-defence gun to shoot down helicopters; a plough to remove mines; and an advanced land navigation system. Arjun Mark II will have sensors that can detect lasers fired by an enemy tank and alert the tank to fire smoke grenades that confuse the laser. The first prototype demonstration of Ajun Mark II will take place by June 2011. By 2013-14, the first batch of about 30 tanks will roll out of the HVF, said Sivakumar.

 

[Decklander]

Wow, the thread moved up by pages...

Anyway,
@Decklander

Arjun has a lot of distance to cover. Lets wait and see how the Mk1 does over many years. The units just received the tanks a few years ago and are currently complaining about quality issues.

There were high ranking officers on the interview who claimed it has reliability issues. Even if we consider the design of the Arjun on paper is better than the T-90, we do not know of the micro issues that may be plaguing the tank even today.

For eg: The T-90 turret may spin 10000 times before there is a failure, comparatively Arjun may be designed for 10000, but may be doing 1000 because of some issue or the other. The Israelis jumped in very late into the project. If they are currently fixing these micro issues to make the tank more reliable, we will see the biggest changes happening on the Mk2.

As stated already, the Arjun has nothing to do with the T-90. T-90 was the only obvious choice during the time. According to Army officers who oversaw the deal, this tank was the only operationally produced tank in Russia. Other tank projects called Black Eagle and T-95 were just prototypes with no future while T-80 and T-64 were not Russian anymore.

Nobody paid anybody to get the T-90, the fact is DRDO is the one who gave permission for the Army to induct the tank. This is by law. Which means DRDO has no issues with the army going for the T-90. So, your claim of corruption is plain wrong.

The induction of T-90S in 2001 was needed as Arjun at that time was no where close to production. But the repeat recent order for another 350 odd T-90SM is full of corruption. We cud have easily paid just the TOt charge for fitting these modification on the T-90S which we are going to be produced in India under licence or we cud have just relocated T-90S regiments from western border to east and replaced them with newer Arjun regiments. But this was not done instead a repeat order for T-90 has been placed. This repeat order has been objected to by even DRDO.

 

[Decklander]

Now let us come to the inclined mobility, fording capability and tactics part of the two tanks.
The small size of T-90 has been called its great advantage over Arjun. To a large extent it is correct that due to its small size, lesser height T-90 has inherent advantage as it offer smaller target and so it is difficult to target and can easily hide behind obstacles/sand dunes which adds to its stealth operation.
Arjun on the other hand is big and taller than T-90, offer a big easy target and cant hide as well as T-90 behind sand dunes etc. Both these tanks under heavy cavalry.
I wud like to take you back in history a bit. To the days of alexender & Porus. Greeks and Indians both had light as well as heavy cavalry. Light cavalry was horsemen and heavy was the charioteers. But Indians had even heavier cavalry called war elephants.
In the battle between alexender and Porus, the elephants nearly turned the tables on greeks but than they got bogged down in slippery rain soaked land and the main archers of Porus famed for their accuracy and long range were not able to stabilise their bows due to rain soaked ground.
On the other hand Alexender had recruited horseman from central asia who were very quick and cud fire arrows with deadly accuracy even while riding at high speeds on their horses. They were also put into battle by him against Porus and still the heavy cavalry of Porus and his army fought with such valour that after the battle greek soldiers just refused to move forward as porus was one of the small kings of India, the real big kings were beyond punjab in present day central India.
Now let us talk about recent battles of WW2 where T-34s with smaller caliber guns out classed much heavy Tiger tanks which had heavier and longer ranged guns of germany.
So based on these two examples and study of other such battles we can safely say that a tank which combines the speed of central asian horsemen, accuracy of Indian long range archers, mobility of Greek heavy cavalry and brute strength of Indian elephant is what is needed for creating an undefeatable tank.
there are only two tanks which meet these goals. Indian Arjun and german Leopard.
I now throw open this debate to T-90 fanboys to prove me wrong that arjun despite its bigger size, heavier weight, rifled gun is inferior to T-90S tank. In this debate we will discuss existing and planned upgrades for both the tanks or we can confine the debate to what exists today.
The debate is now open.
Cavalry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ultimate Battles_King Porus ( of present day Punjab ) vs Alexander the Great - YouTube

 

[Patriot]

First in a serious debate stop calling other guy as an imbecile. if I am an imbecile why are you asking kunal for photos since you were so sure of your rule of thumb estimate of side turret wall thickness until now?
You guys are making thousands of posts all over the net with spurious drawings .SO dont pretend that you are out of time, and start calling the other guy names.

So I wont bother you from now on until I get any concrete info i can back with some source. SO you can have your peace of mind in this thread from now on without worrying about imbeciles and fanboys.

This so called self announced moron tank expert need all information for free, why heck we provide him all this information at first place? We are not supposed to prove him anything, who even does not have proper mannerism to discuss. On just one counter argument , he just starts calling names to posters

 

[Damian]

This so called self announced moron tank expert need all information for free, why heck we provide him all this information at first place? We are not supposed to prove him anything, who even does not have proper mannerism to discuss. On just one counter argument , he just starts calling names to posters

So it is only proof that Arjun tank, and it's problems is not a technical matter, but a wrongly understood national pride problem, and if someone dare to criticize it, automatically starts to be enemy of the nation? Is this right?


Well in the man time, I started to check non Indian sources, and I got information that Russians had inspection in Avadi HVF, and one of officers was literraly terrified what he saw, the production quality of T-90S was so low, that during tests one of tanks had damaged suspension, damage was so extensive, that they needed to disassemble the tank, and assemble it again, in the other test, ammunition had uncontrolled ignition during loading process in to the gun. I do not know more details, they can be found as far as I know under this title - Национальная Oборона.

In the same time P2Prada says that there are reports with quality issues even with Arjun Mk1.

So we have here actually interesting situation, with bunch of damn fanboys, who will criticize probably any foreing product, only because it is foreing, but in the same time they are defending their beloved toy like lions.

In the end it might appear that the fault of T-90 is only the damn quality control during production process, which also seems to be a problem with Arjun.

What is also funny, I never said that Arjun program should be cancelled, I pointed out weak sides of design, that should be improved, however the fanboys, did not even listen the reasonable arguments, and started to treat discussion like a war... well it seems that this is normal in this part of world eh?

BTW I never saw a data table with so many mistakes.

For example quantity of stored ammunition.

M1A2 - 42
Leopard 2 - 42
Challenger 2 - 50
Leclerc - 40
Merkava Mk3 - 48

If such are sources most of you use, then nothing strange that discussion looks as it looks.

there are only two tanks which meet these goals. Indian Arjun and german Leopard.

Why only two? There are also M1A2, Leclerc, Challenger 2, Type 90, K1, K1A1, K2, Altay, C1 Ariete, all of them weighting above 50 tons, some even above 60 tons. And all of them well designed.

In fact, if you Indians have such love towards rifled guns and HESH, why not Challenger 2 from foreing tanks? It is the one that have HESH and rifled gun in 120mm calliber?

Challenger 2E had more powerfull powerpack, better FCS, and better ergonomics than standard one.

BTW to all these sceptics, who do not believe me, just go out there, and take a closer look to Arjun, you will see that I am right.

 

[ersakthivel]

So it is only proof that Arjun tank, and it's problems is not a technical matter, but a wrongly understood national pride problem, and if someone dare to criticize it, automatically starts to be enemy of the nation? Is this right?


Well in the man time, I started to check non Indian sources, and I got information that Russians had inspection in Avadi HVF, and one of officers was literraly terrified what he saw, the production quality of T-90S was so low, that during tests one of tanks had damaged suspension, damage was so extensive, that they needed to disassemble the tank, and assemble it again, in the other test, ammunition had uncontrolled ignition during loading process in to the gun. I do not know more details, they can be found as far as I know under this title - Национальная Oборона.

In the same time P2Prada says that there are reports with quality issues even with Arjun Mk1.

So we have here actually interesting situation, with bunch of damn fanboys, who will criticize probably any foreing product, only because it is foreing, but in the same time they are defending their beloved toy like lions.

In the end it might appear that the fault of T-90 is only the damn quality control during production process, which also seems to be a problem with Arjun.

What is also funny, I never said that Arjun program should be cancelled, I pointed out weak sides of design, that should be improved, however the fanboys, did not even listen the reasonable arguments, and started to treat discussion like a war... well it seems that this is normal in this part of world eh?

BTW I never saw a data table with so many mistakes.

For example quantity of stored ammunition.

M1A2 - 42
Leopard 2 - 42
Challenger 2 - 50
Leclerc - 40
Merkava Mk3 - 48

If such are sources most of you use, then nothing strange that discussion looks as it looks.



Why only two? There are also M1A2, Leclerc, Challenger 2, Type 90, K1, K1A1, K2, Altay, C1 Ariete, all of them weighting above 50 tons, some even above 60 tons. And all of them well designed.

In fact, if you Indians have such love towards rifled guns and HESH, why not Challenger 2 from foreing tanks? It is the one that have HESH and rifled gun in 120mm calliber?

Challenger 2E had more powerfull powerpack, better FCS, and better ergonomics than standard one.

BTW to all these sceptics, who do not believe me, just go out there, and take a closer look to Arjun, you will see that I am right.

So estimating the weight of all modern MBTs and the ground pressure per sq cm ,seems to be such a difficult job , so that even an expert like you cannot come to any meaningful conclusion.This is the tenth time you are saying I dont know what the ground pressure per sq cm of arjun and I wont accept anything posted by others too.

 

[militarysta]

Sorry guys but Damian and Methos have clearly right.
Ajrun have wery "short" turret side protection. In fact it's mixed estern and western solutions but...well it doesn't look good.
Here is Leopard-2A4 turret whit LOS armour thickness and admout, ammo, and flamable factors:



please take a deep breatch and think hov diffrent is Ajrun turret.
In fact Ajrun looks to be depend on long-range desert battle idea, but it always dosen't work in that shape. Now it's 25 years westing money and time, and it was very good to India when Indian Army bough T-90S and T-90SA licences. No it's only tank comparable to pakistani T-80UD.
Ajrun is still far far from perfect.
And this storage box on Ajrun turret sides are nohing more then...storage boxes.

 

[ersakthivel]

Western tanks turret armor thickness. - Tanknet
Someone named damian has posted this info below on the above thread.
So while following the design philosophy of leopard arjun has only 50 mm RHA thickness in side turret wall according to the info posted here.
SO cvrde just slipped up in emulating leopard's side turret protection level and followed the russian T series philosophy in this regard is the accusation.Am I right?

As for side turret of Leopard 2 it is something around 250-300mm.

For the M1 series it will be something around 350-400mm, probably similiar thickness for CR2.

 

[ersakthivel]

Sorry guys but Damian and Methos have clearly right.
Ajrun have wery "short" turret side protection. In fact it's mixed estern and western solutions but...well it doesn't look good.
Here is Leopard-2A4 turret whit LOS armour thickness and admout, ammo, and flamable factors:



please take a deep breatch and think hov diffrent is Ajrun turret.

In fact Ajrun looks to be depend on long-range desert battle idea, but it always dosen't work in that shape. Now it's 25 years westing money and time, and it was very good to India when Indian Army bough T-90S and T-90SA licences. No it's only tank comparable to pakistani T-80UD.
Ajrun is still far far from perfect.
And this storage box on Ajrun turret sides are nohing more then...storage boxes.

There is a second armor plate behind the storage box which marks the inside boundary of the crew compartment

.The crucial question is what is the thickness of this inner plate, whether it has any composite armor or not ?
Can you clarify anything on this ?Once this is clarified there can be no confusion again on this matter.

Because Ajun was supposed to be modeled on Leopard. Then how did CVRDE differed from leopard armor design philosophy in this crucial side turret wall thickness and what is the reason?

Because until now there was no remarks on shortfalls in protection level of side turret armor by indian army, whether the IA gave specified a lower side armor thickness than the LEO or CVRDE made an error in design?

 

[ersakthivel]

The above is A1's crew hole on the hull.
The one below is the image of arjun hull with crew hole

They both seem to have same amount of space for on the sides of the round crew compartment cavity.Then how come arjun having such a low 50 mm thickness RHA on sides?
I think the arrangement of storage boxes outside the arjun side turret wall that is preventing us from making any meaningful conclusion in this regard.

 

[Damian]

Western tanks turret armor thickness. - Tanknet
Someone named damian has posted this info below on the above thread.
So while following the design philosophy of leopard arjun has only 50 mm RHA thickness in side turret wall according to the info posted here.
SO cvrde just slipped up in emulating leopard's side turret protection level and followed the russian T series philosophy in this regard is the accusation.Am I right?

It was me, estimations of thickness are based on Militarysta calculations.

CVRDE might made mistake, but I have different theory, that the problem is "Kanchan" inefficency in weight. You must understand that most composite armors are only space or volume inefficent, but are weight efficent, "Kanchan" probably provide required protection levels, but might be weight inefficent, so designers to save vehicle weight, decided to reduce vehicle internal volume protected by composite armor.

Because until now there was no remarks on shortfalls in protection level of side turret armor by indian army, whether the IA gave specified a lower side armor thickness than the LEO or CVRDE made an error in design?

And they did any tests? These tests results were avaiable for public? And did they had opportunity to compare it to Leopard 2 or any other western tank?

The above is A1's crew hole on the hull.
The one below is the image of arjun hull with crew hole

They both seem to have same amount of space for on the sides of the round crew compartment cavity.Then how come arjun having such a low 50 mm thickness RHA on sides?
I think the arrangement of storage boxes outside the arjun side turret wall that is preventing us from making any meaningful conclusion in this regard.

:shocked: But these are photos of the hull, not the turret, we are discussing about the turret, not the hull, see the difference.

As for side hull protection, in all tanks it ranges from 20-40mm where suspension is mounted, to 50-80mm above suspension over crew compartment and to 40-70mm above suspension over engine compartment.

So estimating the weight of all modern MBTs and the ground pressure per sq cm ,seems to be such a difficult job , so that even an expert like you cannot come to any meaningful conclusion.This is the tenth time you are saying I dont know what the ground pressure per sq cm of arjun and I wont accept anything posted by others too.

No you do not understand, I said that required is credible source, for example army document.

 

[militarysta]

There is a second armor plate behind the storage box which marks the inside boundary of the crew compartment

Where? Turret side in Ajrun is about 60-80mm thick.

.The crucial question is what is the thickness of this inner plate, whether it has any composite armor or not ?
Can you clarify anything on this ?Once this is clarified there can be no confusion again on this matter.

Im 80% sure that there is no "inner plate" on Ajrun turret sides.

Because Ajun was supposed to be modeled on Leopard.

I'm no so sure.

Then how did CVRDE differed from leopard armor design philosophy in this crucial side turret wall thickness and what is the reason?

Ajrun turretd volumen, and armour mass. To mucht space is wasted in that turret.

Because until now there was no remarks on shortfalls in protection level of side turret armor by indian army, whether the IA gave specified a lower side armor thickness than the LEO or CVRDE made an error in design?

Well...error or not "error" maybe it was necessery due to mass reson?

For me only logical explanation lack of "special armour" protection on Ajrun sides is that Ajrun turet is big -to big, and volumen when special armour should to be placed is to big on that armour technology level avaible in India. So it was necessery to "cut" any possible volument whit "special armour" -only place on turret avaible for that are turret sides. Armour technology avaible in India not allow to use sucht big armour volument (or area covered by special armour).

 

[ersakthivel]

This is supposed to be arjun mk-1A.What is this Kunal Biswa

 

[methos]

This is the Leopard 2NG. Search for proper sources instead of using forums or blogs.

 

[Damian]

It is rather difficult to confuse Leopard 2 with Arjun.