Arjun vs T90 MBT

[Kunal Biswas]

I can assume several reasons why Mk1 do not have safe ammunition storage.

1) Design is not mature and ready... which is strange for a solution known for a such long time and very simple also.

This but we cannot say its easy, If it was easy it wouldn't be like this one..

As for Mk2, do you have any official and open source document that clearly says that Mk2 will have isolated turret ammunition compartment?

Its official..

Broadsword: Upcoming modifications on the Arjun Mark II

@Kunal,
It is correct that MK1 does not have blowout panels and they are being fitted only in MK2. It is not present even in T-72s and were first introduced in T-90S. Even earlier T-90 did not have them. So maybe this design feature was missed by indian designers. T-90S & T-90SM both have them as standard fit.

T-90S & T-90MS both use auto loader, The ammo i kept 360degree down at floor of crew compartment, Its fatal way to keep ammo as any spark from any side falls on the exposed plastic / fiber made propellents would trigger massive explosion, Unlike its not the same with Arjun as its ammo are kept in specific layout which is not vulnerable from all sides but specific angles..

^^ T-90S/ms auto-loader, Crew sits top of ammo..

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T-90S/MS Auto-loader and Ammo layout.. >>>>

^^ The above pic of T-80 tank but ammo layout is similar to T-90S/MS..

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Arjun MK-1/2 Ammo layout >>>

^^ The above pic of M1A2 but ammo layout is similar to Arjun MK1/2

 

[pmaitra]

Dunno if this explains the point, if I am not capable to explain this, perhaps methos is.

I do not see which two points on the central axis define the line that must always be protected.

Can you or @methos please mark those two points in the image and upload?

I just need two points marked.

 

[ersakthivel]

The round hole in the center is the crew compartment of arjun.

Notice the huge amount of width on both sides of round crew compartment hole for the turret side walls.

The crew holes for the entry of the tankmen in the flawed drawing below must be within the round hole in the hull center.

So how can one argue that the side turret of arjun has just 70 mm thick RHA ?

All seating arrangement and space for crew is restricted within this round hole only.

In fact the two platform like strips of rectangular hull length meant for bearing the turret sides besides the crew hole make up half of the hull width.


Then what occupies the entire amount of width on the sides of the hull besides the round hole for the crew?




Can people who post the pictures like the one below should have the decency to mark this crew compartment with a red circle .
And the base of the red circle should be taken as the horizontal datum for drawing angular lines of attack.

But what they are doing instead is to put the horizontal datum somewhere over the engine compartment.

If we measure the distance from the crew holes on the front of the tank to the horizontal datum line at the back of the turret in the wrong drawing of arjun posted below it will designate an area roughly 1.5 times the size of the actual crew compartment as crew zone.

But for t-90 the crew compartment is correctly covered and the lines are properly drawn.

Because in T-90 drawing the base of the crew compartment is used as the horizontal datumn.

People who post bogus proportion less drawings like this are no experts .They are just fakes.

it is foolish to argue about which zone is weaker even without knowing which zone needs better protection.

Infact the image for arjun has no relation to the dimensions and proportions of arjun,

Simply saying


1.the side protrusion of the frontal armor is intentionally shortened to 1/5 th of the turret length instead of true 1/3 rd of the length.
2.And the crew compartment and crew entry holes are far back in arjun.
3.But fake professionals are indulging the same kind of mudslinging without any regard to the dimensions and proportions of the tank.
4. Why they wont address this issue is their intention is to provide a wrong drawing to advance a wrong argument.

5.No professional worth his salt would produce such wrongly proportioned and wrongly dimensioned drawing and strut his stuff like an expert.
6.Even a second year mechanical engineering student can produce a better proportioned and accurately dimensioned drawing than this.
7.And drawing angle of attack lines on such a wrong drawing(in fact the drawing is a general drawing of any square turret MBT)
and stressing weak zones is even more hilarious attempt at covering their mischief.

Any

 

[Damian]

I do not see which two points on the central axis define the line that must always be protected.

Can you or @methos please mark those two points in the image and upload?

I just need two points marked.

The whole line define the zone that needs to be protected, from the visible one end to the second end of the visible longitudinal axis of turret.

Can people who post the pictures like the one below should have the decency to mark this crew compartment with a red circle .
And the base of the red circle should be taken as the horizontal datum for drawing angular lines of attack.

But what they are doing instead is to put the horizontal datum somewhere over the engine compartment.

If we measure the distance from the crew holes on the front of the tank to the horizontal datum line at the back of the turret in the wrong drawing of arjun posted below it will designate an area roughly 1.5 times the size of the actual crew compartment as crew zone.

But for t-90 the crew compartment is correctly covered and the lines are properly drawn.

Because in T-90 drawing the base of the crew compartment is used as the horizontal datumn.

People who post bogus proportion less drawings like this are no experts .They are just fakes.

it is foolish to argue about which zone is weaker even without knowing which zone needs better protection.

Infact the image for arjun has no relation to the dimensions and proportions of arjun,

Simply saying

You do not understand. How many times I will need to repeat a simple words?

The protection zone of 60 degrees is allways draw from the turret rear bulkhead, do you understand this? Not over engine compartment, but the damn turret rear, it is just that Arjun turret is longer and T-90S turret is shorter, smaller, more compact. How such simple fact is beyond your comprehending abilities, I do not understand. Well there is one explanation, but really do I need to say it?

1.the side protrusion of the frontal armor is intentionally shortened to 1/5 th of the turret length instead of true 1/3 rd of the length.
2.And the crew compartment and crew entry holes are far back in arjun.
3.But fake professionals are indulging the same kind of mudslinging without any regard to the dimensions and proportions of the tank.
4. Why they wont address this issue is their intention is to provide a wrong drawing to advance a wrong argument.

5.No professional worth his salt would produce such wrongly proportioned and wrongly dimensioned drawing and strut his stuff like an expert.
6.Even a second year mechanical engineering student can produce a better proportioned and accurately dimensioned drawing than this.
7.And drawing angle of attack lines on such a wrong drawing(in fact the drawing is a general drawing of any square turret MBT)
and stressing weak zones is even more hilarious attempt at covering their mischief.

1) Oh this is good, so designers intentionally made vehicle less protected, and you are saying it is a good thing? Perhaps someone in India should ask about true intentions of you and other fanboys? It seems that being a traitor dangerous for own nation, become a very easy goal these days.
2) Yeah, and this is why they are less protected.
3) Fake proffesionals? If not me, you would probably not even know most of the design details of Arjun mr. "proffesional".
4) No, it is only you, and people similiar to you, unable to comprehend reality... but it is not my fault.
5) Well you are definetly not an expert, I doubt that you ever read any proffesional book about tanks in your life.
6) Oh so now the argument is that drawing are not perfect? What will be next, that I am not from India? If you are so smart ass then produce some analisis about MBT's on yourself, based on credible and reliable data. I spent last 10 years of my life to educate myself about tanks, yeah I was a kid when I started to collect books and discuss with people with a much greater knowledge then I had... if you will spend at least the same time as I did, maybe then you will have a right to criticize me.
7) Well for fools perhaps yes, for educated people not.

 

[ersakthivel]

This but we cannot say its easy, If it was easy it wouldn't be like this one..



Its official..

Broadsword: Upcoming modifications on the Arjun Mark II




T-90S & T-90MS both use auto loader, The ammo i kept 360degree down at floor of crew compartment, Its fatal way to keep ammo as any spark from any side falls on the exposed plastic / fiber made propellents would trigger massive explosion, Unlike its not the same with Arjun as its ammo are kept in specific layout which is not vulnerable from all sides but specific angles..

^^ T-90S/ms auto-loader, Crew sits top of ammo..

=================
=================

T-90S/MS Auto-loader and Ammo layout.. >>>>

^^ The above pic of T-80 tank but ammo layout is similar to T-90S/MS..

----------------------------------

Arjun MK-1/2 Ammo layout >>>

^^ The above pic of M1A2 but ammo layout is similar to Arjun MK1/2

T-90 is always a powder keg waiting to explode just at the hint of any seep through explosion and sudden fire in the crew compartment.

 

[ersakthivel]

Arjun have ammo storage bins at chassis and a ten round bin in turret ready to fire..

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I will also add few more points, Arjun & Leopard series have many similarities not just external but also very internal..

Presently Arjun MK-1 dont have blast doors, Which is on all Leo A4/A5/A6/A7 and on, Blast door will come with MK2 version of Arjun..

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Two tank layouts tanks, Arjun MK1 & leo2 A4..

Arjun ammo containers are at back in chassis, Also their is ammo bin in turret but not Ammo in forward area as in leo 2..

@kunal biswaswhat is the distance between the crew hole and turret side wall in the first photo of yours?
Can you provide any information in this regard?

 

[pmaitra]

The whole line define the zone that needs to be protected, from the visible one end to the second end of the visible longitudinal axis of turret.

The visible ends are from the rear of the turret to the front end of the tank chassis, coinciding with the barrel.

Could you mark in a diagram? I am having difficulty understanding prose.

Thanks.

 

[ersakthivel]

The whole line define the zone that needs to be protected, from the visible one end to the second end of the visible longitudinal axis of turret.



You do not understand. How many times I will need to repeat a simple words?

The protection zone of 60 degrees is allways draw from the turret rear bulkhead, do you understand this? Not over engine compartment, but the damn turret rear, it is just that Arjun turret is longer and T-90S turret is shorter, smaller, more compact. How such simple fact is beyond your comprehending abilities, I do not understand. Well there is one explanation, but really do I need to say it?



1) Oh this is good, so designers intentionally made vehicle less protected, and you are saying it is a good thing? Perhaps someone in India should ask about true intentions of you and other fanboys? It seems that being a traitor dangerous for own nation, become a very easy goal these days.
2) Yeah, and this is why they are less protected.
3) Fake proffesionals? If not me, you would probably not even know most of the design details of Arjun mr. "proffesional".
4) No, it is only you, and people similiar to you, unable to comprehend reality... but it is not my fault.
5) Well you are definetly not an expert, I doubt that you ever read any proffesional book about tanks in your life.
6) Oh so now the argument is that drawing are not perfect? What will be next, that I am not from India? If you are so smart ass then produce some analisis about MBT's on yourself, based on credible and reliable data. I spent last 10 years of my life to educate myself about tanks, yeah I was a kid when I started to collect books and discuss with people with a much greater knowledge then I had... if you will spend at least the same time as I did, maybe then you will have a right to criticize me.
7) Well for fools perhaps yes, for educated people not.

What I asked you is what is the protection for the crew compartment because it is the most important thing in the tank?
Hits on the side back corners of arjun is insignificant as they wont matter because you dont have the slimmest idea of what is the side wall thickness and what is the real virtual thickness the intruding shell will encounter to pierce this side wall,
You are simply running away from debate?

If you are a true professional you pretend to be then produce a right proportioned right dimensioned drawing of ARJUn before accusing others of being a fanboy.
if you cant do this accept that you are one of those jacks of all trades roaming all over the net trying to fool people with pet MBT philosophies.
Which professional produces a fake drawing and tortures other members with even more fake explanations?

till this minute you are pretending that you don't even know the ground pressure per sq cm of ARJUN. SO how come you become the authority of the side turret wall?

I never produce fake drawings with bogus proportions and pretend being the expert. Mind it. If you dont have any correct proportional drawings of arjun accept it, why are you not accepting this simple truth?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

It happened, During an exercise a T-72B caught fire due to a spark which ignited the ammo at floor..

Crew perished, It said that crew didn't follow procedure correctly..

T-90 is always a powder keg waiting to explode just at the hint of any seep through explosion and sudden fire in the crew compartment.

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Didn't notice that but being in T-72 as well as Arjun, Arjun have more space..

@kunal biswaswhat is the distance between the crew hole and turret side wall in the first photo of yours?
Can you provide any information in this regard?

 

[ersakthivel]

From the above photo the distance (covered in white paint on the ceiling )between the side wall of the turret and the round crew hole above seems smaller not occupying the entire width on the two rectangular platform like side strips beside the round hole meant for crew compartment(shown below on the photo).

Since the crew holes must be directly on the round central hole area of the photograph below there must be more space there.if there is not more space then it must indicate some thick armor.

Only members of the tank crew and service people can shed some light on it.

 

[Damian]

What I asked you is what is the protection for the crew compartment because it is the most important thing in the tank?
Hits on the side back corners of arjun is insignificant as they wont matter because you dont have the slimmest idea of what is the side wall thickness and what is the real virtual thickness the intruding shell will encounter to pierce this side wall,
You are simply running away from debate?

No, I am not running from the debate... I am just debating with a complete imbecile who is not even capable to read with understanding what I write...

As I said, the turret sides of Arjun, not protected by composite armor ar something between ~70mm and ~100mm thick, at 30 degrees they will have increased thickness to approx ~140mm to ~200mm, which is insufficent even against older RPG's that have penetration capabilities over ~300mm of RHA. And there would be no problem if only crew compartment would be completely covered by composite armor, but it is not, protrusions are very short and do not provide enough protection at 30 degrees, which is typical for conventional tank vs tank combat.

Seriously, it is as simple as that... how many times I will need to repeat myself until you will finally understand? Perhaps you will never be capable to do so.

And a note to moderators, I am incredibly tired repeating myself over and over again, do not censor my post... please.

If you are a true professional you pretend to be then produce a right proportioned right dimensioned drawing of ARJUn before accusing others of being a fanboy.
if you cant do this accept that you are one of those jacks of all trades roaming all over the net trying to fool people with pet MBT philosophies.
Which professional produces a fake drawing and tortures other members with even more fake explanations?

till this minute you are pretending that you don't even know the ground pressure per sq cm of ARJUN. SO how come you become the authority of the side turret wall?

I never produce fake drawings with bogus proportions and pretend being the expert. Mind it. If you dont have any correct proportional drawings of arjun accept it, why are you not accepting this simple truth?

Are you kidding me kid? The turret side armor is relatively easy to estimate, I had a internal and external photos of a tank, and it piece a cake to make estimation of how thick is side turret armor. I really need to post this again...



Oh wiat, you don't even understand a simple drawing on photographs, you even claimed that gunner in Arjun is sitting in the left side of the turret, while his sights are placed at the right side, and he is sitting there below commander in reality, so how you are even capable to understand something such simple?

As for Arjun ground pressure, yeah it is not known, because there is no credible source about it, no book, no avaiable official army documentation, but I completely understand that a poorly educated peasant like you, that all the sudden get access to internet, is not even capable to comprehend a difference between a credible source, and something posted somewhere in the internet.

So yeah, you are a goddamn fanboy.

Damn, now he made me angry.

Important question!
@Kunal Biswas, do you have any photos of Arjun turret during welding process? Or at least photos of plate stocks used to weld turret?

 

[pmaitra]

@ersakthivel, @Damian does have a point there. The good news is we have space outside right behind front armour protection to add more side armour.

This will add weight, but let's hope our 1800 HP engine is ready.

 

[Damian]

The question is why it was not done earlier. Afterall the whole weight of Arjun is strange, it have similiar size to NATO MBT's, yet less armor on the turret, but weight is similiar.

Arjun Mk1 weights 58 tons, the same weight of M1A1 from 1985. Perhaps "Kanchan" armor is not only not space efficent like all composite armors, but is also less weight efficent? Which does not mean it is not effective protection, but at time when Arjun was designed, to reduce weight below 60 tons, there was a need to reduce protection of turret sides.

The only way to answer this question, what is the weight of Indian made T-90S? It is 46 tons or more?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

No, there is not much info from factory inside..

Important question!
@Kunal Biswas, do you have any photos of Arjun turret during welding process? Or at least photos of plate stocks used to weld turret?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@Damian, You recheak the info i provided ArjunMK-1 vs Indian Made T-90S, T-90S made in India have unusual high ground pressure than Russian made onces, this gives us a hint..

Indian Made T-90S : 0.94
Russian Made T-90S : 0.87

The only way to answer this question, what is the weight of Indian made T-90S? It is 46 tons or more?

 

[Damian]

Ok I made additional effort, this should be a very hard proof.

 

[Damian]

@Damian, You recheak the info i provided ArjunMK-1 vs Indian Made T-90S, T-90S made in India have unusual high ground pressure than Russian made onces, this gives us a hint..

Indian Made T-90S : 0.94
Russian Made T-90S : 0.87

Aha!

Great info Kunal, great thanks. If their ground pressure is higher than Russian ones, it might suggest that "Kanchan" is less weight efficent, which means that to provide enough protection, it needs to be densier and thus heavier, perhaps it does not have even a design of NERA but is more passive? So the weight issues might stand behind such turret design in Arjun.
@methos, any suggestions?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@Damian, the blue is periscope..

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Regarding side thickness, Its no more than 5cm thick at most, Which is simple RHA steel and its thin compare to what AT can throw at it..

 

[Damian]

@Kunal Biswas, yeah I know, but there, in deep, behind is a something that appears to be ventilation port, which armored cover can be seen on the turret roof from outside.

And it seems that I am more kind for Arjun, estimating it's side turret armor as something between ~70-100mm, while Kunal says ~50mm, but without meassuring it on a real tank, the exact thickness still will be a sort of mystery, though we are very close to the truth.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I will post what we know about Kanchan Armour :

We know now that Kanchan Employ titanium alloy in plates and boron carbide bricks, Its design is similar to Burlington armor

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Regarding Nano tech :

BHU develops metal for revolutionising defence technology | India - Oneindia News

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Regarding Hybrid Armour :

The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Main News

IMI have its inputs here..