Arjun vs T90 MBT

[Decklander]

T-90 is already part of the Armoured corps now guys criticising it won't make much difference 6 more regiments have been ordered.

We are not USSR to maintain a two tier armoured force so its most probably Arjun will be like in a "guest appearance" we like it or not.

However if the R&D done will be useful in developing a tank industry I believe it would be worth it otherwise its better to stop wasting money.

Since 2004, this nation is being ruled by the agents of russians and our armed forces get direct orders from MOD to tweek tenders for to suit some selected suppliers only. But the problem is that very very few officers at lower level are willing to be corrupted and that is a big big problem for the baboos of MOD and this russian agent.
If we have BJP in power as next Govt, all this will change. Russians are already doing thr best to cosy up to NAMO.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@militarysta, these are not pressurized containers and very different for MK-1 once..

Leo2A5 dont have pressurized container either ?

I can.
Photos in Mark II Merkava:

 

[pmaitra]

A kinetic energy penetrator, if it can defeat the armor, generally causes spalling within the target as well, which helps to destroy/disable the vehicle and/or its crew

This is an unsupported claim. At the end of this statement, there is a reference. Click that, go to that article (how stuff works), and do a Ctrl+F on "spall."

@methos

Besides, I am still waiting for that diagram.

 

[Damian]

@militarysta, these are not pressurized containers and very different for MK-1 once..

Leo2A5 dont have pressurized container either ?

Pressurized containers won't help much, because containers if armor is perforated, are also perforated, so they can just blow, such containers can't have blow off panels, so pressurized do not mean better, the explosion can be spectacular in such case.

As for Leopard 2, 15 rounds are stored in isolated ammunition compartment with blow off panels at the turret bustle, and 27 are stored in simple ammunition rack in hull to the left of driver.

@pmaitra look at one of my previous posts, there are photos of projectiles (APFSDS and HEAT) during armor perforation process, spall is clearly visible.

 

[militarysta]

@
pmaitra

Yes, I can read. Did you see the term "projectile impact?" Do you even understand what that means?

Go back to the link and read what is written under Antitank Warfare. Why not share it with everyone?

Please do smth for humanity and read that pdf:

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008ballistics/Thursday/Held.pdf

and that:
http://www.mater.upm.es/isb2007/Proceedings/PDF/Volume_2/Vol.II(53)TB40.pdf

and that:
mercury.ethz.ch/serviceengine/Files/ISN/130627/ichaptersection_singledocument/5aa0e382-1cfa-46d0-9818-c585016af144/en/Chapt4.pdf
Or from here: Behind Armour Effects of Explosively Formed Projectiles

and that:
http://www.mater.upm.es/isb2007/Proceedings/PDF/Volume_2/Vol.II(81)TB90.pdf

and that:
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA341500

Becouse Methos have right in that thema.

Oh, and read that pdf:
BEHIND ARMOR DEBRIS DISTRIBUTION AFTER KE ROD PERFORATION OF RHA PLATES FOR DISTINCT OVERMATCH CONDITIONS
Karl Weber
Fraunhofer Ernst-Mach-Institut (EMI), Eckerstrasse 4, 79104 Freiburg, Germany;
http://www.mater.upm.es/isb2007/Proceedings/PDF/Volume_2/Vol.II(32)TB73.pdf

 

[JBH22]

Since 2004, this nation is being ruled by the agents of russians and our armed forces get direct orders from MOD to tweek tenders for to suit some selected suppliers only. But the problem is that very very few officers at lower level are willing to be corrupted and that is a big big problem for the baboos of MOD and this russian agent.
If we have BJP in power as next Govt, all this will change. Russians are already doing thr best to cosy up to NAMO.

Do you know that acquisition of T-90,Barak missile, Israeli awacs was negotiated under the auspices of Georges Fernandes that is BJP MoD.

I'm fed of conspiracy theories its better to stop living in denial mode the T-90 is by far entrenched in Indian army now there's not much we can do about it. to go for two tier tank force is economic suicide we just cannot afford it

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Obviously it dont have blow-panels.. !

But my point is if it hit directly it will go off but if not hit directly it wont, Unlike this is not the same for T-72/90 series tanks with Auto-loaders..

Pressurized containers won't help much, because containers if armor is perforated, are also perforated, so they can just blow, such containers can't have blow off panels,

 

[Damian]

Obviously it dont have blow-panels.. !

But my point is if it hit directly it will go off but if not hit directly it wont, Unlike this is not the same for T-72/90 series tanks with Auto-loaders..

Yes, although I think that additional tests on complete tanks should be done. Also do Indian Army tests insensitive ammunition properlants? I know that Germans and Americans are using such ammunition or is still in development phase. Such ammunition greatly minimize risk of cook offs. I also heard rumors that Russians are experimenting with such ammunition.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Such reports are confidential not for open internet..

Though test are done at ARDE facilities, I will post any info about such development if published..

---------------------

Such development will surely save lives..

Yes, although I think that additional tests on complete tanks should be done. Also do Indian Army tests insensitive ammunition properlants? I know that Germans and Americans are using such ammunition or is still in development phase. Such ammunition greatly minimize risk of cook offs. I also heard rumors that Russians are experimenting with such ammunition.

 

[Damian]

@Kunal Biswas, I think @militarysta had some interesting materials about insensitive ammunition.




I found some.

 

[Decklander]

gentlemen, I requested this thread and the modes gave me this. I want replies to my post #349. That is more important than all this blabber. We now have settled the point that Operational Arjuns have better turret protection than T-90. Can we move on with war tactics and how Arjun is far far superior to T-90 in that department?

 

[Damian]

We now have settled the point that Operational Arjuns have better turret protection than T-90.

Maybe you settled, the fact is that Arjun and T-90 per se have the same protection of turret sides, which means a carboard armor for todays anti tank ammunition (at least compared to the big 4 of NATO MBT's), only T-90S have better turret geometry for such armor placement.

 

[militarysta]

@pmaitra

again for you:
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA441907

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2007im_em/BBriefs/3Sharp.pdf

 

[Decklander]

Maybe you settled, the fact is that Arjun and T-90 per se have the same protection of turret sides, which means a carboard armor for todays anti tank ammunition (at least compared to the big 4 of NATO MBT's), only T-90S have better turret geometry for such armor placement.

Can we agree to disagree on this point and move forward? I had requested this thread for a specific purpose to discuss battle worthiness and capabilities of only Arjun & T-90S.
May we now have your comments on my post # 349?

 

[Damian]

Yeah... it is completely insane to compare a tank to battle elephant. And even more insane are dreams about "undefeatable tank".

There is a widely known fact in the west and former soviet union, that weight is not a meassure of protection of vehicle, weight is just effect of how big internal volume of vehicle that needs to be protected + weight of armor that needs to cover it (the bigger it is, the heavier it is) + weight of internal and external components (be it mechanical or electronic) of vehicle.

So the fact is that the vehicle itself my look big from external view, but the internal volume should be as small as possible, without reducing significantly crew comfort.

If you would compare NATO MBT's that have size similiar to Arjun, you would be shocked to know, that they are much less spacious inside. This is done that way, to maintain reasonable weight, and achieve high protection levels.

As for tactics, IMHO the best tactics in using AFV's have NATO and Israel, both closely cooperated in this manner, and these are the ones from whom everyone should learn.
@militarysta is close to our guys from 10th Armored Cavalry Brigade of Polish Army that from the former soviet model, transitioned to the NATO model of structure and training. I think he can say a lot of things about these issues, and why NATO model is better.

 

[pmaitra]

In 1970, the US Army tested HEP, Sabot, and HEAT. The term "Spalling" was used ONLY in case of HEP.

So @militarysta, please do humanity a favour are read the article, and @methos, please don't throw terms around.

Link: U.S. Tank Ammo Tests

Edit, discussion: http://208.84.116.223/forums/index.php?showtopic=18117

 

[Damian]

Well Militarysta provided much more documents, one written by Manfred Held... you should know how was mr. Held.

And DTIC site is far more credible, as it is official goverment source.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/

Here, link to DTIC site, you can search yourself.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a045585.pdf

And here a first official document from 1977, about spall with shaped charge jet (HEAT warhead) penetrating armor.

 

[pmaitra]

^^

As I told @methos, first time I am hearing spalling as the effect of Sabot. Thanks for the links, will read them tonight.

 

[militarysta]

In 1970, the US Army tested HEP, Sabot, and HEAT. The term "Spalling" was used ONLY in case of HEP.

So @militarysta, please do humanity a favour are read the article,

Sorry but you get linkt to the what acually? To one short web page without sources.
Are you kidding me?

Did you mentioned "small" diffrencs between your one small web page and my sources -dozen od pdfs written between 1987-2010 and all od them ae about debritsand spall beyond armour. Your sources is weak and..in fact it's not a source. I provide sources, and Methos have right,and your argument was invaild.Sorry but you are in mistake.


You had wrote "Spalling happens with HEP rounds, not AP rounds as you claim." sory but it is not true and spalls and debrits are present in APFSDS, SC and other amunition.

ps. Did you read even one of that pdfs?

 

[Damian]

Well apparentely he didn't read them... oh how easy it comes to criticize the three of us, when nobody reads what we provide.