Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[bengalraider]

Leopard 2A6 does indeed have sloped armour.

The turret is highly sloped only on front side.It is also same for Challnger2. What will happen if the hit is on left, right or rear side? The tank will blow up like a T series tank ?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Challenger_II.jpg

there are actually two questions in your query
1)will sloped armor in the front protect the tank from all sides?
the answer obviously is NO
Sloped armor is primarily designed for head on battles i.e when tank to tank engagements take place at fairly close ranges,modern ATGM's such as the nag tend to attack from the top where armor is the thinnest(except on the LEO2A6HEL).
2)will a LEO 2 or a chally blow up like a T series tank?
No this is because that unlike the T series here ammo is kept in a separate turret bustle and hence s not as prone to blowing up as on the T series, as for the chally read for urself

In one encounter in Iraq, one Challenger 2 was hit by 8 RPGs in close range and one MILAN anti-tank missile and managed to escape to be repaired.

http://www.futurefirepower.com/the-...innovation-in-armored-vehicles-tested-in-iraq
later a challenger was penetrated by that god of RPG's the RPG-29

 

[Dark Sorrow]

our T-90 contain the kanchan

First T-90s containg kanchan are just wild internet rumors. IA has n
not yet confirmed it. I would like to tell you that just changing armour composition have grave implication and here you are planning to change armour type. This can't be done without restructing the tank itself. Do you the fact that adding ERA to a tank affects its performance(hence Abrams avoid using ERA) and while designing a tank needs to be for the same(the T-XX series(here ERA is part of regular package), Merkava, etc.).

also next generation ERA

Which next generation ERA, T-90s are protected by Konkat-5 a 3[sup]rd[/sup] generation ERA.
US M829A2 or German DM 53 KEP and easily penetrate Kontakt-5 to which Russians developed Relikt ERA which provide double the Kontakt-5 protection but it is not brought by us. DM 63 and M829 A3 are response to Relik ERA.

russia's dint buy t-90 cos their economy dint allow them to

Russian don't want T-90 because they know it is not good and want to invest in FMBT.
I even got this info from some people i know who have fired from T-90, T-72 and Arjun. The level of peneration depends on several factors like height from which the round is fired, the height at which the target striked, wind, being a rifled gun how many rounds have been fired, various angles, temperature of gun/barrel/surrounding, humidity, pressure developed etc. They say
live round with EFC from Arjun penetrates from 650mm to 725mm, above 700mm of the round starts to suffer from mushrooming effect. The rounds used by IA for T-90 penetrate 600mm to 650mm while the rounds from older T-72 penetrate 400mm-530mm.

 

[Armand2REP]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Challenger_II.jpg[/URL]

It is also sloped on the right and left sides of the turret. It is made for the most likely aspects of a hit which will come from the front. If it is hit from the sides the copper will try and punch a hole, if it is successful it will burn everyone alive in the tank hull.

 

[notinlove]

First T-90s containg kanchan are just wild internet rumors. IA has n

Well so are a lot of other things namely
1. the price of T-90 is 17.5 crore .or
2.the army sabotaged arjun.
its just what you choose to believe..... can't be proven now can it.

not yet confirmed it. I would like to tell you that just changing armour composition have grave implication and here you are planning to change armour type. This can't be done without restructing the tank itself. Do you the fact that adding ERA to a tank affects its performance(hence Abrams avoid using ERA) and while designing a tank needs to be for the same(the T-XX series(here ERA is part of regular package), Merkava, etc.).

it affects performance whne the tank is not made for it...for T-90 the performance figures are given after taking ERA into account as it is a part of the original package , so saying ERA affects it T-90's performance is like saying chassis affects a cars performance.

Which next generation ERA, T-90s are protected by Konkat-5 a 3[sup]rd[/sup] generation ERA.

only 310 are T-90S with kontakt-5...the rest 1330 are T-90M with KAKTUS era.

US M829A2 or German DM 53 KEP and easily penetrate Kontakt-5 to which Russians developed Relikt ERA which provide double the Kontakt-5 protection but it is not brought by us. DM 63 and M829 A3 are response to Relik ERA.

All fine and dandy ... but does this prove that T-90's armour protection is worse than that of arjun?

and Btw .. incase you've forgotten.. we are not and will not be in a forseeable fighting Leo's or Abrams...

Russian don't want T-90 because they know it is not good and want to invest in FMBT.

Yeah you would know better.

I even got this info from some people i know who have fired from T-90, T-72 and Arjun. The level of peneration depends on several factors like height from which the round is fired, the height at which the target striked, wind, being a rifled gun how many rounds have been fired, various angles, temperature of gun/barrel/surrounding, humidity, pressure developed etc. They say
live round with EFC from Arjun penetrates from 650mm to 725mm, above 700mm of the round starts to suffer from mushrooming effect. The rounds used by IA for T-90 penetrate 600mm to 650mm while the rounds from older T-72 penetrate 400mm-530mm.

Refleks penetrates 700-750mm

 

[notinlove]

a very useful piece of information that i found.......

A state-of-the-art weapon and ammunition system has been developed by the DRDO for the Main Battle Tank (MBT) Arjun by adopting novel design concepts and latest technological advancement at par with the industrially advanced countries. The system is capable of destroying modern heavy targets up to a range of 5000 m. All aspects leading to ergonomics, product reliability, maintenance, ease of operation, and futuristic performance enhancement have been incorporated in the design of the system.
http://www.drdo.org/pub/techfocus/feb02/arjun.htm

Straight from the horses mouth.. that settles the range issue.

 

[notinlove]

you re pasted the same article

 

[ppgj]

the manufacturer claims 8 km max range including attack platform as helo...and the longest it has ever hit is 7 km .. that too when launched from a cobra helo.... i dont know why i should believe anything else.

you beleive russians on their claims easily while you raise doubts about the israelis about their claims when i have already given a link which says it has been tested and approved in india.

the design flaw is there.....but is it really a design flaw? if the shrapnel is going through the crew cabin and then reaching the ammo dump .. i doubt it will spare the crew members in any case .
and by the highlighted logic .. T-90 has 2 complete layers of armour .. and one of them is said to be the same kanchan armour ;)

kanchan armour!! means they have to come back to DRDO for protection!! good.

ERA is designed to act outwardly to the incoming threats. hence most of the shrapnels post hit will fly away from the tank and to the sides. even if some do make it, they would have reduced KE to really make a difference.

the bigger danger ERA presents is to the tank support team. they have to keep a lot more distance away from the tanks.

A further complication to the use of ERA is the inherent danger to anybody near the tank when a plate detonates (disregarding that a HEAT warhead explosion would already present a great danger to anybody near the tank). Although ERA plates are intended only to bulge following detonation, the combined energy of the ERA explosive, coupled with the kinetic or explosive energy of the projectile, will frequently cause explosive fragmentation of the plate. The explosion of an ERA plate creates a significant amount of shrapnel, and bystanders are in grave danger of serious or fatal injury. As a result, infantry needs to operate some distance from vehicles protected by ERA in combined arms operations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_armour

the future belongs to NERA, which drdo has already developed and is working fine. the link for which i have already given many times.

Can somebody anybody .. anywhere in the world .. gimme a shred of evidence that the cost has ballooned to 17.5 crore without taking the APS, and support vehicles into account?..as per my comprehension Mr. shukla is calculating the cost by taking into account the cost of APS , support vehicles , even the missiles and then stating it as 17.5 crores.

you claimed categorically that the T-90 tank cost includes the support vehicles cost and you quoted Ajai shukla in support of it. now you say it is your comprehension!!

That was back in 1999 .. the russians have jumped 2 whole generations in ERA since then namely the kaktus and relikt..and nobody makes better ERA than the russians..moreover the armour beneath the era is also vastly superior in the T-90 when compared to T-80.. so i sincerely believe that the T-90 beats T-80 in terms of protection hands down.our thermals are better than theirs...guns are similar ..

right. but what makes you think pakistan's T-80 still only sports kontakt?? they would also have moved on from there considering they operate in "india specific" way??

even their protection becomes a case when they are hit!! our T-90's are way underpowered so we should be talking mobility and maneuorability before we talk of hitting T-80's.

an APU alone will not guarantee their superiority.

when did i say APU alone means superiority. what it does is allowing the tank to operate in silent mode which, besides saving fuel, reduces thermal signature - which is a big factor, whether you beleive it or not.

 

[notinlove]

you beleive russians on their claims easily while you raise doubts about the israelis about their claims when i have already given a link which says it has been tested and approved in india.

]
Read above Drdo claims the range for arjun gun as 5km. The pafe at IAI says lahat has a max range of 8 km from a helo .. that means lesser range from a land based platform.... and here is something else

This image has been posted about a zillion times on this thread to declare the supremacy of arjun... take a closer look as to what is the range of lahat being touted here.it might have been tested and approved .... but was it tested at 8 km ?i doubt it .. because even in israel it has been tested at only 7 km.. that too from a cobra helo

kanchan armour!! means they have to come back to DRDO for protection!! good.

ERA is designed to act outwardly to the incoming threats. hence most of the shrapnels post hit will fly away from the tank and to the sides. even if some do make it, they would have reduced KE to really make a difference.

the bigger danger ERA presents is to the tank support team. they have to keep a lot more distance away from the tanks.

There is no such thing as a free lunch.when you are getting protection comparable to a 60 tonne tank in a 47 tonne tank .. and saving on logistics and fuel costs and getting better range .. you have to sacrifice something.. a change in tactics .. which i believe IA is already following.. just keep your troops a little more away from the tanks... and moreover we are getting APS which reduces this effect by destroying the incoming projectile from the side and reducing shrapnel effect.

the future belongs to NERA, which drdo has already developed and is working fine. the link for which i have already given many times.

Now dont get me started on this . will they take another 37 years to make it operational? until unless its operational , don't quote it.

you claimed categorically that the T-90 tank cost includes the support vehicles cost and you quoted Ajai shukla in support of it. now you say it is your comprehension!!

I claim that the cost of a T-90 made in india is 12 crore. untill unless you can prove otherwise from a government source it stays the same.

and i comprehend that the 17.5 crore cost that shukla is talking about is with APS , support vehicles, and missiles. Clear enough?


Pakistani T-80s in the next post...

 

[notinlove]

right. but what makes you think pakistan's T-80 still only sports kontakt?? they would also have moved on from there considering they operate in "india specific" way??

even their protection becomes a case when they are hit!! our T-90's are way underpowered so we should be talking mobility and maneuorability before we talk of hitting T-80's.

I think you are a bit over concerned about the pakistani T-80's

T-80UD: Version produced in Ukraine with a 1000-hp diesel engine instead of the turbine engine, and 1st generation ERA. In August 1996 Pakistan placed an order for 320 T-80UD MBTs under a deal worth about $580 million, and the first 15 were delivered in February 1997.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/t-80.htm

Thye don't have the 1250 hp gas turbine , they have a 1000 hp turbo diesel. and considering they bought em with first generation ERA .... i wouldn't worry too much .. as the russians never part with their ERA technology ( they didn't do it for india!!!) ... and as previously said .. nobody makes better ERA than the russians.

when did i say APU alone means superiority. what it does is allowing the tank to operate in silent mode which, besides saving fuel, reduces thermal signature - which is a big factor, whether you beleive it or not.

Obviously an APU gives some superiority . i agreed to that earlier .. but i say again just an APU does not make T-80's better than the T-90.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Well so are a lot of other things namely
1. the price of T-90 is 17.5 crore

The actual total unit cost of T-90 is classified but i can give you some homework. Go to the T-90 page on wiki add the total ammound spend and divide it with total tanks purchased or built. You will get an approximate unit cost.

2.the army sabotaged arjun.

This what DRDO claims and some element of media claim.

its just what you choose to believe..... can't be proven now can it.

The statement provided by you doesn't have backing and as a matter of fact DRDO has a better standing than you in international arena, doesn't it!!!

it affects performance whne the tank is not made for it...for T-90 the performance figures are given after taking ERA into account as it is a part of the original package , so saying ERA affects it T-90's performance is like saying chassis affects a cars performance.

You should read my most carefully, I said for T-90 ERA is part of original armour package while for Arjun ERA is an addon and hence Arjun's performance is affected. Do you know the fact that Merkava Mk. 3 was modified to allow ERA without hindering performance.

All fine and dandy ... but does this prove that T-90's armour protection is worse than that of arjun?

Man, you are the only person rattling that Arjun is not better protected than T-90.

and Btw .. incase you've forgotten.. we are not and will not be in a forseeable fighting Leo's or Abrams...

So want to wait till our enemies get Leo. or Abrams!!!
What about Type 98/99. It is a very good tank and comparable to western counterparts in many aspect.
I would also like to say your attitude of comparasion is wrong. Only because our neighbour can't afford Abrams doesn't mean we settle for a inferior tank. By your logic if you have a fight with neighbour who can't afford anything more than a cycle and you can afford a BMW, then this should not stop you from getting a BMW.

Yeah you would know better.

Any dumba$$ can figure that out. You are telling me that even with so much money coming from oil they can't buy T-90 and mind you Russian economic crisis is long over.

Refleks penetrates 700-750mm

LAHAT missile can penetrate 800 mm of RHA at range far greater than Refleks and also DM63 is able to penetrate 800mm at 2km.

 

[ppgj]

]
This image has been posted about a zillion times on this thread to declare the supremacy of arjun...
take a closer look as to what is the range of lahat being touted here.it might have been tested and approved ....
but was it tested at 8 km ?i doubt it .. because even in israel it has been tested at only 7 km.. that too from a cobra helo

you never get such figures about tests and ranges achieved in open source. most of them will be classified. the fact that they have been tested and are on Arjun tank does say something that you or me can ever get from open source info.

The new missile recently passed field tests and live firing from Arjun tanks in India, and IAI has signed an agreement for local production of the missile. The Indian Army expects to take delivery of all 124 Arjun units on order, by early 2006.

http://www.defense-update.com/events/2004/summary/defexpo04armor.htm#lahat

There is no such thing as a free lunch.when you are getting protection comparable to a 60 tonne tank in a 47 tonne tank ..

of course there is no free lunch except that Arjun is a result the army's GSQR!! besides the fight between T-90 and Arjun is precisely for being IA's MBT!! hence the comparison.

and saving on logistics and fuel costs and getting better range ..

Arjun uses modular design hence easy on maintainence and hence a major factor in logistics chain. Arjun may consume extra fuel but it saves via APU too!! besides outclassing the T-90 on most parameters which are more important for winning the war.

you have to sacrifice something.. a change in tactics ..
which i believe IA is already following.. just keep your troops a little more away from the tanks...

they have to. there is no other way.

and moreover we are getting APS which reduces this effect by destroying the incoming projectile from the side and reducing shrapnel effect.

so will Arjun!!

Now dont get me started on this . will they take another 37 years to make it operational? until unless its operational , don't quote it.

no need to be sarcastic. the links have been given in the past and were tested and were working perfectly in 2007!!

if you disagree, i have no problem.

I claim that the cost of a T-90 made in india is 12 crore. untill unless you can prove otherwise from a government source it stays the same.

and i comprehend that the 17.5 crore cost that shukla is talking about is with APS , support vehicles, and missiles. Clear enough?

ok. why don't you give a govt. source which says 17.5 crore includes the supporting vehicles as you said before and comprehended later.

ps : will answer T-80 later.

 

[ppgj]

I think you are a bit over concerned about the pakistani T-80's

well, i am an indian.

however i am more concerned about IA which resists a superior tank to an inferior one!!

Thye don't have the 1250 hp gas turbine , they have a 1000 hp turbo diesel. and considering they bought em with first generation ERA .... i wouldn't worry too much .. as the russians never part with their ERA technology ( they didn't do it for india!!!) ... and as previously said .. nobody makes better ERA than the russians.

wrong.

The power pack is at the rear and consists of a model 6TD-2 diesel developing 1,200 hp with a 1,500 hp version currently under development, coupled to a new mechanical transmission with seven forward and one reverse gears. An APU is mounted at the rear of the hull on the left side.

Power-to-weight ratio: 26.08 hp/t

http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/army/tanks/t80ud.html

of course you may choose not to accept. but my concern for our army stays.

as for ERA, i don't agree that pakistan will still have 1st gen ERA.

Obviously an APU gives some superiority . i agreed to that earlier .. but i say again just an APU does not make T-80's better than the T-90.

but i have never said APU alone gives them superiority. it is one among other factors i quoted.

 

[notinlove]

just to settle the matter of price once and for all........

While some T-90 tanks were procured directly from Russia at a cost of Rs. 110 million in 2001, the issue price of indigenous tanks for the current year is Rs.120 million.

defence Minister A.K. Antony said in a written reply in the Lok Sabha.
http://news.indiamart.com/news-analysis/defence-in-parliamen-14146.html

Now if anybody can prove anything otherwise they are most welcome

 

[notinlove]

The actual total unit cost of T-90 is classified but i can give you some homework. Go to the T-90 page on wiki add the total ammound spend and divide it with total tanks purchased or built. You will get an approximate unit cost.

Like shit its classified .. read the above post and feast on it . and don't ya think you are the prof that you can gimme homework.

This what DRDO claims and some element of media claim.


The statement provided by you doesn't have backing and as a matter of fact DRDO has a better standing than you in international arena, doesn't it!!!

Indian Army has better standing than DRDO. period, and if you have a proof of the sabotage then bring it , other wise put a sock in the hole.

You should read my most carefully, I said for T-90 ERA is part of original armour package while for Arjun ERA is an addon and hence Arjun's performance is affected. Do you know the fact that Merkava Mk. 3 was modified to allow ERA without hindering performance.

i dint say anything different , ERA on T-90 does not affect its performance but on arjun it will , i agree

Man, you are the only person rattling that Arjun is not better protected than T-90.

You havent proved otherwise , with all your rattling too.

So want to wait till our enemies get Leo. or Abrams!!!
What about Type 98/99. It is a very good tank and comparable to western counterparts in many aspect.
I would also like to say your attitude of comparasion is wrong. Only because our neighbour can't afford Abrams doesn't mean we settle for a inferior tank. By your logic if you have a fight with neighbour who can't afford anything more than a cycle and you can afford a BMW, then this should not stop you from getting a BMW.

now that is the most stupidest thing i have ever heard, we are not america .. that we can manage thousands of heavy MBT's .. we still figure 128 on the HDI .. we need to save money and use it judiciously.. the point in simple language for your simple mind is INDIA CANNOT AFFORD A BMW wake up!!

Any dumba$$ can figure that out. You are telling me that even with so much money coming from oil they can't buy T-90 and mind you Russian economic crisis is long over.

Yeah and you did.. that makes you a dumba$$. india bought T-90 in 2000 , russia was in deep shit back then .. its 2010.. why would they buy a 10 year old tank now when their economy is good... so the reason is economic.

LAHAT missile can penetrate 800 mm of RHA at range far greater than Refleks and also DM63 is able to penetrate 800mm at 2km.

yeah 50 mm more .. big deal .. and i have discussed the range in other posts . go figure.

 

[notinlove]

you never get such figures about tests and ranges achieved in open source. most of them will be classified. the fact that they have been tested and are on Arjun tank does say something that you or me can ever get from open source info.

Actually the info is quite open source
http://www.iai.co.il/31015-37347-en/Business_Areas_Military_Land_Precision_Munitions.aspx?btl=1
IAI only claims the range as 8 km... and any common sense will tell us that this is the max range.. and the max range is obviously from a higher platform i.E a helo...so expecting it to be 8 km from a land based platform . is stretching your imagination a bit too far.
moreover even drdo claims the range of arjun gun as 5 km .. read previous posts.

of course there is no free lunch except that Arjun is a result the army's GSQR!! besides the fight between T-90 and Arjun is precisely for being IA's MBT!! hence the comparison.

i am not getting into gsqr debates , because i believe that the user holds the right to cancel the project at any point of time he likes if he has paid for the development costs upto that point of time .. and in this case as drdo is a company funded by goverment so the army holds the right to do as it pleases.. i know you'r beliefs are different .. but this is one thing where we would have to agree to disagree

Arjun uses modular design hence easy on maintainence and hence a major factor in logistics chain. Arjun may consume extra fuel but it saves via APU too!! besides outclassing the T-90 on most parameters which are more important for winning the war.

may i know what are these special modular features?AFAIK all modern MBT's use some or the other sort of modular design.

they have to. there is no other way.

In a similar way they would have to have more support vehicles when they are using the arjun , so both have their advantages and disadvantages , no free lunch

no need to be sarcastic. the links have been given in the past and were tested and were working perfectly in 2007!!

if you disagree, i have no problem.

There is no point in agreeing or disagreeing , its not operational , and until it is , don't count it as a part of arjun.

ok. why don't you give a govt. source which says 17.5 crore includes the supporting vehicles as you said before and comprehended later.

why don't you prove that it is 17.5 crore, without support vehicles.

 

[notinlove]

well, i am an indian.

however i am more concerned about IA which resists a superior tank to an inferior one!!



wrong.



Power-to-weight ratio: 26.08 hp/t

http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/army/tanks/t80ud.html

of course you may choose not to accept. but my concern for our army stays.

as for ERA, i don't agree that pakistan will still have 1st gen ERA.



but i have never said APU alone gives them superiority. it is one among other factors i quoted.

i suggest you read your own source once again , the figures you have provided are for T-84 and not T-80UD .. your own source explicitly says T-80UD has a 1000 hp engine.

as for ERA there is hardly any proof that they have done anything in that field .. and to say that they would have made comparable progress to the russians , in a field in which they have been active since the sixties is profanity.

 

[ppgj]

just to settle the matter of price once and for all........

Now if anybody can prove anything otherwise they are most welcome

that is 2006 news. no body denies that. but what T-90 includes in that package is the bone of contention and which is why Ajai shukla came up with the investigative report which puts the cost at 17.5 CRORE a piece, including the missing systems from the earlier agreement putting the cost at 12 crore.

snippets from his report -

On November 30, 2006, the MoD told the Lok Sabha that the T-90 tank cost Rs 12 crore apiece. Parliament does not yet know about the 50 per cent rise in cost.

To bypass his opposition, the MoD and the army reached an understanding with Rosvoorouzhenie, Russia’s arms export agency. The T-90 would be priced only marginally higher than the T-72 by removing key T-90 systems; India would procure those through supplementary contracts after the T-90 entered service. Excluded from India’s T-90s was the Shtora active protection system, which protects the T-90 from incoming enemy missiles. This was done knowing well that Pakistan’s anti-tank defences are based heavily on missiles.

All this allowed the government to declare before Parliament that the Russian T-90s cost just Rs 11 crore, while the assembled-in-India T-90s were Rs 12 crore apiece.

The MoD did not mention that these prices would rise when the supplementary contracts were negotiated. Nor did it reveal that India’s pared-down T-90s barely matched the performance of the Pakistan Army’s recently acquired T-80 UD tank, which India had cited as the threat that demanded the T-90.

With Russia playing hardball, none of the supplementary contracts have yet gone through. The TI sights remain a problem. The army has decided to fit each T-90 with an Environment Control System, to cool the delicate electronics with a stream of chilled air. None of the world’s current tanks, other than France’s LeClerc, has such a system. The American Abrams and the British Challenger tanks fought in the Iraq desert without air-conditioning. India’s Arjun tank, too, has “hardened” electronics that function perfectly even in the Rajasthan summer.

Nor has the MoD managed to procure the Shtora anti-missile system. The Directorate General of Mechanised Forces now plans to equip India’s eventual 1,657-tank T-90 fleet with the advanced ARENA active protection system, for which it has budgeted Rs 2,500 crore in the Army Acquisition Plan for 2009-11.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/02/t-90-tank-piercing-armys-armour-of.html

Ajai shukla is only one of the handful of india's best known defence journalists, besides being a ex-man from the army and a tank man!! he needs to be commended for showing the courage to fight the injustice being meted out to Arjun tank.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Like shit its classified .. read the above post and feast on it . and don't ya think you are the prof that you can gimme homework.

I think you should do your homework before. The price of Rs. 110 mil. you gave was of 2001 and it become Rs. 120 mil. in 2006 and this is 2010. You can expect increase in price. All this price are just manufacturing price. You should also add the extra money spent to acquire ToT for barel, AC units brought, Thermal Sights and several such sub-system. There are even rumors that we don't have ToT for ERA. It will cost more to get APS.

Indian Army has better standing than DRDO. period, and if you have a proof of the sabotage then bring it , other wise put a sock in the hole.

Just search on google you will get all your proof.
Here is a link

Minister hints at sabotage in Arjun tank trials
As a matter of fact IA never commented on this issue.

i dint say anything different , ERA on T-90 does not affect its performance but on arjun it will , i agree

No issues here.

You havent proved otherwise , with all your rattling too.

Any article on net will tell you Arjun is better protected than T-90, forget article any of your fellow DFI member will tell you the same. IT IS A GLOBALY ACCEPTED FACT THAT ARJUN IS BETTER PROTECTED THAN T-90 AND HAS BETTER CREW SAFTY MEASURES.
Stop arguging for stake of arguging.

now that is the most stupidest thing i have ever heard, we are not america .. that we can manage thousands of heavy MBT's .. we still figure 128 on the HDI .. we need to save money and use it judiciously.. the point in simple language for your simple mind is INDIA CANNOT AFFORD A BMW wake up!!

Do you even know the fact that IA returns a huge part of the allocated budget back to MoF at the end of fiscal year and yes INDIA CAN AFFORD A BMW. Please come out of the picture where india is cash straved. That was back in 90s. Just look at MMRCA competition.

Yeah and you did.. that makes you a dumba$$. india bought T-90 in 2000 , russia was in deep shit back then .. its 2010.. why would they buy a 10 year old tank now when their economy is good... so the reason is economic.

Then why are we still buying a 10 year old tank.

yeah 50 mm more .. big deal .. and i have discussed the range in other posts . go figure.

Yes 50mm more penetration of RHA is big deal. One layer of protection is of that size.

 

[bhogta]

We should have more Arjun tanks , as par my thought because:

1. Even if the are inferior then T 90 still by manufacturing them we learn a lot of thing and next time there is a better tank from our industry.
2. We even can have negotiation better with Russian and any one else as they know that we also can make tanks.
3. No body can make in first time better then already making country so if we go by that we never can make any thing for our force.

 

[notinlove]

that is 2006 news. no body denies that. but what T-90 includes in that package is the bone of contention and which is why Ajai shukla came up with the investigative report which puts the cost at 17.5 CRORE a piece, including the missing systems from the earlier agreement putting the cost at 12 crore.

snippets from his report -











http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/02/t-90-tank-piercing-armys-armour-of.html

Ajai shukla is only one of the handful of india's best known defence journalists, besides being a ex-man from the army and a tank man!! he needs to be commended for showing the courage to fight the injustice being meted out to Arjun tank.

When you are making a comparative analysis of price then you cannot really count the Shtora or APS in it .. because arjun does not have one , so if you add one to T-90 you have to add one to Arjun .. so no difference in price there ............

Now other than the AC .. what are the so called mysterious "Key systems" that are missing ? may i know? i doubt the AC costs 5.5 crores.

Edit : and BTW , everyone knows the real reason why the Shtora was not procured , we don't need conspiracy theories from "one of the handful of india's best known defence journalists."