Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[ace009]

The western tanks have fought poorly equipped and trained enemies. They haven't done particularly well except against old obsolete tanks. The Iraqis have blown up 80 M1 Abrams with just RPGs. The Hezbollah has destroyed at least 30 Merkavas with purely RPGs in Lebanon. Heck one Russia RPG penetrated the Challengers tough frontal armour along with ERA.

Comparatively against RPGs in Chechnya and Georgia, the latest Russian tanks like T-72BM had no damages or losses. The T-90 is a superior variant of the T-72BM. So, go figure.

Unless of course you think Iraqi insurgents or Hezbollah donkey riders are better trained and equipped than the Ex Soviet army war veterans from Chechnya or Georgia.

The 372 orders for Mk2 were bound to come because the Army had already indicated they will not induct an more Arjun's in their "current configuration." BTW, the frontal armour on the T-90 is as tough or tougher than the Leo A4.



Perhaps. In terms of electronics and equipment the Arjun Mk2 seems to have the upper hand now. But that is only if the T-90 does not have APS or BMS. Considering the T-90s are undergoing net centric operations at Rajasthan in May, it seems likely they are already equipped with BEL or Israeli made BMS. APS can be debatable. But since Russian tanks are already equipped with APS like Shtora, an iron fist or trophy isn't far from reality.

Firstly, to refute your naysaying against western tanks -

The Western forces in the First Gulf war encountered a well trained tank force from Saddam Hussain's army. The Iraqi tanks were the T-72s and T-55s pitted against the M1A1 and the Challenger 2s. Result of battle - 12 M1A1 tanks destroyed 28 T-72s without ANY loss. Now, this is the same Iraqi army, which had extensive training and combat experience from the Iran-Iraq war and were well equipped.
Battle of 73 Easting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As for Merkava history, in the 2006 war, the Merkava III and IVs came under fire from Hezbollah groups armed with Russian RPG-29 'Vampir', AT-5 'Konkurs', AT-13 'Metis-M', and laser-guided AT-14 'Kornet' HEAT missiles. There were a total of 50 tank damages, most of which were repairable and except for a handful, all of them returned to service.
Merkava - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

rest later ...

 

[p2prada]

Firstly, to refute your naysaying against western tanks -

The Western forces in the First Gulf war encountered a well trained tank force from Saddam Hussain's army. The Iraqi tanks were the T-72s and T-55s pitted against the M1A1 and the Challenger 2s. Result of battle - 12 M1A1 tanks destroyed 28 T-72s without ANY loss. Now, this is the same Iraqi army, which had extensive training and combat experience from the Iran-Iraq war and were well equipped.
Battle of 73 Easting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As for Merkava history, in the 2006 war, the Merkava III and IVs came under fire from Hezbollah groups armed with Russian RPG-29 'Vampir', AT-5 'Konkurs', AT-13 'Metis-M', and laser-guided AT-14 'Kornet' HEAT missiles. There were a total of 50 tank damages, most of which were repairable and except for a handful, all of them returned to service.
Merkava - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

rest later ...

The M1 Abrams sent into Gulf war were too advanced compared to the T-72. It would be the same result if we sent the Arjun against the Indian T-72 today. The Iraqi T-72s did not have night fighting capability unlike the Americans. The Americans made most of their moves at night. The T-90s are a different story.

If you look at PAF, they had only one squadron of fighters capable of flying in the night as of 2008. We would have been flying circles over them all night had Op Parakram resulted in war. Their F-16s would have been of no use at all. Even today, they probably have 2 or 3 squadrons along with the F-16 Block 52s capable of fighting in the night.

By the way you are relying on wikipedia for war stories, bad idea.

We know very well how the Arab Migs lost to the Israeli teens. Now are you suggesting the T-72s would done been any better, the export variant of the T-72 were actually worse than the aircraft that the Soviets had supplied.

In the Gulf war, the Iraqis had already fled or deserted. Most of their air force already crossed over to Iran. The command structure was piss poor and their planning worse. The tanks alone were crappy, on top of that they made the big mistake of bunkering their tanks in the sand instead of using the T types advantage of maneuverability in the desert. If the Israelis alone managed to whoop multiple countries with bigger armies, then we are talking about one super power and a consortium of European powers taking out a war weary, weakened Arab country. Iraq was at war for 10 years before the Gulf War, the experience gained was already gone when the Americans came.

You are comparing that to a war in Russia against ex Soviet troops with excellent leadership.

 

[jaadu]

ace009 is talking about first gulfwar in 1991 and the Iran-Iraq war was from 1980-1989 , so just 2 years of gap. BTW Iraq also had the 7th largest Tank army in the world in 1991 !!

 

[ace009]

Exactly - in 1991, the M1A1 was still an unproven platform, while the T-72 was a trusted tank, with 10 years of war experience for the Iraqi army. The Iraqis also had a huge number of those in service.
The Iraqis also had Mig-29s and Mig-25s in service, and as far as I know the NATO forces did not get air superiority that quickly.

 

[p2prada]

Exactly - in 1991, the M1A1 was still an unproven platform, while the T-72 was a trusted tank, with 10 years of war experience for the Iraqi army. The Iraqis also had a huge number of those in service.
The Iraqis also had Mig-29s and Mig-25s in service, and as far as I know the NATO forces did not get air superiority that quickly.

I am talking about the Gulf War as well. Iraq was at war for 9 years against Iran. Iraq was a spent force. The only reason Saddam attacked Kuwait was to get hold of the resources to rebuild a spent army.

No army can keep fighting for that long and then suddenly fight a superpower. Most of the Iraqis who had experience from Iran had already deserted the Army. NATO cleaned up the rest.

The coalition achieved air superiority in 24 hours over Iraq during Gulf war. Only a handful of Migs, you can count them on your fingers, fought back and perished.

All the wars where the M1 triumphed were wars which were fought using flame throwers against flies. Heck we have a 1.5:1 power ratio against Pakistan and we know we have a decent conventional superiority. Comparatively US:India power ratio is 10.5:1. Comparatively US:Iraq power ratio during Gulf War was probably 20:1 or even 30:1. It was a completely one sided game. The 2003 Iraq war and Afghanistan war were even better for the Americans.

The T-72s that the Iraqis fielded were at least 15 years out of date compared to what the Americans came with. The Americans actually feared the T-72 after having seen them in action in Georgia as well as Iran-Iraq. But the fact is they were using a highly advanced tank against export variants with non upgraded armour and weak shells which used steel penetrators rather than tungsten compared to tungsten and Depleted Uranium the Americans used. Let's not forget Air superiority as well. Some Arab forces reported the propellent charges were only half filled. Even then some T-72s managed a decent rear hit on Abrams. The Iraqis only operated around 300 T-72M1s or the Lions of Babylon tank, compared to 2000 that India has. The rest were earlier variants which performed hopelessly against the Abrams.

Even today after the Gulf War the Americans still say if the T-72s were used correctly the result wouldn't have been so lopsided. Even with war experience the crews were not properly exposed to modern warfare of the time. They still relied on WW2 tactics and then the Americans hit the flies with a flamer and hammered what remained.

The info people have about the T types is very highly biased and citing wars that were too one sided. No matter the short comings, no expert sits and doubts the penetration and protection capability of the T-90.

 

[Parthy]

Second trial of Arjun Mark-II tanks begins at Pokharan

The second trial of Arjun–Mark II, the advance version of India's main battle tank, has begun in Pokharan firing range. The trial is aimed at testing the range and strength of the tank and other weaknesses pointed out in the first trail.

Following the first trial, the Indian Army had highlighted the need of some more technical requirements.

Arjun's new version boasts of an improved missile firing range apart from a latest laser system, which can detect explosives on the ground.

Following the trial, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) will be making suitable changes in the tank on the advice of military experts. This advanced version of the tank is likely to be inducted into the Indian Army by next year.

"The trial of the advance version of Arjun has started in Pokharan firing range. This is a development trial and the tanks will be handed over to the Indian Army after removing all the faults pointed out by the military experts," Col SD Goswamy, Defence spokesperson, said.

Apart from its phenomenal missile launching capabilities, Arjun Mark II also has an enhanced auxiliary power unit, explosive reactive armour panels, mine plough, automatic target tracking, advanced land navigation system, digital control harness, and advanced commander panoramic sight among various other features.

One of the critical features of the tank is that a missile can be fired from it to destroy long range targets and also shoot down enemy helicopters.

The upgraded version of Arjun, which has been fitted with 58 tonne German engine, was inducted in the Indian Army over a year ago. The Indian Army has placed an order for 124 such tanks.


Second trial of Arjun Mark-II tanks begins at Pokharan - www.daily.bhaskar.com

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Its just maturing into an more than a Great Tank for our IA needs. Just wished this happened before the T-90 where ordered.

However no news on the Barrels yet, have they changed it to smooth bore?

 

[sayareakd]

TATA NOVA is making POP300D system.

POP300D ("Designator") with a 640X480 Thermal Imager, color CCD with near IR capabilty and a Laser Pointer, an eyesafe Laser Rangefinder and a powerful Laser Designator (compatible with US and NATO laser guided munitions including Hellfire missiles).

Israel Aerospace Industries Ltd (IAI) Systems Missiles Tamam Electro-Optical POP Family

Pdf http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/FILES/0/36970.pdf



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

put this on Nishant UAV then arjun tank crew will sing

Bhaag bhaag Alkhalid
Alkhalid, Alkhalid
Bhag bhag Alkhalid, Khalid bhaag
Bhaag bhaag Alkhalid
Alkhalid, Alkhalid
Bhag bhag Alkhalid, khalid bhaag

 

[p2prada]

It would be difficult to keep UAVs alive over enemy armour formations, even they will have SAMs, MANPADS and other EW equipment. I have heard PA Type 90s will have a soft kill APS to beat laser based targeting systems. They already have laser warning and smoke grenades and such.

Nothing beats a good A2G munition on a MKI when it comes to killing tanks from the air. We must keep that advantage against PA.

 

[sayareakd]

P2P yeah Al Khalid has laser warning and smoke grenade launcher but as i said every time laser is pointed at them, they are going to run, so they will be at 6-8 km length.

That smoke grenade launcher is not auto loader, either Al Khalid run or get top attack tandem CLGM warhead.

 

[SATISH]

It would be difficult to keep UAVs alive over enemy armour formations, even they will have SAMs, MANPADS and other EW equipment. I have heard PA Type 90s will have a soft kill APS to beat laser based targeting systems. They already have laser warning and smoke grenades and such.

Nothing beats a good A2G munition on a MKI when it comes to killing tanks from the air. We must keep that advantage against PA.

I prefer CAS aircrafts and attack helicopters to do that job....SU 30 MKI can carry the CBU 105 for anti armour role and bhramos with a warhead containing anti armour warheads and anti armour mines.

 

[p2prada]

I prefer CAS aircrafts and attack helicopters to do that job....SU 30 MKI can carry the CBU 105 for anti armour role and bhramos with a warhead containing anti armour warheads and anti armour mines.

Yeah! Right now we are rigging up the Jags to handle the CBU-105s.

Attack helis are great, but we have too few, at least for another 5 years. We don't have any major capability against armour from the air until Nag comes in. Only the CBUs.

We don't have a dedicated CAS aircraft though, perhaps we can develop one with the Americans or Russians. Who knows? Perhaps dedicated CAS aircraft are not required anymore. So, multirole all the way.

 

[p2prada]

P2P yeah Al Khalid has laser warning and smoke grenade launcher but as i said every time laser is pointed at them, they are going to run, so they will be at 6-8 km length.

That smoke grenade launcher is not auto loader, either Al Khalid run or get top attack tandem CLGM warhead.

The battlefield will be confusing, a kill at that range may be probable but not guaranteed.

Even a soldier can engage a tank in that condition using a man portable Nag with target intercepts from a UAV, once its ready.

But pk reduces as distance increases, if Al Khalid gets a Shtora type system which is a high possibility, then the IR seeker on Lahat or Nag can be disoriented intentionally. Missiles are at least 5 to 8 times slower than the APFSDS.

Nevertheless, it is a capability we need to have.

Smoke can be generated using the engines too. So, a tank does not have to run away every time it is painted. But keeping the UAV alive is the biggest hurdle.

 

[SATISH]

Well P2P dedicated CAS aircrafts under the army would be a far better idea than having it under the air force. The army knows exactly where CAS is required and can deploy aircrafts instead of asking the air force every time. I think the MiG 27 is the CAS aircraft and Jaguar will most probably used for DPSA roles.

The Dhruv and Chetaah carry gun pods and rocket pods which will come handy in CAS roles.

 

[sayareakd]

what will i do with Arjun and T90 tanks if you take out tanks with fighters and helicopters.

 

[Parthy]

Trials for new version of Arjun MBT on

The second round of field trials of the advanced version of the Arjun Main Battle Tank has begun in Rajasthan's Pokhran ranges.

The Mark-II version of the Arjun MBT includes advancements in areas of missile firing capability, lasers to detect anti-tank mines, improved armour, power generation system, automatic tracking and navigation systems.

"The trials started last week and would continue for sometime. It is basically aimed at incorporating the specific technological advancements needed by the Army," Defence Spokesperson from Jodhpur, Colonel S D Goswami told PTI.

Designed by Defence Research and Development Organisation's Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE), Chennai, the Mark-II versions of the tanks would have more than 90 modifications in its systems.

Special attention is being paid to the chassis of the tanks to give it speed and extra manoeuvrability over all the terrains.

Compared to the Mark-I variant, the tanks would have an enhanced Auxiliary Power Unit (APU) with a capacity of 8.5 kilowatt, digital control harness, Advanced Land Navigation Systems (ALNS) and Advanced Commander Panaromic Sight (ACPS).

To read more - Trials for new version of Arjun MBT on - Brahmand.com

 

[p2prada]

Well P2P dedicated CAS aircrafts under the army would be a far better idea than having it under the air force. The army knows exactly where CAS is required and can deploy aircrafts instead of asking the air force every time. I think the MiG 27 is the CAS aircraft and Jaguar will most probably used for DPSA roles.

The Dhruv and Chetaah carry gun pods and rocket pods which will come handy in CAS roles.

IAF has reluctantly allowed the Army to have their LCHs. CAS aircraft under Army's command will be easier said than done. Both Mig-27 and Jags follow a similar doctrine, the Jags are used for DPSA because they are modernized.

what will i do with Arjun and T90 tanks if you take out tanks with fighters and helicopters.

Keep the air free from enemy aircraft, that's all. If the enemy takes control of the air then it is the Battle of Longewala all over again.

More advances in air power is making tanks redundant. The best possible way for a tank to survive is by using stealth, active or passive it does not matter. If an aircraft picks up a tank, then it's gone. But this is something only bigger air forces can handle. Heavy armour could be irreplaceable, but it's uses may not be as wide as they used to be earlier like in WW2.

 

[SATISH]

IAF has reluctantly allowed the Army to have their LCHs. CAS aircraft under Army's command will be easier said than done. Both Mig-27 and Jags follow a similar doctrine, the Jags are used for DPSA because they are modernized.



Keep the air free from enemy aircraft, that's all. If the enemy takes control of the air then it is the Battle of Longewala all over again.

More advances in air power is making tanks redundant. The best possible way for a tank to survive is by using stealth, active or passive it does not matter. If an aircraft picks up a tank, then it's gone. But this is something only bigger air forces can handle. Heavy armour could be irreplaceable, but it's uses may not be as wide as they used to be earlier like in WW2.

I thought both underwent the same DARIN upgrades and it was the range that made the jags more effective.

 

[ace009]

Now let's say IA does develop a CAS wing with turboprop aircraft like the Pilatus PC12. The aircraft cost ~$2 million - if an aircraft like that is armed with the NAG and destroy MBTS worth $50 million - it would be some irony!

(PILATUS, Used PILATUS, PILATUS For Sale At Controller.com - Page 1)

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Trials for new version of Arjun MBT on

The second round of field trials of the advanced version of the Arjun Main Battle Tank has begun in Rajasthan's Pokhran ranges.

The Mark-II version of the Arjun MBT includes advancements in areas of missile firing capability, lasers to detect anti-tank mines, improved armour, power generation system, automatic tracking and navigation systems.

"The trials started last week and would continue for sometime. It is basically aimed at incorporating the specific technological advancements needed by the Army," Defence Spokesperson from Jodhpur, Colonel S D Goswami told PTI.

Designed by Defence Research and Development Organisation's Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE), Chennai, the Mark-II versions of the tanks would have more than 90 modifications in its systems.

Special attention is being paid to the chassis of the tanks to give it speed and extra manoeuvrability over all the terrains.

Compared to the Mark-I variant, the tanks would have an enhanced Auxiliary Power Unit (APU) with a capacity of 8.5 kilowatt, digital control harness, Advanced Land Navigation Systems (ALNS) and Advanced Commander Panaromic Sight (ACPS).

To read more - Trials for new version of Arjun MBT on - Brahmand.com

Interesting..