Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[sayareakd]

So i guess US can still control it. L-3 which is a US company produces the engine under the license of MTU germany .

great logic man

jokes apart, manc you all right buddy since when are you have madrasa logic. you are great guy, what happen ???

 

[sayareakd]

manc go through this link and you will understand Arjun tank project cost Rs.305 crore only that too with 3 changes in GSQR.

History of Arjun Tank Development - Frontier India - News, Analysis, Opinion

 

[plugwater]

I can understand a foreign vendor as different and unaffected but i cant see how an Indian scientist is unaffected! If we lose the war he will be more affected and under more pressure. The HVF is run by an retired Army General how much diffrent can it be? Dont say Just because it is run it does not matter. It matter so much they put their guy there. Even the T-90 faced critical problems and it is built for cold Russian climate!!

That is the difference between the Pro and Anti mindset, we see everything as one, one failure is our failure, it is the failure of the collages, University, students, Parents who could not turn out scientist who finished the job in time. In other words we did not failed.

Not faith Rationality, we cant cower down to failures and we need to take what we have and refine it, not give up like a sissy!

By the time we put pressure on DRDO our army men would be dead. If you are willing to take risk on national security by favoring DRDO means i cant help it.

T-90 met with some problems because we integrated some foreign systems in it, the problems with integration of new systems are nothing unusual during inital trials.

DRDO's afilure is not IA's failure and IA's failure is not DRDO's failure and they are not one entity so dont confuse yourself.

Noone is giving up, you can blame IA when DRDO stops all its research work.

 

[plugwater]

manc go through this link and you will understand Arjun tank project cost Rs.305 crore only that too with 3 changes in GSQR.

History of Arjun Tank Development - Frontier India - News, Analysis, Opinion

Like i said its not IA's problem. They have a job to protect our nation with or without DRDO.

 

[sayareakd]

Like i said its not IA's problem. They have a job to protect our nation with or without DRDO.

manc you can say what ever you want, please some day see a Arjun tank up close and then you will realised what solid tank they have come up with made for Indian condition, it has such protection that at the time of war you will want your children to be in Arjun tank rather then on the present T90S tank. If you have time Arjun tank can be seen in Defexpo 2012 in Feb and then you will feel the difference.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

By the time we put pressure on DRDO our army men would be dead. If you are willing to take risk on national security by favoring DRDO means i cant help it.

T-90 met with some problems because we integrated some foreign systems in it, the problems with integration of new systems are nothing unusual during inital trials.

DRDO's afilure is not IA's failure and IA's failure is not DRDO's failure and they are not one entity so dont confuse yourself.

Noone is giving up, you can blame IA when DRDO stops all its research work.

The attitude during war will be very diffrent, DRDO will have to work 24hours to produce all tanks. During WW2 the Allies caught up to Germanys arms build up only after the war started. You must have heard the innovations and rate of production increased during war, everything from jet engine to atom bomb was invented During war. So during war the mind set is different, we will do huge sacrifices when fear of death looms large. At that time i want an 80% DRDO not 20% America, 50%Russia, 30% Europe our soldiers will die if we rely on sanction prone imports, which can be Torpedoed by a paki sub.

If we have a two front war with Pak and China and we lose our Navy and China Blockades the Sea like the US did in Bangladesh war what will you do? Look for the dead Arjun then?

Arjun is as good as t-90 now and future models will get better, not even you can disagree with that. There are probably corrupt officers in Army who want to be bribed by foreign vendors to by their equipment.

 

[sayareakd]

Saya, Would you please consider under what circumstances we ordered T-90 ? Arjun may be comfortable and look awesome but it was not ready when we needed it .

good point manc but now it is ready and it has prove it after defeating T90s in trial, i dont have to tell you how much they have tried to rigged it, still it come on top. Since IA need 3800 new tanks and 1800 FMBt, why they want to go for T90.
When DRDO wanted comparative trials, DGMF that time give lollipop of FMBT, but God was smiling on us T95 was cancelled. DGMF is not longer their, new one want to review that GSQR for FMBT.
First emergency procurement we all can understand but not the subsequent ones, too much Vodka has made a mess of it.

 

[plugwater]

good point manc but now it is ready and it has prove it after defeating T90s in trial, i dont have to tell you how much they have tried to rigged it, still it come on top. Since IA need 3800 new tanks and 1800 FMBt, why they want to go for T90.
When DRDO wanted comparative trials, DGMF that time give lollipop of FMBT, but God was smiling on us T95 was cancelled. DGMF is not longer their, new one want to review that GSQR for FMBT.
First emergency procurement we all can understand but not the subsequent ones, too much Vodka has made a mess of it.

MK-2 is getting orders.
Once deals are signed means its over you cant just go and cancel the deal just like that, if you do that you ll lose your credibility.
T-90 and Arjun will get inducted in the army whether DRDO likes it or not.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

War wont last more than a month, DRDO people never ever worked for 24hrs a day, Their job is just like another govt job.

Arjun is not 100% Indian so we cant mass produce it, it is still 50% Indian.

Future models will get orders like 248 orders for Mk-2 few days back.

Your accusation of bribery is just an assumption.

DRDO will have to work during war time, when i spoke with GTRE scientists they said their boss told them who ever is not interested to work more than 12hrs a day from now on should leave the job! That just an example, you should have come with me to Aero India and cleared your doubts there. They really are not dumb asses, they have Phds and IIT graduates. You would have been surprised by their sophisticated knowledge, they are not what we think they are. Thats why i changed my mind. I spoke like this in BR and they banned me, i guess they had their reasons to.

If your not letting Arjun to be manufactured then how can it form a base and become 100% Indian? You need orders to make it Indian and it takes 20 years if we start now. Your not even letting to take the first step then you want everything like a Creationist in 6days! lol. What about years of evolution!


Army is not angles, the MES or Military Engineering Service is quite corrupt, with the experience in my contract company people says they are not what i think they are. They take bribes and its a murky establishment.

 

[sayareakd]

Guys world does not happen was we think it is, tehelka scandle has shown how MOD works, but recent events specially the MRCA has shown that things have changed for good. Not many have said no to Uncle and his deep pocket.

 

[pmaitra]

Of all persons who are supporting Arjun i thought you would know how things work in business since you own a business. Comparing laptop or microsoft with national security does not make any sense.

Just imagine you have ordered a manufacturer to make some things for your business , Lets say that manufacturing company is owned by your best freind. Now your freind fails to deliver those things and have no clue about the time frame for completing it, Would you not consider other manufacturer ? So you decide to buy those things from another manufacturer, start to use it and build you entire business around those things. After ten years your friend comes to you and tells you to buy his product and build your whole business again around his product, Would you show him your middle finger or not ?

No one is telling DRDO to shut their shops, they can keep on do their research until it reaches the level the imported products are and more importantly before the deadline.

That is the most important point. You hit the nail on the head manc. Right now, Arjun is great, no doubt. It was not available on the day the deadline expired. We cannot afford to lose our lead over Pakistan even for a week.

War wont last more than a month, DRDO people never ever worked for 24hrs a day, Their job is just like another govt job.

Arjun is not 100% Indian so we cant mass produce it, it is still 50% Indian.

Future models will get orders like 248 orders for Mk-2 few days back.

Your accusation of bribery is just an assumption.

Well manc, I'd put it this way, that the accusation of bribery is probably an assumption but accusation of sabotage while trials is believed by many but unproven.

good point manc but now it is ready and it has prove it after defeating T90s in trial, i dont have to tell you how much they have tried to rigged it, still it come on top. Since IA need 3800 new tanks and 1800 FMBt, why they want to go for T90.
When DRDO wanted comparative trials, DGMF that time give lollipop of FMBT, but God was smiling on us T95 was cancelled. DGMF is not longer their, new one want to review that GSQR for FMBT.
First emergency procurement we all can understand but not the subsequent ones, too much Vodka has made a mess of it.

Mr. Sayare, you have a point there. Although there is no proof, but I personally believe someone tried to sabotage the Arjun tanks before the trials and DRDO placed seals in the vital parts so that they would know if anyone has tinkered with the Arjuns used for testing. While it is unfair to blame the whole IA, there is definitely a possibility of a few elements (who would have been potential beneficiaries of foreign procurements) sabotaging the Arjun.

Arjun is a great tank. I would have picked it over T-90 if it was available on or before the deadline. Serious investigations are necessary to see if there was indeed any sabotage. However, the truth is DRDO did fail to meet the deadline.

 

[plugwater]

DRDO will have to work during war time, when i spoke with GTRE scientists they said their boss told them who ever is not interested to work more than 12hrs a day from now on should leave the job! That just an example, you should have come with me to Aero India and cleared your doubts there. They really are not dumb asses, they have Phds and IIT graduates. You would have been surprised by their sophisticated knowledge, they are not what we think they are. Thats why i changed my mind. I spoke like this in BR and they banned me, i guess they had their reasons to.

If your not letting Arjun to be manufactured then how can it form a base and become 100% Indian? You need orders to make it Indian and it takes 20 years if we start now. Your not even letting to take the first step then you want everything like a Creationist in 6days! lol. What about years of evolution!


Army is not angles, the MES or Military Engineering Service is quite corrupt, with the experience in my contract company people says they are not what i think they are. They take bribes and its a murky establishment.

Definitely you didn't expect some random GTRE guy to tell you that they failed, Did you ? I have many friends working in DRDO who work much lesser than 12 hours. We can go to Aero India next time. Very few IITians mate and most people do PhD in govt organization for promotion and for better pay , PhD does not guarantee that they have very thorough knowledge.

DRDO can very well increase the indigenous components in Arjun with the orders they have.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Definitely you didn't expect some random GTRE guy to tell you that they failed, Did you ? I have many friends working in DRDO who work much lesser than 12 hours. We can go to Aero India next time. Very few IITians mate and most people do PhD in govt organization for promotion and for better pay , PhD does not guarantee that they have very thorough knowledge.

DRDO can very well increase the indigenous components in Arjun with the orders they have.

Again i did not say everyone has Phds,IIT your reading it out of context. I am not sure what you dont understand about being a third world country unable to produce a transistor in the 80s to makeing Aircraft's and Tanks now. You dont seem to appreciate that some part is doing Ok if not great compared to the dire straits of the governments in India. Government is like an desert of apathy and you want to bury something which is blossoming in an dry desert of government apathy. This is like starving the positive points and cribbing about the negative points! Makes no sense to me sorry.

He did not use the word fail, he said they havent been able to meet specification yet, failure is when you give up.

Ya they could increase indegeniousation but its the fault of Gov to get into every project half heartedly and spending money on it as if every thing is a TD. When the west starts a project they dont doubt and they go full swing into it, like the F-22 where they spent 85 billion on development! We crib and get afraid if the cost crosses a few hundred corers. I think the right attitude would be that of the missile development program. There should be no half hearted pursuit like they do now.

 

[san]

Definitely you didn't expect some random GTRE guy to tell you that they failed, Did you ? I have many friends working in DRDO who work much lesser than 12 hours. We can go to Aero India next time. Very few IITians mate and most people do PhD in govt organization for promotion and for better pay , PhD does not guarantee that they have very thorough knowledge.

DRDO can very well increase the indigenous components in Arjun with the orders they have.

Manc,
I have visited research, engineering and production site of an US based MNC that used to produce gas turbines,aircraft engines etc. Few weeks back I have visited IMGT -HAL (Industrial and Marine Gas Turbine), Bangalore. To my surprised I have found HAL engineers more professional and technological sound than the same year of experience guys in the US based company. The difference is that the US company invested billions of $ on reserach and they have 60+ years in experience in development of aircraft engines.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Manc,
I have visited research, engineering and production site of an US based MNC that used to produce gas turbines,aircraft engines etc. Few weeks back I have visited IMGT -HAL (Industrial and Marine Gas Turbine), Bangalore. To my surprised I have found HAL engineers more professional and technological sound than the same year of experience guys in the US based company. The difference is that the US company invested billions of $ on reserach and they have 60+ years in experience in development of aircraft engines.

That does not make any difference, we are stupid onlee so no pint spending billions in india when we can buy foreign stuff, which are produced by geniuses who work on half our budget!

What mindset you have sam supporting Indian R&D! We better give up because we are late on everything.

 

[p2prada]

War wont last more than a month, DRDO people never ever worked for 24hrs a day, Their job is just like another govt job.

DRDO scientists do work 24 hours, sometimes they work 3 to 4 days at a stretch before coming home. When my grandpa worked on the Agni program he wouldn't come home for 3 to 4 days at a stretch. They have certain deadlines to cover that needs an incredible amount of chewing on data both manually and feeding into supercomputers. There are times when they do nothing and then there are times when they do too much. It is stressful.

Even my friend who worked on the design team of Lakshya and Nishant had given 3 days at a stretch to cover deadlines. They used to sleep for a few hours and work for 12 to 18 hours, then sleep for 3 -4 hours again. Eating would all happen during work. A lot of this is very occasional though.

The fact is my friend worked for a private firm that likes sticking to deadlines. But the moment he was invited by a PSU to complete work on the same project it became terrible. What used to take hours turned into weeks in the PSU. He pointed out a huge difference between the work ethics he had in the private company compared to the PSU. The workers in the PSU loved going home though. He said he was never more relaxed since he ever started working.

As for my Grandpa's case, he worked directly under APJ Kalam. So, the leadership was good. This leadership isn't guaranteed in all other fields. Only critical projects in DRDO, mainly the missile program has gone well.

The last I was in ISRO was to see the integration of the Chandrayaan satellite. The scientists there work hard as well. But the quality of work they do is nowhere compared to DRDO's non missile community.

According to my friend's words, there is a huge difference between working hard and making things happen. This is the biggest fault in our defence PSUs. They never decide on anything. There are so many varied opinions that they don't know which one to use to fix a problem. Deciding this is important, because they cannot waste money on something that may not work. Meaning they know what the problem is and they know the solution. But by the time they decide on which solution to work on, the project itself is left in the limbo. By the time they decide and implement any solution the program would have been delayed by many years. Leadership is the biggest problem and it isn't good while teamwork is worse.

The scientists are all smart, meaning they all know their stuff. The best and the brightest available to the PSUs are taken in. But there is something that is accepted by the Private sector as well, best and brightest does not mean efficient and capable. Ask anybody in LRDE on how an AESA radar works he will answer. Ask them to build an AESA radar, they scratch their heads. Theoretical knowledge is by itself not enough and their practical experience is next to nothing. This is another big issue plaguing our PSUs. They simply don't have experience and the Army's requirements have hit the sky. Their requirements from foreign vendors are sometimes too tough for them to deliver as well. For eg: All the SAMs that the services are expecting from EADS and Rafael are things they themselves have not developed. Unlike previous projects where the services merely bought already developed products, this time there is a lot of development happening as well. MKI is an example of such a project. The MKI is beyond the requirements of the Russian Air force.

Lastly is the question of funds. Whenever scientists come up with a breakthrough, securing funds would require an equally copious amount of time to be released. A lot of bureaucratic hurdles between the ministry and within the PSU itself along with releasing funds to outsourced departments. There are times when my friend used to come to work, fool around and go back because they needed funds to continue. This blame rests with both MoD as well as the PSUs.

The biggest hurdles are leadership and team work, experience and then funds. These are primary irritants to all our projects. Lack of focus is also a big pain. Nothing is planned. Whenever roadblocks are overcome, there is no preparations done to prevent another roadblock which takes up even longer time to overcome.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

DRDO and others have done a wonderful job..

Arjun MBT may got delayed but proved to be worthy to have..

Arjun and LCA are major steps of Indigenous industry in Heavy Weaponry and as time goes by we will see more of these..

There is no need for fight over old case as it meant nothing IA is going to order more Arjun series in future and we will see end of foreign heavy weapons from Indian Inventory by 2030..

For some people need to be reminded again and again abt basic Success history of MBT Arjun..

Here`s the Re-post:

Desert Ferrari and More..

The Army wanted a third party to assess the tanks and called in experts from Israel. They subjected the tanks to more tests at the Mahajan range and were so impressed that they called it "a desert Ferrari".

'Desert Ferrari' and more


Indian Army chief appreciates performance of 'Arjun'

New Delhi: In a reversal of the Indian Army's stand on the indigenous main battle tank (MBT) Arjun, which has been 37 years in the making, army chief General Deepak Kapoor has written to the Defence Ministry appreciating the tank's performance.

"The army chief for the first time has appreciated Arjun tank for performing well. In a letter written earlier this year he said that the tank was subjected to the most strenuous of tests and it performed 'admirably well'," a defence ministry official said.

Indian Army chief appreciates performance of 'Arjun'
Deccan Herald - Indian Army chief appreciates Arjun tank's performance


Indian army deploys first indigenous tanks along Pakistan border

Jaipur: The Indian army's main battle tank (MBT) Arjun was deployed along the border with Pakistan in Jaisalmer on Saturday.A function organised by the army's 75 Regiment at Jaisalmer to mark the occasion on Saturday also saw the Arjun officially replace the Russian-made T55.
Lieutenant-General A.K. Singh, general officer in command of the army's southern command, who inspected a parade marking the deployment, said the new tanks would especially strengthen the army's desert operations capabilities.The 75 Regiment is the second army unit to get the Arjun tank. A number of former army officers, some of them war veterans who served the 75 Regiment in the 1965 and 1971 wars.

gulfnews : Indian army deploys first indigenous tanks along Pakistan border



Trials up: Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90
March 25, 2010

New Delhi: The Indian Army on Monday ordered another 124 Arjun main battle tanks (MBTs) to boost the firepower of the 1.13-million strong force after the indigenously developed platform outgunned the Russian-origin Bhishma T-90 MBT in a gruelling trial in the Thar desert, an official said.

"After many years of trial and tribulation, it has now proved its worth by its superb performance under various circumstances, such as driving cross-country over rugged sand dunes, detecting, observing and quickly engaging targets and accurately hitting targets - both stationary and moving -with pin-point accuracy," Kar said.

Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90
Arjun tank outguns T-90 in desert trial - India News - IBNLive
Trials up: Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90 - 1 - *2010: Defence & Internal Security Special on MSN India
Arjun tank outguns Russian T-90 in desert trial | Taaza.com
Army to purchase more Arjun tanks (India)
The TND Armoured Fighting Vehicle Forum::General Banter ::India's Arjun tank outruns and outguns Russian T-90


FLASH! Indian Army Orders 124 More Arjun Tanks!

Monday, May 17, 2010

The Defence Ministry has just announced that the Indian Army has decided to place a fresh order for an additional 124 Arjun main battle tanks. This is over and above the existing order of 124 tanks, taking the total strength in service to 248 Arjuns. I wrote about the possibility of two more regiments being ordered here in March. The development follows the success of the indigenous MBT Arjun in the recent gruelling desert trials. After many years of "trials and tribulations", it has now proved its worth by its superb performance under various circumstances, such as driving cross-country over rugged sand dunes, detecting, observing and quickly engaging targets, accurately hitting targets – both stationary and moving, with pin point accuracy. The total number still falls well short of the 500 tank target that the Mark-1 version was supposed to achieve to amortize investments on infrastructure.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/05/flash-army-orders-124-more-arjun-tanks.htm


Army set to place order for 248 more arjun main battle tanks

ANGALORE: The much-maligned Arjun Main Battle Tank is poised to get a fresh lease of life, with the Indian Army set to order 248 more of India's first indigenously-built tanks, a decision that will also give a much-needed shot in the arm to the country's beleaguered tank fleet.

"We are definitely expecting more orders, at least a minimum of 248 tanks of the Mark-II version. The Ordnance Factory Board has been instructed by the ministry of defence to initiate action for the procurement of the Mark-II version," P. Sivakumar, director, Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment, told the Economic Times

.
Army set to place order for 248 more arjun main battle tanks - The Economic Times

 

[Godless-Kafir]

If even the Israelis call it desert Ferrari, what is stopping the army from inducting it?! I would think DRDO is not doing the upgrades fast enough?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

If even the Israelis call it desert Ferrari, what is stopping the army from inducting it?! I would think DRDO is not doing the upgrades fast enough?

You are talking abt previous mind set of Army, Look now !!

Look at the the news and time frame accordingly, My words are true..

Btw, Their is only one HVF which produce tanks, So patience is important..

 

[Godless-Kafir]

You are talking abt previous mind set of Army, Look now !!

Look at the the news and time frame accordingly, My words are true..

Btw, Their is only one HVF which produce tanks, So patience is important..

Well they are only placing minimum orders, 500 tanks are enough. They should order atleast a 1000.