Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[Godless-Kafir]

We bought the best tank available in the market when Arjun failed. You dont expect IA to wait for Arjun to get ready to maintain its edge over Pak Army, do you ?

Just because your Lap top hangs you dont throw it away do you? Sure you want to buy a new lap top but windows will hang never the less and that does not mean Bill gates should have never started Windows, if he thought that way then Windows would have been a colossal failure. Going by this logic of condemning something on trail means we should all never buy Windows or I-Phones which all had its fare share of problems.

Failure does not mean the end, it only means it is in a process of evolution. You dont throw the baby out with the bath water because it cant walk yet. Most of us who support Arjun here do not disagree with people who are critiques of it, some of the problems they state are true like the many teething problems or lack of ERA etc., we dont disagree with that, what we disagree is to shut shop and turn to foreign customers, nothing evolves if you kill it.

Tanks in the Arjun class are going to be around still for a long time atleast for the next 30 years, so there is no question of it getting out moded, we just need to put our money where our security is and plow on. Live with the minor jigs and slowly make it a success.

Its only a mindset, we think we need to plow on and refine our defence industry, while some of you guys think we need to shut shop and buy stuff!

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Here is your PERFECT T-90.

Chandigarh: Inducted to serve as India's main battle tank just over three years ago, the Army's fleet of Russian-built T-90s have run into serious trouble.

The problems include critical flaws in its fire control system, availability of ammunition and, what military officers said, was avoidable overuse during training exercises, rendering many tanks in need of overhaul.

According to Jane's Defence Weekly, the tank's continuing technical flaws are "adversely impinging on the Indian Army's operational preparedness."

Confirming the Jane's report, senior Army officers told this newspaper that the French Catherine thermal imaging (TI) camera, which gives the T-90's Belarussian (Peling IG-46) night sight its 3 km range and higher accuracy, is not "adequately tropicalised" and hence prone to malfunctioning in the extreme heat of the Rajasthan desert region, where temperatures inside the MBT routinely average between 55ºC and 60ºC.

During repeated manoeuvres in the Thar Desert, where the T-90s will ultimately be deployed in the event of an outbreak in hostilities, prolonged use under high temperatures had already "knocked out" between 80 and 90 of the Catherine TI cameras, rendering the FCS "unserviceable." The officers said that repeated efforts to correct the problem had been without success.

The TI cameras are the crucial "eyes" of the tank's systems. At Rs 2 crores each, the Catherine TI system comprises almost one-sixth of each T-90's total cost of Rs 11.75 crores.

Flaws in T 90 Main Battle Tanks troubles Indian Army, page 1

 

[sayareakd]

Saya, I have seen people putting blame on sanction for LCA delays in LCA thread. If its true that we could not even get little help from Israel or any other countries for LCA, how do you expect them to sell tanks to us ?

Israel cant even do anything against US now, Remember how US blocked Israel in selling us the radar even though our relationship with US are pretty good!!

Manc, LCA suffered because it they had collaborated with US companies, who at the time of sanction have taken away all the data with them. LCA that time did not got any help from Israel. Markava is tank made by Israel, it was made for its condition, during 2001 joint working group was establish with Israel and green pine radar was imported from them, you can understand Green pine radar vs Markava tank and what capability was given by former.

 

[sayareakd]

Confirming the Jane's report, senior Army officers told this newspaper that the French Catherine thermal imaging (TI) camera, which gives the T-90's Belarussian (Peling IG-46) night sight its 3 km range and higher accuracy, is not "adequately tropicalised" and hence prone to malfunctioning in the extreme heat of the Rajasthan desert region, where temperatures inside the MBT routinely average between 55ºC and 60ºC.

Range of T90S anti tank missile is around 6 km, so it can target 3 km less range in night.

The Refleks missile has semi-automatic laser beam-riding guidance and a tandem hollow-charge HEAT warhead. It has an effective range of 100 m to 6 km, and takes 17.5 seconds to reach maximum range. Refleks can penetrate about 950 millimetres (37 in) of steel armour and can also engage low-flying air targets such as helicopters.[4]

T-90 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[plugwater]

Just because your Lap top hangs you dont throw it away do you? Sure you want to buy a new lap top but windows will hang never the less and that does not mean Bill gates should have never started Windows, if he thought that way then Windows would have been a colossal failure. Going by this logic of condemning something on trail means we should all never buy Windows or I-Phones which all had its fare share of problems.

Failure does not mean the end, it only means it is in a process of evolution. You dont throw the baby out with the bath water because it cant walk yet. Most of us who support Arjun here do not disagree with people who are critiques of it, some of the problems they state are true like the many teething problems or lack of ERA etc., we dont disagree with that, what we disagree is to shut shop and turn to foreign customers, nothing evolves if you kill it.

Tanks in the Arjun class are going to be around still for a long time atleast for the next 30 years, so there is no question of it getting out moded, we just need to put our money where our security is and plow on. Live with the minor jigs and slowly make it a success.

Its only a mindset, we think we need to plow on and refine our defence industry, while some of you guys think we need to shut shop and buy stuff!

Of all persons who are supporting Arjun i thought you would know how things work in business since you own a business. Comparing laptop or microsoft with national security does not make any sense.

Just imagine you have ordered a manufacturer to make some things for your business , Lets say that manufacturing company is owned by your best freind. Now your freind fails to deliver those things and have no clue about the time frame for completing it, Would you not consider other manufacturer ? So you decide to buy those things from another manufacturer, start to use it and build you entire business around those things. After ten years your friend comes to you and tells you to buy his product and build your whole business again around his product, Would you show him your middle finger or not ?

No one is telling DRDO to shut their shops, they can keep on do their research until it reaches the level the imported products are and more importantly before the deadline.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Range of T90S anti tank missile is around 6 km, so it can target 3 km less range in night.

T-90 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Saya we are talking of sights here or missiles? Dont get you point mate!

 

[sayareakd]

Saya we are talking of sights here or missiles? Dont get you point mate!

GK sight has range of 3 km and the tank has anti tank missile which has range of 6 km, now you are inside T90S with this sight in night, you can have range of 6km but your sight has limitation of 3 km therefore despite the fact that you can take out target at 6 km you end up targeting only 3 km.

 

[plugwater]

Manc, LCA suffered because it they had collaborated with US companies, who at the time of sanction have taken away all the data with them. LCA that time did not got any help from Israel. Markava is tank made by Israel, it was made for its condition, during 2001 joint working group was establish with Israel and green pine radar was imported from them, you can understand Green pine radar vs Markava tank and what capability was given by former.

US vetoed Israel for selling arrows in 2002 i think. Tank is an offensive weaponry, Radar is not. Merkava is too heavy and too costly we didnt have money to throw like we have now.

 

[pack leader]

this is typical short sightedness on the part of IA
Russian optics are crap
the RF uses french optics themselves
but french sights are worthless in super hot temperature of India
Israeli fcs that is made to withstand such temperature (micro ac)
was only acquired for arjun and t 72 upgrade

 

[sayareakd]

US vetoed Israel for selling arrows in 2002 i think. Tank is an offensive weaponry, Radar is not. Merkava is too heavy and too costly we didnt have money to throw like we have now.

Manc Arrow was seen by Indians and found to be unfit for Indian conditions, Indians were allowed to visit Arrows test by Israel. Mac that is not ordinary radar that is Green Pine and Israel has removed US equipment from the radar and put in their own. Markava has got different versions.
IF India wanted Israel would be more then happy to supply us.

 

[pack leader]

arrow is partly funded by us aid merkava is not that is why
they can force our hand on the arrow program

 

[sayareakd]

pack what is per unit cost of different version of Markava Tank.

 

[plugwater]

Manc Arrow was seen by Indians and found to be unfit for Indian conditions, Indians were allowed to visit Arrows test by Israel. Mac that is not ordinary radar that is Green Pine and Israel has removed US equipment from the radar and put in their own. Markava has got different versions.
IF India wanted Israel would be more then happy to supply us.

Saya, US did veto Arrow's sale to us. Merkava uses American engine for all its variants .

 

[pack leader]

merkava 4m (with aps) unit coast 5.2 million $
merkava 4 export (inferior fcs as comped to Israeli version) offered to Colombia 4.5 million $
merkava 3 refurbished (offered to turkey and Colombia ) 3 million $

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Of all persons who are supporting Arjun i thought you would know how things work in business since you own a business. Comparing laptop or microsoft with national security does not make any sense.

Just imagine you have ordered a manufacturer to make some things for your business , Lets say that manufacturing company is owned by your best freind. Now your freind fails to deliver those things and have no clue about the time frame for completing it, Would you not consider other manufacturer ? So you decide to buy those things from another manufacturer, start to use it and build you entire business around those things. After ten years your friend comes to you and tells you to buy his product and build your whole business again around his product, Would you show him your middle finger or not ?

No one is telling DRDO to shut their shops, they can keep on do their research until it reaches the level the imported products are and more importantly before the deadline.

Dude, let me put it the way i or other see it, first of all DRDO is not like a friend, DRDO is me or us and so is the army both of them are Indian owned or part of India, there is no second entity, its team India. Let me explain that business analogy you used in my terms, All these years you could not make that particular part yourself and now finally after 30 years your able to get around and figure things out and do it by yourself, You did not persist for 35 years to finally give up when you can make it, did you? That would be meaningless.

If you did not stop then and now finally after you produced it and made the product which is potential better than the imported product would you shut down that factory...now? Or would you try to slowly move away from the foreign supplier and rely on yourself?

Your business is not built around foreign supplier, it is being forced to be built around by another board member, who i disagree with. I want to manufacture my own stuff when we have room to expand, after all only 1000 in 4500 is imported and you have room for 3500 more and your looking at the future ahead for 50 years! Would you want to be stuck for the rest of your life just being a consumer and not a manufacturer? The future is past the risk and i will take that risk any day. That ensures the future is secure and we dont remain a small consumer based company.

In other words your showing the finger to yourself, this is an Indian venture.

 

[pack leader]

Saya, US did veto Arrow's sale to us. Merkava uses American engine for all its variants .

merkava 4 is fitted for the mtu euro-pack diesel engine (made in Germany France and USA)
a cousin of the arjun engine

 

[plugwater]

Dude, let me put it the way i or other see it, first of all DRDO is not like a friend, DRDO is me or us and so is the army both of them are Indian owned or part of India, there is no second entity, its team India. Let me explain that business analogy you used in my terms, All these years you could not make that particular part yourself and now finally after 30 years your able to get around and figure things out and do it by yourself, Why did not you give up and stop it?

If you did not stop then and now finally after you produced it and made the product which is potential better than the imported product would you shut down that factory...now? Or would you try to slowly move away from the foreign supplier and rely on yourself?

Your business is not built around foreign supplier, it is being forced to be built around by another board member, who i disagree with. I want to buy our own stuff when we have room and your looking at the future ahead for 50 years! Would you want to be stuck for the rest of your life just being a consumer and not a manufacturer? The future is past the risk and i will take that risk any day. That ensures the future is secure and we dont remain a small consumer based company.

In other words your showing the finger to yourself, this is an Indian venture.

No, DRDO is different. During war, IA fights the enemy, but DRDO's scientists comfortably sit in their homes. IA is a user so it can demand whatever it wants from its supplier, If the supplier is unfit to meet its deadline, IA can go to another supplier.

Gk, Your poing of killing DRDO's efforts is not true, They are late so they have to face the consequences meaning low order from IA. They should be grateful to IA because IA is atleast giving some orders for Arjun to keep the production line going But you would not see this happening in other countries.

Future is still secure, IA has again placed its faith on DRDO by giving a chance to develop FMBT after its previous fuck up.

 

[plugwater]

merkava 4 is fitted for the mtu euro-pack diesel engine (made in Germany France and USA)
a cousin of the arjun engine

So i guess US can still control it. L-3 which is a US company produces the engine under the license of MTU germany .

 

[Godless-Kafir]

No, DRDO is different. During war, IA fights the enemy, but DRDO's scientists comfortably sit in their homes. IA is a user so it can demand whatever it wants from its supplier, If the supplier is unfit to meet its deadline, IA can go to another supplier.

Gk, Your poing of killing DRDO's efforts is not true, They are late so they have to face the consequences meaning low order from IA. They should be grateful to IA because IA is atleast giving some orders for Arjun to keep the production line going But you would not see this happening in other countries.

Future is still secure, IA has again placed its faith on DRDO by giving a chance to develop FMBT after its previous fuck up.

Thats the diffrence, we see DRDO as part of one group influencing a larger theater called India where as people here see it in bits as Army and DRDO, MOD etc., For us they are all interlinked and each of their failure and success is related.

Your right manc, it is the Soldiers who will be fighting in the front line and takeing the brunt but you must note our Scientists are sitting here in India with a Axe on their head when a war is on, compared to a foreign vendor who is sitting in Russia or Europe, playing games and putting sanctions in the name of Human Rights or what ever!



All delays included, the Arjun still can replace the T-72 as the years pass by. The Challenger, Abrams etc., will all be around for a long time and Uncle sam has just cancelled his own FMBT program and put his money on upgradeing the existing Abrams tank. Which means we wont get outdated and FMBT wont be needed for another 20 years.

Dont hold your breath on FMBT it wont come till 2035.

 

[sayareakd]

Manc i am sure you will compare funding received by DRDO and what is received by other countries. You have to understand that we have come up with product from shoe string budget, did you forget that ISRO launch rocket was carried on cycle and first satellite on bullock cart. DRDO is no different in funding.