Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

nitesh

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I guess Arjun fans are conveniently forgetting some facts, When DRDO promised to deliver Arjun to IA ? 1999 i think and they readied Arjun by only 2009. Yet you all put blame on IA for not buying it. Its not like IA is sitting on truck load of money which can spend billions on both T-90 and Arjun.

And regarding GSQR, IA must be confused whether to set the requirements of FMBT for 2020 or 3030 going by the previous records of DRDO :p. Hope they dont run to MoD to force IA to buy their products after 10 years .
manc, this is wrong info, after 1195 successful trial, the 15 initital batch models were handed over to IA, then from 1998 it is on different trials which includes ACURT also, which basically tests how the IA logistics can handle the machine. Please don't twists the facts to suit agendas
 

plugwater

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manc, this is wrong info, after 1195 successful trial, the 15 initital batch models were handed over to IA, then from 1998 it is on different trials which includes ACURT also, which basically tests how the IA logistics can handle the machine. Please don't twists the facts to suit agendas
I would not call it as successful trials. First batch(5 tanks) was handed over to IA by 2004. ACURT happened in 2007, it failed again. Just because brand new arjuns are marginally better than 10 year old T-90s IA should change its entire strategy.
 

sayareakd

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Manc can you explain if Arjun tank did not fulfill GSQR of IA then the next question which comes to mind is, does T 90S fulfill GSQR of IA?? GSQR has to be same for MBT or it is different for different MBT???
 

Godless-Kafir

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Guys,

I do not agree with a lot of things p2prada has said and there is possibility of him having a bias, but, his posts are by far the most informative and who does not have a bias? What we are seeing is a lot of name-callings going on here and this is really unfortunate.



@Godless-Kafir,

I have highlighted words from selected portions of your post. You are questioning someone's I.Q. What is your I.Q.? What do you mean by 'wet dreams'? What is 'onlee'? What is 'tifen' or 'tiffen'? What is 'trail and error'? What is 'fireing'?

Why so many typos? You were too enraged perhaps? Just in case you did not know, there is an edit button there. Use it.

Some time back you posted a video and got called out, by Vladimir79.

The good thing is that you have provided some valuable links that pose a valid challenge to p2prada's arguments. That, however is not an excuse to resort to name-calling.



@Blood,


You are even worse. What do you mean by 'fanboy'? How many of p2prada's posts have you read?

This is not YouTube.

Read completely.
V
V

Typo are are intended onlee, if you haven't noticed that.

I was responding to him generalizing of everyone who supports Arjun as having Fragile Egos and inability to understand a silly issue like T-90 and T-72 are evolved from the same stock! We dont know that? LMAO! I should take that childish insight as something profound and not respond to his self righteous indignation?

Also how would it be informative of him when he is wrong? Simply because something sounds rational and convening does not make it right.

Why should i care about a foreigner like Vladmir when i was the one who spoke with the Scientists and Vladmir is just a foreigner who wants to prove the superiority of his stuff so that they can sell it to us or should i care for kids and NRI sitting in foreign countries with his new found pragmatism and realism as result of moving into western countries!! Some of us learnt our realism and pragmatism in India onlee, we wont be surprised if we settle in the west.

Some of you may have different POV, thats ok but to argue against links, sources and proof or to simply keep over looking proof because you dont believe Indian or DRDOs quality and ability to make good tanks or sight past delays as reasons cant be proof by itself. Kaveri is not successful, agreed who is arguing against that? but atleast please learn to take time to read why it failed or learn basics like thrust, this guy p2prada in a recent comment did not even know the Volvo engine on the Gripen was just an F-404 and he said they developed the engine for much cheaper price than India!! Why throw out such un-researched comments with so much confidence?

I have been in Bharat Rakshak since 1997 or 98 and i have been following these things for over 13years now, waiting for them to get inducted and seeing every failures while takeing time to BASH and ARGUE against the scientists in every Aero India show, we really take time to LEARN and debate the REAL issues and to not to slay it and cripple ingenious efforts. Get that? Microsoft Windows is one of the most glitch prone and criticized programs in the world, Bill Gates did not shut shop because of trolls yelling at him, he kept at it and evolved his system. Just because the New I-Phone had a major glitch with its inability to receive signals while held on the right hand did not mean they had to shut down the company. Everything is process to evolution, you dont even give a baby room to evolved and commit mistakes and you want him to be Brad Pit right away then your ability to understand is POOR. Arjun is a baby and it will evolve over the period of 20years. Thats how most western tanks evolved.

The whole point is to have an educated debate about what actually the problem is thats what bugs me with people who criticize, please do CRITICIZE no one cares for that but know what the ISSUES ARE FIRST before criticizing. We wont except throwing away LCA,Arjun or any of the systems, everything is subject to trail and error in other words evolution based on the area and environment it is born in, we know our Country does not provide the best environment for this and thats exactly why we want to keep pushing through all the FAILURES. Failure does not mean I'm a failure; It does mean I have not yet succeeded.

You people want to GIVE UP and trash everything that is done and by stuff in the market, we will end up not even able to match Pakistan in production.

I am not responding further to your GIVE UP and BUY mindset. Take care. We wont agree.
 
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Yusuf

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[hl] For me what matters at the end of the day is not to have reported posts for use of profanity and personal attacks. So make sure that does not happen. Otherwise, p2p is entitled to his opinion. He is a "STAR MEMBER" and well respected by both critics as well as fans. I dont want to see reported posts for bad mouthing. [/hl]
 

plugwater

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Manc can you explain if Arjun tank did not fulfill GSQR of IA then the next question which comes to mind is, does T 90S fulfill GSQR of IA?? GSQR has to be same for MBT or it is different for different MBT???
We bought the best tank available in the market when Arjun failed. You dont expect IA to wait for Arjun to get ready to maintain its edge over Pak Army, do you ?
 

sayareakd

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We bought the best tank available in the market when Arjun failed.
Brother you want to say that since Arjun tank did not fulfill GSQR of IA then IA went in and find best tank available in market. That time whole host of tank which was close to our GSQR were available from Britain to France and even Israel.

BTW if you go back to history as to why the Arjun which was suppose to be T80 type of tank end up as leopard type of tank. Then you will get all the answers. It was good that US did not supply Pakistan with M1A1 tanks or else we would have been in big trouble.

T90S was purchased in hurry due to the fact that Pakistan purchase T80UD from Ukraine, that time Indian Army had T72M1 tanks. IA went to Russia and they offered T90 tank and IA bought those T90S version of tanks that too without any active protection system, instead IA added few more ERA on T90 tanks.

More or less T90S, T80UD and Alkhalid can do same things (i am not talking about protection of tank), just that T90S is better then the two. If you take what weapons they can fire, it is almost same, even range is almost same.

BTW please remember export version of tanks/equipments are always inferior to the home made version of tank as far as Russian is concern and same goes with US.
 

plugwater

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Saya, Arjun did not fulfill GSQR in 1999 but it did in 2009, But its just too late.
We were under sanction so noone was ready to offer us any tanks to counter T-80, So we bought T-90.
 

p2prada

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I am stating a fact here Army GSQR was an important part to the fault with Arjun. They did'nt want a tank with the Arjuns GSQR when it was ready for them.
Normally a project that has run it's course is actually cancelled. It was on MoD's insistence that Arjun carried on. Had it been the Army's choice they would have cancelled Arjun a long time ago. However it is not their prerogative.

This was the case for valid reasons there were changes in the situation , delays foremost among them. They should have have been wiser at formulating that GSQR at the start.
GSQR stated the tank to ready for induction in 2000, with hundreds of them in service by now. Do you see that?

The Indian Army has held an "international seminar on future MBTs" back in 2008 ,
where
An international conference on tanks does not meant GSQR should be initiated the very next day at dawn.

Its 2011 they still don't know what they want ,
The army already have finalized the requirements for all we know. It is a typical stereotypical nonsense we resort to when we don't really know what's happening.

The only reason why the Army is being criticized is because the Arjun is a fail and they did not buy it. Had the Arjun been inducted in 1000s and even if GSQR for FMBT took 100 years to formulate, there wouldn't have been a single criticism on the Army.

Now explain you hold international conference in 08 , where it is officially sanctioned to create the GSQR , its 2011 today and all you have to show is draft PSQR(which contained unrealistic requirement) , with the GQSR not even ready till late 2013.
How the hell does this take 5 years. i Am not being irrational i'm asking question based on what i see.
You are confused about a lot of things. DRDO did not tell GSQR would be given in 2013, they said they want to finalize the design in 2013. It means they are expecting GSQR to be handed over within this year. This will give DRDO a 2 year time to study, design and finalize the design. Knowing DRDO, they are the ones who will take a longer time. They are claiming stuff, not Army.

WE are talking about our most high profile project for the Army , something that is expected to form the backbone of force.
Can't that be created in such manner that it would be valid 15 years down the line.
I don't understand your point. In one sentence you say it should be valid 15 years down the line, the next moment you say this:
We are talking about formulating realistic requirements for tank that will form the core of all Armour formations
So, who do you want to formulate the GSQR? If the army wants lasers, you say it is not realistic. But if the Army says it will be valid 15 years down the line, you say they should provide a realistic design. Your own words show your confusion.

Livefist: COLUMN: MMRCA, The Right Choice For The Wrong Reasons

Its DRDO's fault if it gets delayed beyond the 2020 deadline for production models , even though it has no GSQR as of today not even the PSQR , and it wont have the GSQR.
When DRDO says they can have the prototype ready by 2017, then it is their duty to deliver. DRDO says they will finalize the design in 2013 and field the first prototype by 2017. If the GSQR is delayed from the army's side, then the time line is obviously adjusted. For eg: If the GSQR states a prototype trial is required in 7 years and if the army gives the GSQR in 2012, then it is obvious the prototype should be ready in 2019. If DRDO takes longer than 2019, then it is DRDO's fault.

The Army has never made unrealistic demands. But DRDO has failed to live up to the Army's expectations.

For eg: Look at HAL. They are an example of how LM or Boeing work. They always promise less, but deliver more. When ALH came, it surpassed GSQR. When LCH came, it received concrete orders from the IAF the minute a second prototype took to the air. Even though the ALH and LCH still use foreign made parts, HAL never denied they will not do so. They never made empty promises, they always delivered on the promises they made. They consistently claimed there are things they cannot do and will require foreign help in electronics and other aspects. But then they also say they will reduce foreign dependency over time which is currently happening.

When LCA's second prototype took to the air, the Air Force was still laughing. Comparatively the MKI has been a huge success. This was something handled well by HAL and therefore, they were the ones who were selected for the PAKFA JV. HAL delivers, no critic will say otherwise. But it is not the same with DRDO. All through the history of DRDO, it is DRDO which has delayed the project by many years for whatever reasons.

If the F-35B fails to achieve it's objectives, then the Marines will cancel the project as fast as a a donkey runs when he sees red hot tongs. They will not hesitate. Our Army has been accommodating of DRDO's wishes, to the point where the Army is inducting Arjuns which will never form part of their offensive corps.

FMBT has already been delayed and its not DRDO's fault and this is concerning. I am legitimately concerned the GSQR will not be up to scrap and DRDO would be trying to develop a tank the army will inevitably not want
We don't know if FMBT has been delayed or not. We are judging this with just one article. The article maintains the GSQR has been delayed by 6 months. But how are we to know that without official confirmation? This isn't 20 years down the line when we have a better picture. All of this is happening now and we will not know for many more years on what is happening with the FMBT.

In the article you yourself posted, there is something that is of great importance that has always been conveniently been forgotten and which the good Admiral highlights;

Livefist: COLUMN: MMRCA, The Right Choice For The Wrong Reasons
The MoD has neither the expertise nor the inclination to call for professional studies regarding national security issues. Therefore no critical examination or cost-benefit analysis has ever been undertaken on (for example) the continuing future relevance of weapon-systems such as battle-tanks, aircraft-carriers or short-range ballistic missiles in the Indian context, or the impact of an anti-ballistic missile defence system on deterrence stability. In such a scenario all wish-lists from the Services (and DRDO) become sacrosanct and, eventually, receive MoD approval.
This is of such great critical importance that it is impossible to ignore. All top militaries do this and India is now one among those top militaries. We currently have an admiral who has questioned the relevance of battle tanks, and this is something a lot of countries like the US and Russia have studied. We don't really know what they are planning, but one thing is for sure, the first time hostilities are started the Americans will send in their BCTs and tanks will follow much later depending on the feasibility of deploying tanks.

What I have stated still stands. Battle tanks can be picked up by aircraft from many kilometres and engaged with deadly force. With armoured groups as they are today, it will be a massacre. We are currently seeing that in Libya. NATO has already announced hundreds of vehicles have been destroyed in the first week of the war alone, these include tanks. The numbers stand at over 100 tanks destroyed followed by another 100 APCs and IFVs with air strikes alone.

You sound like glen beck :|
Sorry but Hitler compressions on any thing always piss's me off.
Unfortunately I don't understand the metaphor.

Hitler is a typical example of how his ego and pride did not allow him to listen to better men when it came to war and thus made grave mistakes in the German plans that ultimately led to his downfall. So, I don't understand why that should piss you off.
 

sayareakd

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Saya, Arjun did not fulfill GSQR in 1999 but it did in 2009, But its just too late.
We were under sanction so noone was ready to offer us any tanks to counter T-80, So we bought T-90.
Manc issue is if T90 could not have fulfill GSQR then why not go for something which does, they they thought T90S without GSQR, then they would have very well asked Arjun without GSQR. Look Russians has rob us for everything from gun to its armor when TOT was negotiated.
 

p2prada

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Thanks Pmaitra as well as Yusuf.

@Yusuf
I don't deem it fit to answer to the posts made by certain people who cannot carry out a mature discussion to save their lives. You wont find me reporting their posts. The world can see the quality they have to offer and judge them based upon that. There is nothing for me to prove.

Cheers.
 

plugwater

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Manc issue is if T90 could not have fulfill GSQR then why not go for something which does, they they thought T90S without GSQR, then they would have very well asked Arjun without GSQR. Look Russians has rob us for everything from gun to its armor when TOT was negotiated.
We went for something superior which can counter T-80, Nothing wrong in that. I don't understand why IA should select Arjun which has no qualities of MBT in 1999.
Russian will rob us, Americans will rob us until our DRDO deliver the products on time, We have to suck it up.
 

sayareakd

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We went for something superior which can counter T-80, Nothing wrong in that. I don't understand why IA should select Arjun which has no qualities of MBT in 1999.
:frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty: Arjun does not fulfill GSQR and so is T90S if they wanted to go for superior tank Arjun was ready, may be it does not fulfill GSQR still it is superior to T80UD or anything which was in Pakistan's possession.

Later on when T90S were delivered in 2001 it was found that it is inferior to rectified Arjun tank.

I dont understand why two standard for Indian MBT:fear::fear:
 

plugwater

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:frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty: Arjun does not fulfill GSQR and so is T90S if they wanted to go for superior tank Arjun was ready, may be it does not fulfill GSQR still it is superior to T80UD or anything which was in Pakistan's possession.

Later on when T90S were delivered in 2001 it was found that it is inferior to rectified Arjun tank.

I dont understand why two standard for Indian MBT:fear::fear:
:D
No saya, Arjun was not ready and it got no chance against T-80. We found T-90S inferior to Arjun in certain parameters last year not in 2001.
 

pankaj nema

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The purchase of T 90 was absolutely necessary .

Arjun tank has turned the corner and out gunned and out runned the T 90 tank only RECENTLY

Just 2 years ago Arjun was still facing troubles

We need T 90 / T 72 in Punjab and Jammu regions

Arjun is suitable for Rajasthan and Gujarat areas where there are no river crossings

T 72 can also be used in Ladakh and Sikkim

So every tank has its role
 

sayareakd

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Just 2 years ago Arjun was still facing troubles

Picture has P-18 which means production 18 number tank, this pic is of Defexpo 2008, we are in 2011.

Arjun is suitable for Rajasthan and Gujarat areas where there are no river crossings


this image can be explain like this




i rest my case.
 
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ace009

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What's that? Is it an air-intake Snorkel for crossing rivers/ waterbodies?
 

p2prada

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Brother you want to say that since Arjun tank did not fulfill GSQR of IA then IA went in and find best tank available in market. That time whole host of tank which was close to our GSQR were available from Britain to France and even Israel.
I am surprised. As a journalist I am sure you understand what is the meaning of sanctions? Can you tell me which tank was available for India from the west between 1998 and 2001?

Also can you find out which of these tanks on offer were at $2.5million?

T90S was purchased in hurry due to the fact that Pakistan purchase T80UD from Ukraine, that time Indian Army had T72M1 tanks. IA went to Russia and they offered T90 tank and IA bought those T90S version of tanks that too without any active protection system, instead IA added few more ERA on T90 tanks.
There was no tank at the time which carried a decent APS system which they would have sold to India. Even today only Israeli tanks come with an all aspect APS. All others come with an optical APS which was of little use to India because even today the Pakistani tanks are not equipped with an ATGM. The Shtora or GIAT are useless to India.

The T-90 not having an APS is moot because even Arjun Mk1 does not have APS.

BTW please remember export version of tanks/equipments are always inferior to the home made version of tank as far as Russian is concern and same goes with US.
I have established our home grown system has been inferior to the imported system.
 

sayareakd

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I am surprised. As a journalist I am sure you understand what is the meaning of sanctions? Can you tell me which tank was available for India from the west between 1998 and 2001?
Who is Journalist here ??? i understand meaning of sanctions, i did my B Com (H) and cleared International Law paper.

However, other nations, such as Israel, France and Russia, did not condemn India's tests. Israel issued a statement praising India's tests and declaring that India's reasons for carrying out nuclear tests were the same as Israel's.[2]
Pokhran-II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also can you find out which of these tanks on offer were at $2.5million?
non, you want cheap tanks, china can give you cheap tanks, Tank crews are trained next best to fighter plane pilots and are most valuable and trained manpower. Markava, Leopard could have have been sold.

There was no tank at the time which carried a decent APS system which they would have sold to India. Even today only Israeli tanks come with an all aspect APS. All others come with an optical APS which was of little use to India because even today the Pakistani tanks are not equipped with an ATGM. The Shtora or GIAT are useless to India.
have you heard about 9M119 Refleks for T80UD, check the pic


Al Khalid uses chines version of 9M119 Refleks. you can check it frame 1.30

YouTube - ‪Pakistan Army Al-Khalid Tank - پاک فوج‬‏

The T-90 not having an APS is moot because even Arjun Mk1 does not have APS.
you want to argue about protection of Arjun with T90. If better system is available in APS then GOI should have buy it.

I have established our home grown system has been inferior to the imported system.
yeah you are right, not far, home made Generals and solders are inferior to imported generals and solders.
 

plugwater

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However, other nations, such as Israel, France and Russia, did not condemn India's tests. Israel issued a statement praising India's tests and declaring that India's reasons for carrying out nuclear tests were the same as Israel's.[2]
Pokhran-II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Pokhran-II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Saya, I have seen people putting blame on sanction for LCA delays in LCA thread. If its true that we could not even get little help from Israel or any other countries for LCA, how do you expect them to sell tanks to us ?

Israel cant even do anything against US now, Remember how US blocked Israel in selling us the radar even though our relationship with US are pretty good!!
 

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