Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

gogbot

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A now has no choice but to eventually go in for more Arjuns , they will need new tanks soon enough , when the procurement order is places , unless Arjun can't meet the specs the order will not be passed to foreign suppliers
Here is the indication of wild goose chase again :)
Well lets be honest about that .

If the tank is really that much better than the Arjun , we would be better of with the foreign tank, right ?
we were angry with the Army for not sideline the Arjun but for doing so to get an inferior product

If however , the tank is inferior to or similar to the ARJUN , DRDO alone now has enough power to force Arjun down their throats.
 

nitesh

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Well lets be honest about that .

If the tank is really that much better than the Arjun , we would be better of with the foreign tank, right ?
we were angry with the Army for not sideline the Arjun but for doing so to get an inferior product

If however , the tank is inferior to or similar to the ARJUN , DRDO alone now has enough power to force Arjun down their throats.
gobot the point is about supporting home grown products no one is saying stop imports completely but don't ignore home grown products to the hilt. Till this attitude changes things are not looking bright
 

AkhandBharat

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gobot the point is about supporting home grown products no one is saying stop imports completely but don't ignore home grown products to the hilt. Till this attitude changes things are not looking bright
Oh stop being so negative, will you? Arjun is a stellar example of how the DRDO was able to take the help of media, defence minstry etc to overrule the commission-eating generals of the army's corrupt top brass and force them to buy a superior product. This will bring the army into the scrutiny of the defence ministry and the deals with foreign manufacturers will be srutinized more before finalizing.

Give credit where its due.
 

san

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Sridhar

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Speculative image of Arjun Mk II



Image courtesy : IDRW
 

nitesh

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Oh stop being so negative, will you? Arjun is a stellar example of how the DRDO was able to take the help of media, defence minstry etc to overrule the commission-eating generals of the army's corrupt top brass and force them to buy a superior product. This will bring the army into the scrutiny of the defence ministry and the deals with foreign manufacturers will be srutinized more before finalizing. Give credit where its due.
The way the order i given i not the way to treat home grown product still after so much nuisance what arjun get 124 more that's it but foreign one gets much much more then that. till people who have scuttled the project for so long have not got any kick in the butt there lies the problem.
 

nandu

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124 more Arjuns, but indigenous tank has 58% foreign content

20 May 2010 : In March, Livefist had reported that "Army will not order more Arjuns" giving a MoD source and some reasons. So the latest order for another 124 Arjuns would have been a painful process for the Army, made possible due to the recent success of the Arjun vs the T-90 in field trials and the success of DRDO's pressurising tactics.

A sign that more Arjuns were about to be ordered were given when the Defence Minister Antony spoke about Arjun Mark II in last week's press releases about DRDO's re-structure. The latest order of 124 Arjun Main Battle Tanks (MBTs) over and above the existing order of 124 Arjun tanks, which the army had committed to Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) earlier. The development follows the success of the indigenous MBT Arjun in the recent gruelling desert trials.

The decision to order additional tanks has not surprised many as the indigenous battle tank had proved its worthiness in the desert trails conducted by the Indian Army and DRDO earlier this year. Financial Express reports that during the trials Arjun MBT was 30% more efficient than the Russian T-90s.

In fact, the DRDO had put down more than 100 parameters ahead of the trials in which the MBT performed well. Hindustan Times reports Defence Ministry spokesperson saying, "After many years of trials, it has now proved its worth by its superb performance under various circumstances such as driving cross-country over rugged sand dunes, detecting, observing and quickly engaging targets and accurately hitting stationary and moving targets."

The Times of India reports that in spite of additional orders and a stellar performance by the Arjuns during the comparative trials with the Russian T- 90s, the army maintains that T-90s will continue to be its front line tanks. Hence, the force's requirement for 1,781 MBTs to replace the older T-55 and T-72 tanks will primarily be met through the progressive induction of 1,657 T-90S tanks.

Even though Arjun is said to be indigenous, nearly 58% (by cost) is foreign equipment. With India's push for integration in to the global defence-manufacturing value chain, today, it is not viable/cost-effective and therefore not desirable for India to aim for 100% indigenisation (like the Saras civilian plane). But after 3 decades of development if you only have 42% indigenous content then it is misleading to call it an indigenous platform. Understandably, unless you have large orders foreign vendors will not be interested in transfer of technology and will sell systems at higher prices. While reverse engineering is difficult, the percentage of indigenous content will go up over time and hopefully the public and private sector companies will have a larger participation in the program.

As per the Indian army's plan, 657 T-90s would be imported from Russia at a cost of Rs 8,525 crores and another 1,000 T-90s would be manufactured under license by Avadi Heavy Vehicles Factory. With the twin order, the total Arjuns to be inducted in the army would be 248, which is still half the 500 tanks that DRDO insists the Army should buy to bring cost rationalisation.

The project for the design and development of the MBT Arjun was approved by the Government in 1974 with an aim to give the required indigenous cutting edge to our Mechanised Forces. However, due to a series of problems the development of tank could not be completed on time, thereby delaying armoured modernization and forcing India to look for options abroad.

http://www.8ak.in/
 

Armand2REP

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This must be fake. There will be no major change in its structure. This looks like a brand new tank.
Why must it be fake? Arjun looks much like the Leo 2A4, stands to reason the Mk2 will look much like Leo 2A6. =heheh
 

gogbot

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India Reverses Gear, Puts Arjun Tank Back in Production

I have some speculation , but first read this section from the article

In May 2010, following desert trials alongside the T-90S, the Army changed course somewhat. Arjun production would double to 248.

The Army's plan still calls for 1,657 T-90S "Bhishma" tanks at about 12 crore (currently $2.78 million) each if prices remain stable, about 1,000 of which are slated to be built in India by Avadi Heavy Industries, the same firm that builds the Arjuns. They will be joined by just 248 Arjuns at about 16.8 crore (currently $3.92 million) each, as well as 692 older T-72 tanks upgraded to the T-72M1 "Ajeya" standard. This overall plan changes the force structure proposed in 2006, from 3,780 tanks (1,302 T-90s and 2,480 T-72s) to 2,597 higher-end tanks.
IA reducing number of tanks ?
come on Why would India ever reduce the number of tanks it has , we are already in a short fall as it is.

But according to this article the vast majority of the T-72 fleet will either be put in reserve or retired.

Does that mean , some new tank will eventually end up replacing those numbers.

Could there be a major re-think going on the Army ?
Perhaps the Arjun or the mk-II has a lot riding on it ?
 

gogbot

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Why must it be fake? Arjun looks much like the Leo 2A4, stands to reason the Mk2 will look much like Leo 2A6. =heheh
that same logic could be employed by a fanboy for making a fake .

Don't get me wrong , i would very much like the Arjun to take design ques from German tank design , who themselves have a very good history of fine tanks.

But that picture is very much un-substantiated.
]
 

Rahul Singh

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This must be fake. There will be no major change in its structure. This looks like a brand new tank.
Caption already says it's a speculative image. But calling it fake is not judicious. If you observe this pic closely then you will pick that apart from front side of turret(area adjacent to gun root) rest of the turret is looking different and that only because of addition of few gazette, panoramic 360* optical sight, some antenna, creation of flowing lines and cutting of sharp angles on surface. Apart from turret i can see better looking engine exhaust and added protection for wheels and tracks with, i guess, hook-in hook-out armour sheets.

In sum this speculative image of Arjun MK-2 looks different from MK-1 in the same way T-72 looks from CIA and T-90S looks from T-90 Bhism
 

nitesh

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DRDO is still hopeful, but will DGMF listen?:

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gene...nk Buy, Missile Test Give Indian DRDO A Boost

Though DRDO was pitching three to four times more than the current order, it is pleased with what it got. "This is the best of a bad deal after so many trials and modifications," former DRDO Chief Advisor K.G. Narayanan tells AVIATION WEEK. "With the current order, the total Arjun MBTs would go up to 248. The order could have been more, maybe 500-plus, but then it is a good sign that an Indian machine has finally proved its battleworthiness."

Each Arjun costs around Rs 16 crore ($3.6 million), and DRDO is confident that the cost will come down if orders increase. "In production parlance, more orders means less cost and we are confident that it's a matter of time before we get further orders," a source says.
 

Rahul Singh

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DRDO is hopeful because they are confident to roll out MK-2 is time with deadly add-on plus they know that in sometime from now it will become impossible for DGMF to justify their plans for spending billions on so called radical upgradation of obsolete T-72 than buying little costly(per unit) brand new 'Arjun'.

I believe another order for 500+ Arjun is just a matter of time.
 

nitesh

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DRDO is hopeful because they are confident to roll out MK-2 is time with deadly add-on plus they know that in sometime from now it will become impossible for DGMF to justify their plans for spending billions on so called radical upgradation of obsolete T-72 than buying little costly(per unit) brand new 'Arjun'.

I believe another order for 500+ Arjun is just a matter of time.
Rahul is the official specs of MK2 is out? Or it is the mythical FMBT?
 

sayareakd

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better start court martial proceedings against the officers for ordering substandard tank, ASAP.
 

Rahul Singh

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Rahul is the official specs of MK2 is out? Or it is the mythical FMBT?
Sorry, i have no idea about official specifications of MK-2 and interestingly Army too have no idea about their GSQR for FMBT. After saying this i can't even say "Jokes apart".

Not official but my reading suggest that most radical in MK-2 will be DRDO developed 1500 HP engine(i guess it will be a gas turbine engine). Apart from it my talking with associated people at 'DEFXPO 2008' say that they are thinking to put BFSR on Arjun. For what, my bad i did not asked? But i guess, for detecting attack helicopters.
 

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When Arjun beat T-90BY : Shankar Roy chowdhury ( former Chief of Army Staff)

"Shootout at the OK Corral?" The Indian Army would undoubtedly frown at such frivolity, but scattered media reports and Internet chatter indicate that during the recent comparative trials pitching a squadron (14 tanks) of Russian T-90 tanks, currently the mainstay of the Army's armoured forces, and an equivalent number of India's indigenous Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT), the latter is said to have "performed creditably" and "outshot and outran" its Russian competitor. Details available in the public domain are understandably sketchy, but even allowing for journalistic hyperbole, these comparative trials should be of landmark significance as an indicator of the giant strategic strides by indigenous defence research and heavy engineering, something with which the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) Avadi would finally have reason to be pleased with themselves. For their part, the Indian Army and its Armoured Corps who had been extremely firm and demanding users accepting no compromises in standards of performance, now perhaps require to revisit their stand, and approve the current successful model of the Arjun for series production and induction into service as the country's principal Main Battle Tank. It is to be sincerely hoped that when the time comes to take a decision the Indian Army will select the indigenous MBT vis-a-vis the T-90 as the replacement for the T-72 fleet, now well on its way to obsolescence.

The long and intensely tortuous development process of the Arjun has earned it considerable notoriety as a landmark case study of bad project management which crystallised and hardened cynicism amongst the user community, and though the tank still remains technologically contemporary, its prolonged gestation has already made it due for midlife upgradation. This is not unusual in series tank production, but with Arjun this will have to be incorporated on the production line with the very initial batch itself as and when series production commences, again only if substantial orders flow in from the users. In this context, it is understood that the DRDO would like an initial production order of 300-500 numbers of Arjun tanks to be placed, instead of the present 124, understandable as well as justifiable, because a larger run of initial production will facilitate rectification and upgradation on the production line. Generations of armour officers (now mostly superannuated) still shudder at recollections of the Vijayanta where an unproven and basically unsatisfactory design procured in a hurry turned into a highly defect prone tank which had to be intensively modified along the way on the production line until the later models were quite different from the initial batches (but nevertheless remained unsatisfactory!). Transfer of technology is also dependent on production numbers because foreign vendors refuse to transfer their best technology for limited production series if further production appears unlikely.

However, the sunny side is that the development processes has already stimulated growth in small but very high technology manufacturing agencies even if production lines for prototype models have been quite limited. These agencies are of course capital intensive, but have mainly come up in the medium and small scale private sector which is surely encouraging.

Retention of user confidence in the Arjun requires a sustained process of engineering and quality control by the DRDO and the ordnance factories which has not been their strong point so far. Unless the government succeeds in enforcing accountability on its agencies, for continuous technological upgradation of the tank while on the production line as well as quality control standards, MBT Arjun, a tank of contemporary design, will again loose the confidence of the user community. It is evident that MBT Arjun is emerging as touchstone case for the DRDO and HVF Avadi to prove their detractors wrong!

There is a requirement for government to break the mould of its traditional mindset and associate the considerable talents and capacities of the private sector as well as technological academia with the development and production of the Arjun. The private sector is better aware of the importance of continuous quality control for market survival amidst intense competition, something to which ordnance factories, used to assured monopoly markets over the armed forces, are not accustomed, and often accept lower quality standards because their commercial survival is not a factor.

At the end of it all, the Arjun remains a good standard design, extremely badly executed so far which can still be rescued but only if the ministry of defence can enforce accountability on the DRDO and the Ordnance Factory Board for technological upgradation, design rectification and enforcement of quality control within a laid down timeframe and as an ongoing process. This did not appear to be the case earlier, when the initial production batch of five tanks were formally handed over to the Army with much fanfare, and then immediately retrieved by the factory after the ceremony to rectify quality shortfalls as demanded by the exasperated users! These and other negative experiences have hardened user cynicism, but all that must become water under the bridge now, and users must accept Arjun as a Mark I version to be upgraded and improved during further production into a Mark II and beyond. The extension of the MBT programme into variants and derivatives based on the Arjun chassis must also begin to take shape, such as the planned "Bhim" self-propelled 155mm tracked artillery system for which earlier trials to adapt the T-72 tank chassis "on the cheap" had failed signally. (Similar ill-judged experimentation with the T-90 would be best avoided!).

In a wider national context, fielding the MBT Arjun is important for India's contemporary and future strategic leadership as well as nascent military-industrial complex. Indigenous capabilities for development and production of sophisticated capital defence equipment are vital strategic capabilities for which Arjun, Tejas, Agni and the ATV (advanced technology vessel) have to be seen in their true geopolitical perspective as statements by an India seeking a world presence in the 21st century

Gen. Shankar Roychowdhury is a former Chief of Army Staff and a former Member of Parliament
 

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Arjun means INVINCIBLE & it has proved. In addition, new order is a great news for it's future. Arjun MK-II development should be done on full thrust with the aim to infuse future techologies lke stealth, light weight armour, EW capability, ATM Jammers, multi calibre barrel, auto load & firing, high manuverability not to mention crew comfort & safety.

DRDO should understand a world class product is always in demand & Arjun can be exported to friendly countries as well if army shows indifference.
 

enlightened1

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124 more Arjuns, but indigenous tank has 58% foreign content

20 May 2010 : In March, Livefist had reported that "Army will not order more Arjuns" giving a MoD source and some reasons. So the latest order for another 124 Arjuns would have been a painful process for the Army, made possible due to the recent success of the Arjun vs the T-90 in field trials and the success of DRDO's pressurising tactics.

A sign that more Arjuns were about to be ordered were given when the Defence Minister Antony spoke about Arjun Mark II in last week's press releases about DRDO's re-structure. The latest order of 124 Arjun Main Battle Tanks (MBTs) over and above the existing order of 124 Arjun tanks, which the army had committed to Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) earlier. The development follows the success of the indigenous MBT Arjun in the recent gruelling desert trials.

The decision to order additional tanks has not surprised many as the indigenous battle tank had proved its worthiness in the desert trails conducted by the Indian Army and DRDO earlier this year. Financial Express reports that during the trials Arjun MBT was 30% more efficient than the Russian T-90s.

In fact, the DRDO had put down more than 100 parameters ahead of the trials in which the MBT performed well. Hindustan Times reports Defence Ministry spokesperson saying, "After many years of trials, it has now proved its worth by its superb performance under various circumstances such as driving cross-country over rugged sand dunes, detecting, observing and quickly engaging targets and accurately hitting stationary and moving targets."

The Times of India reports that in spite of additional orders and a stellar performance by the Arjuns during the comparative trials with the Russian T- 90s, the army maintains that T-90s will continue to be its front line tanks. Hence, the force's requirement for 1,781 MBTs to replace the older T-55 and T-72 tanks will primarily be met through the progressive induction of 1,657 T-90S tanks.

Even though Arjun is said to be indigenous, nearly 58% (by cost) is foreign equipment. With India's push for integration in to the global defence-manufacturing value chain, today, it is not viable/cost-effective and therefore not desirable for India to aim for 100% indigenisation (like the Saras civilian plane). But after 3 decades of development if you only have 42% indigenous content then it is misleading to call it an indigenous platform. Understandably, unless you have large orders foreign vendors will not be interested in transfer of technology and will sell systems at higher prices. While reverse engineering is difficult, the percentage of indigenous content will go up over time and hopefully the public and private sector companies will have a larger participation in the program.

As per the Indian army's plan, 657 T-90s would be imported from Russia at a cost of Rs 8,525 crores and another 1,000 T-90s would be manufactured under license by Avadi Heavy Vehicles Factory. With the twin order, the total Arjuns to be inducted in the army would be 248, which is still half the 500 tanks that DRDO insists the Army should buy to bring cost rationalisation.

The project for the design and development of the MBT Arjun was approved by the Government in 1974 with an aim to give the required indigenous cutting edge to our Mechanised Forces. However, due to a series of problems the development of tank could not be completed on time, thereby delaying armoured modernization and forcing India to look for options abroad.

http://www.8ak.in/
Isn't that Manu Sood's website? lol anyway...

Here's from a press release of DRDO
The percentage of import content is 60% in the first lot of 124 tanks to be productionised, which will be reduced to under 45% with the manufacture of first 200 tanks and under 30% with the manufacture of about 500 tanks.
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2008/07/exclusive-drdos-statement-calling-for.html
 

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