Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[SARTHAK]

You are very much welcome bro. By the way could you please send me the link of that Video in which Alpha Defence claimed that it is not the Final Configuration? Please post it here if you can.

i tried searching for it with youtube search but cannot find it

 

[Super Flanker]

i tried searching for it with youtube search but cannot find it

No problem. It's ok if you can't find it but by chance if you do come across it than please send me the Link of the Video. Thank you

 

[Vinod DX9]

This 125 mm one for better ammo with much higher DoP= 800 mm RHAe! All these projects were mentioned in official Make in India list. Whereas, iirc , better ammunition for existing gun and new gun & better ammunition- thus two projects were mentioned at this moment I can see just one where both seems are merged in a single one .

 

[Vinod DX9]

Yes, final configuration of Arjun Mk. 1A awaits . Need to be confirmed what's on that square box and what is attached to the turret. And Arjun Mk. 2 as widely reported (by credible sources) will be lighter but much advanced variant.

 

[Angel of War]

So Basically it’s not a contract for 118 tanks. Only for 5, then subject to trials, another 113 might be given? Similar to Dhanush, where after 15 Howitzers, army stopped further production of balance 99

does dhanush exist anymore ?

 

[THESIS THORON]

This 125 mm one for better ammo with much higher DoP= 800 mm RHAe! All these projects were mentioned in official Make in India list. Whereas, iirc , better ammunition for existing gun and new gun & better ammunition- thus two projects were mentioned at this moment I can see just one where both seems are merged in a single one .

what is expected timeline according to you ??

 

[ladder]

So Basically it’s not a contract for 118 tanks. Only for 5, then subject to trials, another 113 might be given? Similar to Dhanush, where after 15 Howitzers, army stopped further production of balance 99

Source of the news for Dhanush howitzer? And if the source is credible, please update the Indian Army Artillery thread as well.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

You can't be Serious! 30 months? That means 2.5 years just to deliver 5 Production standard Tanks to the IA? Also are the Gun, Engine and Transmission of the upcoming Arjun MK1A Indigenous or Imported?

I just quoted news reports from February 2021, when Modi handed over key of Arjun MK1A in a formal ceremony. But the final contract was only signed in September 2021. So, you can expect 5 production standard prototypes only by March 2024.

Regarding your other question about MK1A :
Gun: 120 mm rifled (indegeneous)
Engine: 1400 hp MTU engine (imported)
Transmission: Renk transmission (imported).

 

[mist_consecutive]

Contract finally signed in September 2021. 30 months for manufacturing and delivering 5 production standard prototypes to the Army. The army will then put these 5 prototypes to trial. After that they will give go ahead to manufacture the rest 113 MK1As.

I just quoted news reports from February 2021, when Modi handed over key of Arjun MK1A in a formal ceremony. But the final contract was only signed in September 2021. So, you can expect 5 production standard prototypes only by March 2024.

Regarding your other question about MK1A :
Gun: 120 mm rifled (indegeneous)
Engine: 1400 hp MTU engine (imported)
Transmission: Renk transmission (imported).

So, we are (supposedly) going to get 113 tanks in the next (~10-15) years which is already sub-standard according to current world standards ?

Why the heck will DRDO take 5 years for 5 prototypes ? Why everybody is so unbothered by our lack of capability ?

Whom should I point the gun here ? DRDO, Army or GoI ?

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

So, we are (supposedly) going to get 113 tanks in the next (~10-15) years which is already sub-standard according to current world standards ?

Why the heck will DRDO take 5 years for 5 prototypes ? Why everybody is so unbothered by our lack of capability ?

Whom should I point the gun here ? DRDO, Army or GoI ?

Not 5 years. 2.5 years or 30 months is required for 5 prototypes.

You must remember that the last MK1 Arjun tank was rolled out in 2011-12 from HVF. It's been 10+ years. The supply chain of Indian MSMEs have vanished. This has to be re-established. No small pvt company is going to sit-idle for such a long time.

In addition, major foreign components have to be imported. This also will take time. No pvt company is willing to indegenize these components for piece meal orders. That is why DRDO expected an order by 2013-14 itself (by that time most of the subsystems were tested, just barring LAHAT firing from main gun), and minimum 500-600 no. to ammortize the cost of the program, and indegenize most of the components. The assembly line was fresh, the supply chain was intact then. However, Army insisted on missile firing capability to 5 km. Then CLGM was developed and proved (by 2016-17). Then Army said it wanted minimum CLGM range to be 500 m. This was proved by 2018. Next, 3 years Army sat on the Arjun files, so as to pass the last batch (457) T-90S from OFB. The Arjun mk1A files finally moved in 2021, for a token order of 118 no.

PS: Army in 2016-17 met with MOD and DRDO officials and demanded that Arjun's hull and turret to be re-designed to bring the weight to 65 tons. This resulted in separation of MK1A and MK2 Arjun project, with no pre-commitment given by Army on MK2 orders. In the meanwhile, Army launched FRCV RFI and sent to global players including manufactureres of NATO MBTs' (which weigh over 60 tons).

 

[Chinmoy]

So, we are (supposedly) going to get 113 tanks in the next (~10-15) years which is already sub-standard according to current world standards ?

Why the heck will DRDO take 5 years for 5 prototypes ? Why everybody is so unbothered by our lack of capability ?

Whom should I point the gun here ? DRDO, Army or GoI ?

Cool Down.

Each of the first 5 prototype would take 6 months which is understandable enough. After that 30 nos would be produced each year. So by 2028 the whole contract would be completed.

Now coming to why it would take 30 months for first 5. The answer lies in supply chain. Mk1A is coming with 90 improvements which means the existing supply change would also need change. So in our case, MIC is nearly non existent and Avadi would be floating tenders for it anew. Now many a times I've already pointed out about the certification process. Even an established vendor would have to recertify their components and it would take time for obvious reason.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

The TWMP of Arjun MK1A weighs 1.5 tons+. Not every tank in a squadrons need those.
This extra 1.5 ton weight can easily be deducted from Arjun MK1A's, if the Army hadn't insisted that every tank have these.
Alternatively, this extra weight can be effectively used for additional ERA coverage of skirts, lower glacis, turret top, cage armour at the rear turret and hull etc. .

 

[omaebakabaka]

Cool Down.

Each of the first 5 prototype would take 6 months which is understandable enough. After that 30 nos would be produced each year. So by 2028 the whole contract would be completed.

Now coming to why it would take 30 months for first 5. The answer lies in supply chain. Mk1A is coming with 90 improvements which means the existing supply change would also need change. So in our case, MIC is nearly non existent and Avadi would be floating tenders for it anew. Now many a times I've already pointed out about the certification process. Even an established vendor would have to recertify their components and it would take time for obvious reason.

Other than missiles and strategic systems, we seem to never be out with serial production of anything in numbers, is it because there are lot of imports? We blame the army, babus and so on but are we really that indigenous in these things on core components? Lot of things do not make sense for not seeing their time in active deployments in numbers....

 

[itsAurea]

Is the hearsay about the Arjun Main Battle Tank true? That it is a failure? The defence ministry entrusted the DRDO with two projects almost 20 years ago: the creation of a combat tank and a multi-barrel rocket launcher system. Arjun was the name given to the former by the DRDO when it was assigned to it in 1974, and Pinaka was given to the latter. After more than two decades, the Arjun is regarded as a colossal failure. Because if this is the case, then why is it present and commonly used up to this day? The military army of India operates more than 120 Arjun Mark tanks.

 

[Love Charger]

Is the hearsay about the Arjun Main Battle Tank true? That it is a failure? The defence ministry entrusted the DRDO with two projects almost 20 years ago: the creation of a combat tank and a multi-barrel rocket launcher system. Arjun was the name given to the former by the DRDO when it was assigned to it in 1974, and Pinaka was given to the latter. After more than two decades, the Arjun is regarded as a colossal failure. Because if this is the case, then why is it present and commonly used up to this day? The military army of India operates more than 120 Arjun Mark tanks.

It's not a failure but a great success. Neither China nor Pakistan can field such a tank
It's costly that's why inducted in just 300 nos , it has helped to develop many breakthrough tech for drdo and indian army , which has helped us to independently upgrade other russian tanks in indian service, like t 72s and t 90s , which we operate in thousands and this tech for arjun is greatly helpful for developing a next generation tank
Regards

 

[Chinmoy]

Other than missiles and strategic systems, we seem to never be out with serial production of anything in numbers, is it because there are lot of imports? We blame the army, babus and so on but are we really that indigenous in these things on core components? Lot of things do not make sense for not seeing their time in active deployments in numbers....

We can't go on with complete indigenization on any project and neither its needed. Complete indigenization would mean cost mothballing which is not good for any project.
Problem with us is that we believe bringing in private companies into defense field is going to solve our problem. But it is not. It would open up entirely new set of can. We need to invest more on our industrial power rather then keeping a myopic view on whole MIC context.

 

[SARTHAK]

i am a noob in tank regime,but can anybody give a simple idea how will arjun mk1a fare against most modernised variant of indian army t90 assuming both have drdo aps

 

[omaebakabaka]

But it is not. It would open up entirely new set of can. We need to invest more on our industrial power rather then keeping a myopic view on whole MIC context.

I would agree with this as it builds the base broadly for all purpose vs just MIC aka China and West vs USSR. But still, already showcased products have seen their deployment in numbers other than missiles or strategic systems and possibly radars. This is concerning, either vested interests blocking or products not good enough or too much tie up into licensing production and critical imports. Army is where I would like to see more indigenous stuff as that is the most critical arm.

 

[Chinmoy]

I would agree with this as it builds the base broadly for all purpose vs just MIC aka China and West vs USSR. But still, already showcased products have seen their deployment in numbers other than missiles or strategic systems and possibly radars. This is concerning, either vested interests blocking or products not good enough or too much tie up into licensing production and critical imports. Army is where I would like to see more indigenous stuff as that is the most critical arm.

Its not vested interest all the time. Its easy for us to think that someone behind the screen is pulling strings all the time by neglecting some plain facts before our eyes. Let me make you understand by a simple example.

Lets say I want a car and you are the designer. Now while developing the prototype, you have designed the whole thing on paper and got my approval. Now while developing the prototype, you have just built the raw chassis of the car. You imported the suspension from some foreign OEM, the engine from another foreign OEM, the wheel from another and so on.
Now while testing it has performed well and upto my expectations. But if I look into the after sales part, it would cost me a lot. So I asked you to use indigenous component to bring down the operating cost. Now for that lets assume you provided me MRF tires instead of Michelin. Now while again testing it with those tires, I found the service to be not upto the mark as previous. Again you jo for lets say, CEAT tires. Again the whole process of testing would be repeated. Now you could see why the testing period for indigenous system drags on and on.
For such a long duration, I can't remain without a car and the next best thing for me is to import one. So where in came the vested interest?

We do give MoD babus and generals undue credit when we say that they are stalling the process of indigenous equipment induction. In reality they don't have that much of authority. Asking for emergency purchase is need of hour from user point of view. If anyone has to be blamed for this sorry state, it has to be the political authority and civil society who have virtually strangled the industrial prowess of the nation. Without a robust industry, you can't imagine a MIC. You are bound to go for imports in such a scenario.

 

[_merlin_]

Its not vested interest all the time. Its easy for us to think that someone behind the screen is pulling strings all the time by neglecting some plain facts before our eyes. Let me make you understand by a simple example.

Lets say I want a car and you are the designer. Now while developing the prototype, you have designed the whole thing on paper and got my approval. Now while developing the prototype, you have just built the raw chassis of the car. You imported the suspension from some foreign OEM, the engine from another foreign OEM, the wheel from another and so on.
Now while testing it has performed well and upto my expectations. But if I look into the after sales part, it would cost me a lot. So I asked you to use indigenous component to bring down the operating cost. Now for that lets assume you provided me MRF tires instead of Michelin. Now while again testing it with those tires, I found the service to be not upto the mark as previous. Again you jo for lets say, CEAT tires. Again the whole process of testing would be repeated. Now you could see why the testing period for indigenous system drags on and on.
For such a long duration, I can't remain without a car and the next best thing for me is to import one. So where in came the vested interest?

We do give MoD babus and generals undue credit when we say that they are stalling the process of indigenous equipment induction. In reality they don't have that much of authority. Asking for emergency purchase is need of hour from user point of view. If anyone has to be blamed for this sorry state, it has to be the political authority and civil society who have virtually strangled the industrial prowess of the nation. Without a robust industry, you can't imagine a MIC. You are bound to go for imports in such a scenario.

If services are so dumb that they don't know current state of DRDO/Indian industry from a technological point of view then they have only themselves to blame. If they didn't know what they were approving then they have no idea what they are doing. I mean they don't know we don't have a MTU equivalent engine or a Renk equivalent transmission or that it takes years to develop such components? Or they don't know that we don't have Michelin tyres?